ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[scy12]

Round 1: 4000 BC to 2260 BC

An isolated start! Now I see why those of you posting spoilers were talking about re-rolling the start. However, I'm disinclined to do so. If I had an early UU, I wouldn't hesitate, but Mehmed has a mid-game UU. In addition, I frequently see people posting on the forum asking how to handle an isolated start, and I think this is a good opportunity for the group mind to tackle that type of game. It's not like we haven't done it before--the Huayna Capac game also featured an isolated start.

I may not be completely isolated: there's another landmass of some type to the northeast which is reachable by triremes, galleys, and work boats. That could be a larger land mass that hosts other civs or could lead to those types of land masses.

Well, obviously, certain things become higher in priority, others lower. So, here are my thoughts on the matter. Let me know if you agree or not.

1. Military - Just enough to deal barbs. I think I should hold off on barracks until other civs are within reach.
2. Cities - Coastal cities are obviously a priority. There's seafood to the northwest, west, and southeast. There are other good potential coastal city sites due south (to claim the copper) and northeast (wheat and cow). I look forward to the dotmaps. Some REXing is in order, I think.
3. Resources - I think either copper or horses are the priority, for defense from barbarians. Which one I go for first really depends on which will be the better city site.
4. Techs - Obviously Fishing -> Sailing becomes a priority. However, with all that jungle to clear, so is Iron Working.
5. Victory Condition - And isolated start always makes me start considering a cultural victory. In which case, we'll need to figure out how to get to Music first for the free Great Artist, and how to get the Sistine Chapel built. However, much may depend on whether other civs are within reach.

SPOILERS. You are free not to answer as this can effect negatively or positively your game. >> (I have played through 1100 AD. Here are some conclusions.)

Spoiler :

The northern landmass is extremely small (one fat cross city). There is no landmass where other civilizations are present that you can reach before Astronomy. Are you going to play 100 something turns by yourself ? Boring

 

[LuckyAC]

Yeah, not that I ever build the Great Wall, but the less isolated you are, the worse it becomes, since AIs slaughter barbs and land is settled quickly, plus you need to build a military anyway to defend yourself from enemies. All alone, you expand at leisure (meaning time for wonders), there is no one else to clear barbs and you could get along without a military at all. I think Sisutil was saying that because the continent is not that big, though.

 

[Uncle Istvan]

I hate to say this, but I do wish we could get a reroll. It isn't that there isn't fun to be had on a little island, but a janissary rush may now need astronomy, which definitely puts a dent in the strategy. But act as you will, I'll enjoy it either way.

 

[TRJS]

I agree with Martin031 on the Great Wall part. Having it built will mean no need to protect workers from Barbs which in turn can lead to Barb Cities as less fog busting.

This provides you with:
a) Free city in ideal location; or
b) City to raze only but at least you get exp and gold.


Also I agree. No re-rolling. Isolated starts are a good way to learn.

 

[GinandTonic]

Dont quible now. You may be all alone in the dark but stiff upper lip and all that.

 

[axident]

I agree with Martin031 on the Great Wall part. Having it built will mean no need to protect workers from Barbs which in turn can lead to Barb Cities as less fog busting.

This provides you with:
a) Free city in ideal location; or
b) City to raze only but at least you get exp and gold.


Also I agree. No re-rolling. Isolated starts are a good way to learn.

GW is probably unnecessarily expensive at this point, especially without industrious OR stone (no, that one down there doesn't count--too far away to quickly and efficiently use, though technically his 2nd city could go for the GW right off the bat rather than the capital, saving workers the trouble of roadbuilding). I'd go for chariots if available, expand, and see if a galley can check out that mysterious landmass up there.

 

[Morgrad]

2nd city to the south with rice and copper (or cow/river/copper, to link it fast and leave the rice for a cow/clam/rice coastal city to the west). There are a lot of city cites that otherwise would be nice but are frusteratingly stuck with desert, mountains, or both - or would make nearby cities just suck.

It looks like your smaller river to the east has a pretty awesome production city site, though it'll be a slow grower with a) needing to chop the jungles and b) at best 1 food resource and a sugar.

Those two fish to the far NW just tick me off. Two fish and a cow - plus mountains, desert, and ocean. Yay.

As a short term strategy, I'd say get that copper to axe up some barbarians, and with a continent that makes me cringe trying to dot-map, fill it up with as many cottages as possible and push towards astronomy in whatever way the smarter-than-me tech strategists recommend.

