ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Seems like you picked up a lot of workers. If you're paying maintenence you'd probably benefit from disbanding a few. I wouldn't think you'd have much use for them right now with Qin's land pre-worked.
Oh, and flanking units are absolutely for the initial attack. They're a poor man's catapult.
The cost of taking the techs is basically the dislike you'll get. Since you're planning to exterminate everybody who'll mind anyway that seems a negligible cost.
Oh, and flanking units are absolutely for the initial attack. They're a poor man's catapult.
The cost of taking the techs is basically the dislike you'll get. Since you're planning to exterminate everybody who'll mind anyway that seems a negligible cost.
Don't forget that there's a lot of jungle to be cleared in the captured barb city.
As to the diplo penalty for making peace I think it is significant since Sisiutil can't take out both Genghis and Huayna simultaneously. While dealing with the first he has to try to keep the other relatively happy with him.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
The State of the World, 490 BC
Wow--4 posts for such an early round! But a lot happened, and I wanted to highlight the use of the immortals.
Just to respond quickly to a couple of posts above:
Archduke, it was pretty much agreed earlier in the thread that the "border cities", as you call them, were both worth keeping. Since both are close to the capital, their maintenance will be quite low. One snags me a gold mine, which means it will pay for itself after the first border pop and raise the happiness cap, while the other one is my first coastal city and snags wheat, crabs, and a 2nd source of iron. These are cities I would have founded myself.
Killroyan, I hear you on the use of the Flanking promotion. Obviously I don't use it much so I require tutelage on its proper use. In fact, I almost never attack city defenders with mounted units; I usually prefer to use them on anti-pillaging duty. Fortunately, as I mentioned, I have at least one more chance to use the Immortals against city defenders, so I'll give a couple of Flanking units first crack at Xian.
Okay, let's start with a look at the map. Since the map hasn't been centered yet, it will have to be in pieces. The far west first:
My own territory in the southeast:
And the Mongolian (for now) north:
Now I want to draw your attention to a couple of items not clear from the big maps. First off, some of you may have noticed that there is a barb city northeast of Xian:
If I take 10 turns of peace and techs from Qin, that could be a nice exercise for the Immortals and another chance to try out the Flanking promotion. I'd probably raze it, but we should think about where a city should eventually go to claim those fish.
And Genghis is now very close to my northernmost, former barb city:
Not too close for comfort yet, however, unlike Qin. But it certainly means he's within reach if we decide he's the next target. I should probably send an Immortal up to the capital just to see what, if anything, is underneath that one black tile my Scout didn't expose earlier.
Now on to the various advisors, starting with the domestic sitch:
Diplomacy:
Should I immediately go after either Huayna or Genghis once Qin is finished? Or even before then? I'm in no shape economically to capture and keep cities. I'd have to restrict my activities to weakening a competitor--razing cities and pillaging tiles. In which case, Qin would probably be the more logical target. He's usually a tech threat, so stifling him could be advantageous. Or should I let him tech up for trading?
Resources:
Once trade routes are set up, I should be able to trade corn to Isabella, but the other two appear to have it within their borders.
Technologies:
I only have Agriculture on Isabella and Alphabet on her and everybody else. And everybody, surprise surprise, has Iron Working. I think I can probably get Mathematics from Huayna if not from Qin and then trade it to either Isabella or Genghis for Polytheism and probably Sailing, which would likely be available once I get Fishing from someone else. We should talk about possible tech trades at length now that I have Alphabet. Also, what should my own research priorities be?
Active agreements:
Military Advisor:
Hmmm... Rorschach ink blot time. Does the continent look like a duck to anyone else, or is it just me? And does that mean my mother didn't give me enough attention when I was a child?
So the next GG will be a little while in coming. Also, my military currently consists of nothing but Immortals, and I have more of those in the pipeline. I'm thinking that I should diversify now that I have iron. Spearmen and Axemen could be crucial, especially the latter if barb Swordsmen start showing up; the former would mainly be needed in the next war. And while it's a good intellectual exercise to continue using Immortals, both Huayna and Genghis have access to metal. It may make sense for the Immortals to have their last hurrah at that barb city after I make peace with Qin, and then throw Swordsmen at those recalcitrant Protective Archers in Qin's remaining city.
Speaking of that remaining city, I'm tempted to keep Xian. It's far from the capital, but it's on a hill and easily defended, and it also has access to a gold mine, so it would pay for itself pretty soon after acquisition. It's too bad those peaks prevented it from nabbing that ivory. So--keep it or raze it? Or should I just wait for the 10-turn peace treaty to expire and see how the economy's doing?
