ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[Hold The Onion]

One other thing: if you settle in place, that's exactly two tiles that you'll not want to use (the two coastal tiles). You will probably easily use those two citizens as specialists anyway. It may all work out for the best.

This is a very good point. A lot of us (myself very much included) hate settling 1 from coast or with overlap, etc. We are thinking too far down the road. Like you say- it's only 2 tiles. How long before this city will be pop 19 where you'd be picking one of them. I agree with the group. Lets see what's there but keep the point Pax makes in mind and don't let those 2 tiles obscure a good decision.

Looking forward to following this one. I check everyday to see what's been added to the ALCs. Good Luck.

 

[Bhruic]

Personally, I'd move the Scout SW->SE. That'll show a bit of what's to the west, to see if NW is a good idea, and then hit the hill to see what's to the S. You should have a much better picture of where to move your Settler at that point.

As an aside, I must admit that it seems out of place to insist on having Horses. While it's true that this series is designed to hilight the various leaders, map manipulation just to get the UU seems like going overboard. You can get a real taste of how to play a leader just with their traits (and UB/starting techs, if you consider those as well).

Of course, it's your games, and your series, so how you want to do it is up to you, but I think as learning experiences, relying on having access to the UU would be a disadvantage.

Bh

 

[Sisiutil]

Personally, I'd move the Scout SW->SE. That'll show a bit of what's to the west, to see if NW is a good idea, and then hit the hill to see what's to the S. You should have a much better picture of where to move your Settler at that point.

As an aside, I must admit that it seems out of place to insist on having Horses. While it's true that this series is designed to hilight the various leaders, map manipulation just to get the UU seems like going overboard. You can get a real taste of how to play a leader just with their traits (and UB/starting techs, if you consider those as well).

Of course, it's your games, and your series, so how you want to do it is up to you, but I think as learning experiences, relying on having access to the UU would be a disadvantage.

Bh

The whole idea of the series is to maximize use of all the leader's characteristics--traits, yes, but UU, UB, and starting techs as well. And the map was not "manipulated", just checked by a third party. There's a difference.

Don't make uncle Sisiutil grumpy.

I'm a bit torn. I still like my initial suggestion of moving the Scout 1SE and then 1SW onto the hill, but I'm tempted to do a little scouting around with the Settler as kniteowl suggests. Let me think it over.

Rather than prolonging the initial discussion too far, however, I intend to move the Scout and post the results tonight.

 

[Hold The Onion]

Don't make uncle Sisiutil grumpy.

I'm happy to relinquish the title of most recent to do so. Thanks Bhruic for getting me off the hook.

 

[BlueSoxSWJ]

On the one hand, you're not trying to found a religion, so the first few turns and settling right away aren't as critical as usual. On the other hand, the lack of resources in the capital's BFC screams to me "STRATEGIC RESOURCE(S)!!!" I've also found in my games that very, very rarely is there a better location to be found within a few turns. I've been making it a point to check at the end of the game if my capital would have been better (or even just as good) a few tiles away, and the answer has invariably been no. Now granted, if the resources you're not seeing now are aluminum and uranium, you're out of luck, but I think my biggest fear about moving now is that you'd settle right on horses, copper, or iron.

 

[Bhruic]

I'm happy to relinquish the title of most recent to do so. Thanks Bhruic for getting me off the hook.

Always happy to help.

I'm really not trying to make anyone grumpy. I'm just saying that if you're not going to play with random UU resources, then you're really not playing the way the average user is going to play. Sure, it'd be nice if I were playing Cyrus or Hatty to always have Horses near me. It'd be great if playing as JC or AC I could always have Iron. But it's not always going to happen. From the sounds of it, Sisiutil was going to re-roll the map until Horses were near. How is that not map manipulation? I can understand the desire not to play an isolated start again, because of the "been there, done that" feeling. I'm not sure that same philosophy applies to UU resources tho'.

But once again, that's just my opinion. He's certainly welcome to play however he wants to play. But for me, one of the things I enjoyed most about the Mongol game was the suspense of whether we'd end up with Horses for the Keshik. Taking away that suspense seems to take something away from it.

Bh

 

[pigswill]

Sisiutil: It might help if you clarified exactly which aspects of the map were checked by a third party. Was it only checked for isolated starts or was it checked for availability of horses?

Edit: Read the introduction dummy .

Is the focus of the series changing from All Leaders Challenge to All Leaders Demo?

 

[Killroyan]

The scout SE and SW is the best available plan if you ask me. It will show you almost all tiles in your BFC. And there will be beyond a doubt cows or pigs present in your BFC. Starting with just 1 special resource is like almost never happening. Otherwise at least 1 or 2 calendar resources possible. I am more worried about the lack of production with just 1 hill present.

About moving your capitol to the sea, I would wait with that untill the scout has moved. Harbor and lighthouse are nice but these are indeed 4 simple resource tiles.

 

[Yeosol]

I think checking first for horses was the right idea. I agree it's a little shady but in this specific case it's necessary for 2 reasons.
First I would say in most games horses are within reach. So like with an isolated start playing with no horses would be playing the exception not the norm.
Second of Cyrus's traits, UU, and UB his UU is the most powerful. Cyrus is only half the leader without it. Playing without it would be interesting and challenging from the prospective of playing a sort of handicapped start. However that would focus mainly on general game tactics and yes also trait tactics but not on the leader as a whole.