I stand by my pre-game statement about cottaging the world and teching like a maniac - but you *need* to meet some other civs sooner rather than later, so you can see where you stand in the tech race and trade as needed - so at least one coastal city sooner rather than later.

As far as the great wall, it might not be a bad idea at all.

1. Lots of hammers to build, but you shouldn't need an awful big military soon. GE points are also yummy for free wonders later.

2. It takes the priority off linking copper/horses fast, which means you can concentrate harder on building economy cities and less on resource grabbing cities this early in the game.

I actually like the idea of the great wall for this start - as long as you don't let the combination of isolation and no barbs hoodwink you into ignoring your military too much.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Hmmm...

1)Well....you haven't built early since the Incan game, and you have stone. Sounds pretty nice to me. No need for Stonehenge or GW, but the 'Mids and HG are looking very nice and very achievable...your little island does seem to have good land and a good smattering of resources.

2)We can see some land across the sea in the northeast...it might be a good idea to scout that, even if that entails founding a city there earlier than normal.

3)Woohoo! Two long rivers with lots of grassland. Cottages, with food to run some specialists in many places.

The way I see it...you run a monster hybrid economy, fueled by your UB, Mehmed's traits and your high-quality land. Your cities figure to be very productive. In fact, I'd wager we won't be seeing any caravels....it'll be the AI who sees the caravels. Obviously, this makes Astronomy the overriding priority, but I don't see why you can't pursue that and Gunpowder effectively. No doubt there's some one like Monty out there whose pretty much guarenteed to be a good victim for the Janissaries....

 

[Sisiutil]

Obviously, this makes Astronomy the overriding priority, but I don't see why you can't pursue that and Gunpowder effectively. No doubt there's some one like Monty out there whose pretty much guarenteed to be a good victim for the Janissaries....

The importance of Astronomy very much depends upon whether or not any other civs are reachable via Galleys. We could always build a big fleet of Galleys to transport the Janissaries to their target. If I win the circumnavigation race, it might give those Galleys 1 extra movement point at roughly the same time the UU becomes available. Hmmm...

 

[KMadCandy]

you have a grand total of two happy resources (one of which needs calendar) until you can trade with somebody? yikers!!!

edit .. i figured it out. you did this to yourself, S. you did say you wanted to go for a whale economy next game, didn't you? you have this whole island to yourself and not a single whale in sight! beeline for astronomy and go harpoon some, buddy!

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'd stay with it - I like green.

General thoughts

1) Do pay attention to the fact that you've got a happiness crisis which will need to be addressed.

2) Fishing/Sailing are only a priority if your early cities are going to be coastal. Get that dotmap built, then prioritize.

3) Dude, those pictures aren't worth a thousand words.

 

[scy12]

You have no option as to beeline to Monarchy sooner than later else your cities will not grow.

 

[Sisiutil]

you have a grand total of two happy resources (one of which needs calendar) until you can trade with somebody? yikers!!!

I'd stay with it - I like green.

General thoughts

1) Do pay attention to the fact that you've got a happiness crisis which will need to be addressed.

Keep in mind that Mehmed comes with a built-in way to help reduce happiness problems (the Hammam). In the short term, by combining the UB with HR, I don't anticipate too many problems. Long-term, however, yes, I'll need to obtain other happiness resources. Fortunately it looks as if I'll have plenty of Rice (3), Fish (3), Sugar (4), and Cows (7!) to trade.

 

[oyzar]

are you seroious?? you worked the 2f 1h tile while growing instead of the 3F title all the way to size 2. Thats 16 turn to grow/get the warrior instead of 11 turns to grow then 3 more turns to get the warrior so you wasted 2 turns AND you got less comerce....

EDIT: working the 2 forested grassland hills of course.

 

[pax]

After finishing a game as the Spanish, I thought I'd roll up a game as Mehmed, whom I've never played as before. Since I read the ALCs religiously, I figured I could play along, using some of the strategies that came out of this game. I read, with a touch of sadness, of the isolated start. Then I dove into my game...

Which had an isolated start. Oh bitter, bitter irony.

I'm all for you playing out this start, Sisiutil, if for no other reason than to see how you played your game differently than mine. I do have some ideas to offer as well:

I was lucky, I got gold and silver on my island. That made Metal Casting a priority. I went for an Oracle rush, took MC and had already prechopped myself most of the Colossus. Wheee... instant in all my coastal cities. I don't know if the payoff for you would work as synergistically.