The Religion advisor:
So the capture of Beijing also gave me a religion. However, without Meditation or Monotheism for Organized Religion I have no way to spread it. Another argument for keeping Xian is that, given its relative proximity to Spain, it may acquire Buddhism. Then again, it's also close to Hindu Inca territory too.
Power for the last 50 turns:
Heh. Pretty easy to tell when I attacked Beijing, isn't it? I also appear to be close enough to the other AIs to deter them from attacking me at the moment. However, as I said, the lack of counter units is beginning to make me nervous.
Demographics:
As usual, I suck. So: CE or SE? I think Goth should be heavily cottaged either way. At the moment, I'm looking at how to improve the tiles around the capital, Shanghai, and Beijing. The SE also has the advantage that the Chinese cities already have farms. However, they lack libraries. Still, I think it will make sense to hire 1 or 2 scientists in the capital soon. Thoughts?
(Oh, keep in mind that when it comes to the SE, going by my pathetic off-line attempts, I suck at it. So I'll require a lot of guidance if we go that route.)
Top 5 Cities/Wonders:
So Genghis built Stonehenge! Interesting.
Anyway, that's it for this round. I look forward to your comments.
Wow--4 posts for such an early round! But a lot happened, and I wanted to highlight the use of the immortals.
Just to respond quickly to a couple of posts above:
Archduke, it was pretty much agreed earlier in the thread that the "border cities", as you call them, were both worth keeping. Since both are close to the capital, their maintenance will be quite low. One snags me a gold mine, which means it will pay for itself after the first border pop and raise the happiness cap, while the other one is my first coastal city and snags wheat, crabs, and a 2nd source of iron. These are cities I would have founded myself.
Killroyan, I hear you on the use of the Flanking promotion. Obviously I don't use it much so I require tutelage on its proper use. In fact, I almost never attack city defenders with mounted units; I usually prefer to use them on anti-pillaging duty. Fortunately, as I mentioned, I have at least one more chance to use the Immortals against city defenders, so I'll give a couple of Flanking units first crack at Xian.
Okay, let's start with a look at the map. Since the map hasn't been centered yet, it will have to be in pieces. The far west first:
My own territory in the southeast:
And the Mongolian (for now) north:
Now I want to draw your attention to a couple of items not clear from the big maps. First off, some of you may have noticed that there is a barb city northeast of Xian:
If I take 10 turns of peace and techs from Qin, that could be a nice exercise for the Immortals and another chance to try out the Flanking promotion. I'd probably raze it, but we should think about where a city should eventually go to claim those fish.
And Genghis is now very close to my northernmost, former barb city:
Not too close for comfort yet, however, unlike Qin. But it certainly means he's within reach if we decide he's the next target. I should probably send an Immortal up to the capital just to see what, if anything, is underneath that one black tile my Scout didn't expose earlier.
Now on to the various advisors, starting with the domestic sitch:
Diplomacy:
Should I immediately go after either Huayna or Genghis once Qin is finished? Or even before then? I'm in no shape economically to capture and keep cities. I'd have to restrict my activities to weakening a competitor--razing cities and pillaging tiles. In which case, Qin would probably be the more logical target. He's usually a tech threat, so stifling him could be advantageous. Or should I let him tech up for trading?
Resources:
Once trade routes are set up, I should be able to trade corn to Isabella, but the other two appear to have it within their borders.
Technologies:
I only have Agriculture on Isabella and Alphabet on her and everybody else. And everybody, surprise surprise, has Iron Working. I think I can probably get Mathematics from Huayna if not from Qin and then trade it to either Isabella or Genghis for Polytheism and probably Sailing, which would likely be available once I get Fishing from someone else. We should talk about possible tech trades at length now that I have Alphabet. Also, what should my own research priorities be?
Active agreements:
Military Advisor:
Hmmm... Rorschach ink blot time. Does the continent look like a duck to anyone else, or is it just me? And does that mean my mother didn't give me enough attention when I was a child?
So the next GG will be a little while in coming. Also, my military currently consists of nothing but Immortals, and I have more of those in the pipeline. I'm thinking that I should diversify now that I have iron. Spearmen and Axemen could be crucial, especially the latter if barb Swordsmen start showing up; the former would mainly be needed in the next war. And while it's a good intellectual exercise to continue using Immortals, both Huayna and Genghis have access to metal. It may make sense for the Immortals to have their last hurrah at that barb city after I make peace with Qin, and then throw Swordsmen at those recalcitrant Protective Archers in Qin's remaining city.