 

[KMadCandy]

but I think my biggest fear about moving now is that you'd settle right on horses, copper, or iron.

well, i used to worry about that. but i've had instances where the game has started me, and/or another civ, smackdab on a strategic resource.

the first one that i noticed, i captured brennus's capital and it was right on top of horses. i got all mad at having to raze it, since i didn't want to lose the pasture, and was like "dude why did you settle on them?" and then realized oh yeah, he couldn't see 'em yet. i still had the initial 4000 BC save so i loaded that up and looked in worldbuilder after the game was over; his settler did actually start on that tile. he started on a little peninsula off the main continent, so there weren't a ton of land tiles, that may have had something to do with it.

since that game, i've had it happen to me too, but with metals only, i don't remember any times it started me on horses. i really don't like settling on flat grassland metals, seems like such a waste! anyway, i can tell you, even settling in place isn't a surefire guarantee you're not settling on something juicy. just what you always wanted huh? someone to add to your biggest fear?

checking for horses: come on! yes part of the point of the ALCs is to be a challenge, and for us all (including S) to learn from them. but part of the point is for him to have fun, too! cyrus is like a zillion times more fun if you can make immortals than if you can't, no question about it.

 

[TheArchduke]

The only way to make sure is to settle on forests, there are never metals there.

On the other hand a lone grassland tile in the midst of forests, cries Metal.

 

[EEE_BOY]

not isolated, have horse nearby. with only those two conditions, i suggest move the level up to emporer or immortal to have more chanllenges. anyway, we could learn how to use the GG effectively through this game.

 

[EEE_BOY]

coastal city is not that important in this case, i think production and food is more important if want to get as many as UU out (one per 2 turns). so move the scout SW and if there is another food resource, get that resource and those hills.

 

[Peluin]

My thoughts, metagame-y though they may be:

The capital is practically always the best city location within a reasonable journey, as determined by the randomly generated map resources. So it's unlikely that there's a statistically better capital available a couple squares south, especially considering the point made about getting huffy about two un-lighthouseable coast tiles.

However, being coastal has some somewhat less-quantifiable values in added future trade routes, building/wonder availabilities, shipmaking capacity. The start-location placement may not take those factors into account with the same priorities a human would.

That line of thinking brings me to move the scout onto the hill to the north to get a feel for what the coastal city would look like, and then either pick it or settling in place. From the sounds of things it seems unlikely the coastal build would win out (since coastal doesn't lend itself particularly to Immortal rushing), but if it's got a visible resource that we'd otherwise miss out on plus the side benefits and possibly better production from those hills... it might come out on top!

 

[amaterasu]

I say move the settler south onto the hill and the scout north onto the northern hill, then we will see where the best capital spot is

I've been following the ALC's ever since the louis game, good luck with this one, downloading the save now

 

[cabert]

move and tell SW,SE or SE,SW will show almost the same tiles. Only some faraway hills could be seen or not. It's really no big deal.

I didn't participate in the pre game thread this time, but my aborted WotM 7 trial gave me some specific points I'd like to share :
- whipping settlers is a lot faster than building them when you're imperialistic
- research HA straight away is the single best move of the game
- commerce will be necessary to fund your army : for 100 hammers worth of immortals, you have 4 units to pay for. It's 1 more than for axemen. Why do I say this ? Because you really want to find some gold/gem/silver spot to settle/capture.

Also remember that you don't start with fishing. So a coastal start is not necessarily a good thing.

 

[patagonia]

Based on what we can see so far, I'd move the scout to the hill in the NW to see if it's worth settling 1NW from where you are now for a coastal capital.

In the short term, it'd be nice to see some more hills out that way as the production to pump an immortal every 2-3 turns from the capital would be ideal.

If what's revealed doesn't look particularly exciting I'd settle in place. True, you lose the potential bureaucracy trade route boost, plus some additional health from a harbour, but by the time those things become relevant you should have added at least one AI capital to your empire.

Regardless of capital location, tech order should be AH->Wheel->Bronze (for whipping settlers).

Also, note what Cabert says about scouting for a potential commerce location as well as horses. You can support a whole load more immortals with a third commerce city rather than just the two production powerhouses you'll want for your army. Don't be afraid to tank research down to zero by the time you declare war though. The gold from city captures will keep you afloat nicely until cottages etc are paying the wages.

 

[scy12]

I am of the opinion that you should first move the scout , warrior and then post the game .

 

[Scaphism]

If you moved NW here's what you would lose (based on the screenshot)
1 Plain (1N2W of Settler)
1 Grassland (1S2W of Settler)
1 Grassland Hill (2S of Settler)
3 Forests (2W, 2S2W, 2S1E) - forests won't have resources, unless it's silk

There's no way to tell what you'd gain if you moved NW - those tiles just aren't visible yet. I think that's a good argument for moving the scout in that direction this turn.

Let me put it another way: You are not going to see horses or metal regardless of where the scout is moved. What visible resources would convince you to settle on the spot? There are 3 spots - Plains, Grassland, and Grassland Hill for them to show up.

The new spot has a lot more unknowns, and it also has the grassland corn which you can start working from turn 1, 2, or 3 (if/whichever turn you settle there).

Here's what I see in the opening screen shot:
Visible: BFC
1 Grassland Corn
4 Normal grassland, 2 Grassland Forests
1 Plain

Obscured but easy enough to tell:
1 Grassland hill (2S of Settler)
1 Plain (1N2E of Settler)
3 Grassland (one 2E1S of settler, others 2W and 2W1N of settler)
3 Forests (all look grassy, but I can't really tell)

Maybe: 2W1S of settler might be a plain, I can't really tell

 

[carl corey]

As much as I minded where you moved your settler in the Mongolia game ( ) I think moving the scout 1SE->1SW and then if nothing is revealed moving the settler 1NW even if it's just to scout is a good idea. I'm pretty sure though there are other resources nearby, since with what we see this is not much of a capital unless two or more strategic resources pop up later. One food resource and that's it? Neah...