As a consequence of my overflowing happiness, once I got Mathematics, I could speed for Optics. The Hammam is a thing of beauty. I'm will into the 1300s and whipping all kinds of buildings. It doesn't hurt that my island is grassland rich and mountain-poor. Thus, I skipped over Monarchy and Hereditary Rule. I had +4, I didn't need to worry about troops. This could cause problems later.

Optics gave me caravels. I had already built a pair of explorers. I find that carrying an explorer on each caravel gives me the option to explore by land as well as by sea. I met the rest of the world, got the circumnav bonus. With a bit of skillful tech trading, I'm more or less in the race.

Interestingly, I'm way ahead of poor Saladin, who's on his own island to my north. (Had I paid close attention, I could have done the border-extension trick to get up there. Alas.) This means I have an interesting possibility. I've picked up Astronomy (ahead of most of the world). I have gunpowder (via the Hindu faction of George Washington, Augustus Caesar and their leader, Louis). I'm building Janissaries and Trebuchets, planning to attack... Saladin. I have my own island, but I want another. Plus, he's Buddhist (and no one else is), so no one will care if I wipe him out.

Right, before I ramble on for ever, here's a summary of what I've learned:

* Hammams good
* Colossus good
* Great Lighthouse/Temple of Artemis bad (no decent trade routes!)
* Minimal military good until you meet people. Then everyone will make demands of you.
* Find a faction you want to stick with. Keep them happy, plot against everyone else.
* If you go for culture, try to pick up at least one religion on your own. It's 1300 AD in my game and I have no religion at all. Conquest or nothing for me. But in your case, consider using the Oracle to slingshot either CoL or Theology.
* If you go for conquest, find someone even more technically backward than you (there's always at least one). Go after that civ. It's not hard to have Astronomy before Gunpowder. Janissaries vs. a backwards civ can be fun.

 

[pindicator]

are you seroious?? you worked the 2f 1h tile while growing instead of the 3F title all the way to size 2. Thats 16 turn to grow/get the warrior instead of 11 turns to grow then 3 more turns to get the warrior so you wasted 2 turns AND you got less comerce....

EDIT: working the 2 forested grassland hills of course.

Actually, if I read the screenshots correctly, he did 5 turns working the river sugar, and then 9 turns working the forest grassland, taking 14 turns. The alternative is river-sugar for 11 turns, and then work the forest grassland and river-plains for 4 turns -- remember that borders don't expand until turn 15.

So he did go the fastest way for getting the warrior out, at the expense of some commerce.

 

[oyzar]

only way to get the worker out as the same time as the city grow is to work a mix of some forested title(doesnt realy matter which though forested grassland hill is a bit better) and the sugar. This will let you grow/get warrior after 63/4=15.75 aka 16 turns. If you grow for 11 turns 33/3=11 to get to size two then work the two forested hills (4 hammers) (22-11)/4=2.75 you'll be done 2 turns earlier...

 

[Killroyan]

Colussus should get a bigger priority. Short look at the map gives me about 6 or 7 coastal cities. That makes a big yes for metal casting quickly.

Since you are isolated you might want to try to get the oracle and pop confucianism through code of laws. A nice religion will give you organized religion for a quick build and some extra happiness. Also a religion would not be bad if you want to go cultural.

I hope iron will show up because right now you won't have a real production power house as far as I can see. This will be a very entertaining ALC especially if you would go the bottom techline with compass/optics. I do think that a circumnavigation bonus is a priority.

 

[pigswill]

If you're going cultural then it might be worth thinking about CoL and philosophy slingshot coz you may have to wait a while for religions to spread to you.

Otherwise you may be better off heading along the south track to optics, maybe picking up Colossus en route, maybe using a couple of GS to speed things along then head off and see what you can pick up in trade.

Edit: There's a lot of land out there for barbs to spawn.

 

[cabert]

cultural may be nice in this situation.
No health problem, high culture slider = no happiness problems.
Of course, you're not spiritual, you will have no early religion, you're not financial, you're not philo, you're not creative, you're not industrious , so it may not be this easy.

I see 2 options both include a rush to CoL and large cottage spamming.
option 1 :
- going cultural, using the stone to get yourself some wonders, and the not so early religions (confucianism and taoism should be doable). Just hope for other religions to reach you somehow before the end of the game. theology and DR are doable too, but it's a high cost, low reward route.
- going for space. Tech trading in the late game maybe just as good as early tech trading. Don't bother reaching the other continent. Just fill your landmass, cottage spam like crazy and whip those courthouses.

I think domination or conquest are somehow hard to target now. Not saying it's impossible, but at best it is a long shot.