Speaking of that remaining city, I'm tempted to keep Xian. It's far from the capital, but it's on a hill and easily defended, and it also has access to a gold mine, so it would pay for itself pretty soon after acquisition. It's too bad those peaks prevented it from nabbing that ivory. So--keep it or raze it? Or should I just wait for the 10-turn peace treaty to expire and see how the economy's doing?
The Religion advisor:
So the capture of Beijing also gave me a religion. However, without Meditation or Monotheism for Organized Religion I have no way to spread it. Another argument for keeping Xian is that, given its relative proximity to Spain, it may acquire Buddhism. Then again, it's also close to Hindu Inca territory too.
Power for the last 50 turns:
Heh. Pretty easy to tell when I attacked Beijing, isn't it? I also appear to be close enough to the other AIs to deter them from attacking me at the moment. However, as I said, the lack of counter units is beginning to make me nervous.
Demographics:
As usual, I suck. So: CE or SE? I think Goth should be heavily cottaged either way. At the moment, I'm looking at how to improve the tiles around the capital, Shanghai, and Beijing. The SE also has the advantage that the Chinese cities already have farms. However, they lack libraries. Still, I think it will make sense to hire 1 or 2 scientists in the capital soon. Thoughts?
(Oh, keep in mind that when it comes to the SE, going by my pathetic off-line attempts, I suck at it. So I'll require a lot of guidance if we go that route.)
Top 5 Cities/Wonders:
So Genghis built Stonehenge! Interesting.
Anyway, that's it for this round. I look forward to your comments.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
"Ironically, Qin beat me to Writing and proposed an Open Borders agreement first" ok so he surprised me there!
"Compared to the previous game, the barbs have been astonishingly shy this time around. I had to go looking for them."
we knew that would happen silly.
"That concludes the Battle of Beijing. I hope it was illuminating, and I look forward to your comments on how it went, whether the selected promotions were the best to use, and so on."
your pre-combat scouting was a bit too glass-half-full. very end of the first post you said "3 Archers with no promotions beyond Protective's defaults--a situation unchanged since the start of the round." but in fact one had CG2 in that screenshot. noticing wouldn't have changed our approach, but shame on you anyway
.
what struck me about using the experimental flanking immortal last wasn't what the others have said, but to wonder whether he had buddies with movement left to go into the shiny captured city with him? cuz flanking can be a spiffy promotion for attacking stuff, but it's worthless for defending. if qin comes back in a bad mood, you want more in there than a wounded pony with a flanking promotion and those workers
. i saw that and thought "oh yay we got it! ... oh dear that's what we got it with" *giggle*.
medic 3 mounted unit is good. march promotion on there, wellllllll, ummmmm, i'll just say this: my medic 3s are not allowed to fight, ever, EVER. well maaaaaaaybe if i want them to get sentry or morale. but that's it, and that's only if i'm sure they will win that fight. fighting anything not already 90% dead is against the rules for them, since they have a higher calling in life. so if mine have any reason whatsoever to use march, they are soooooo grounded when they get home. that should probably give you some slight idea how
i consider that promotion *giggle*. i heard a rumor canada has a totally different healthcare system than the US, maybe that's part of the difference in our styles.
they count for WFYABTA. so do ones you ask for as "can you spare this for a friend" or demand in tribute. i'd not take 'em, at least not all three i don't think.
--
edit: from your latest post "Should I immediately go after either Huayna or Genghis once Qin is finished? Or even before then? I'm in no shape economically to capture and keep cities. I'd have to restrict my activities to weakening a competitor--razing cities and pillaging tiles. In which case, Qin would probably be the more logical target. He's usually a tech threat, so stifling him could be advantageous. Or should I let him tech up for trading? "
that last Qin isn't supposed to be Qin. is it supposed to be Huayna?
"Compared to the previous game, the barbs have been astonishingly shy this time around. I had to go looking for them."
we knew that would happen silly."That concludes the Battle of Beijing. I hope it was illuminating, and I look forward to your comments on how it went, whether the selected promotions were the best to use, and so on."
your pre-combat scouting was a bit too glass-half-full. very end of the first post you said "3 Archers with no promotions beyond Protective's defaults--a situation unchanged since the start of the round." but in fact one had CG2 in that screenshot. noticing wouldn't have changed our approach, but shame on you anyway
.what struck me about using the experimental flanking immortal last wasn't what the others have said, but to wonder whether he had buddies with movement left to go into the shiny captured city with him? cuz flanking can be a spiffy promotion for attacking stuff, but it's worthless for defending. if qin comes back in a bad mood, you want more in there than a wounded pony with a flanking promotion and those workers
. i saw that and thought "oh yay we got it! ... oh dear that's what we got it with" *giggle*.medic 3 mounted unit is good. march promotion on there, wellllllll, ummmmm, i'll just say this: my medic 3s are not allowed to fight, ever, EVER. well maaaaaaaybe if i want them to get sentry or morale. but that's it, and that's only if i'm sure they will win that fight. fighting anything not already 90% dead is against the rules for them, since they have a higher calling in life. so if mine have any reason whatsoever to use march, they are soooooo grounded when they get home. that should probably give you some slight idea how
i consider that promotion *giggle*. i heard a rumor canada has a totally different healthcare system than the US, maybe that's part of the difference in our styles.they count for WFYABTA. so do ones you ask for as "can you spare this for a friend" or demand in tribute. i'd not take 'em, at least not all three i don't think.
--
edit: from your latest post "Should I immediately go after either Huayna or Genghis once Qin is finished? Or even before then? I'm in no shape economically to capture and keep cities. I'd have to restrict my activities to weakening a competitor--razing cities and pillaging tiles. In which case, Qin would probably be the more logical target. He's usually a tech threat, so stifling him could be advantageous. Or should I let him tech up for trading? "
that last Qin isn't supposed to be Qin. is it supposed to be Huayna?
In the near future I think you need to convert to Hinduism to cultivate Huayna as an ally, let him tech away and trade with him (you could bribe him against Izzy if you want but she's on some pretty crappy-looking land anyway, plus with them having different religons she'll sneak-attack Huayna soon enough). Isolate Genghis, maybe go on a pillaging war (remember two can that game though, and keshiks are pretty darn good at it) against him. When you're economy is back in shape, take him out.
Welnic
Emperor
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,057
I think you should try to trade Agriculture for something. I've never seen someone not have that by the time I got Alphabet. But now that I've scrolled up to look at Isabella's territory she doesn't need agriculture. There isn't anything you can irrigate. That is some bad looking land.
maybe we shouldn't skip pottery. as the cottaged former barb city will provide as much gold as your maintainance. u should have a setter ready for another jungle heavy area, say the fish-2 dye site. and several immortals. once u see the mongol's setter then settle the city. those jungle heavy city are very good cottage land, and can be your commerce centers. leave Qin from now. better to put your immortals to treaten Inca. the pillaged gold are good for your research rate. don't keep any city from Inca unless it has wonder. pillage strategy resources first.
about your economy, CE are the way to go. u can assign some scientists in your cities if u think no builds is immediately needed. trade maths from Inca using Alphebet and and the rest tech u missing from mongol. research construction followed by code of law. then u can war without cease.
u can make isabella friend once buddism spread in ur city and attack Inca and mongel. Isabella was not teching fast so she will not be such a problem if u finally after her.
about your economy, CE are the way to go. u can assign some scientists in your cities if u think no builds is immediately needed. trade maths from Inca using Alphebet and and the rest tech u missing from mongol. research construction followed by code of law. then u can war without cease.
u can make isabella friend once buddism spread in ur city and attack Inca and mongel. Isabella was not teching fast so she will not be such a problem if u finally after her.
Rancid Sushi
Last year's catch
This is a nice game. I like how Immortals totally rape those annoying protective archers. I'd much rather finish Qin than have him linger about. You know the first thing he'll do is make a settler and that'll be another little city you'll have to swat.
A few comments :
- skipping pottery before writing was not big deal provided you go immediately for alpha, skipping pottery then selfresearching IW is a bit. no specialists and no cottages = no research! trading for some would at least have given you some more options (like ttrading for pottery).
- you were lucky in the capture of beijing. Civsetä said something about 15 immortals, and I think that would have been the sure way. In a shadow game I used 12 (some unpromoted), and barely got the city.
- you have marble and you build the pyramids?
. pillaging some neutral tiles with your shiny immortals could be better than this (and faster!)
- I'm not one of those advocating the medic 3 GG. Even less so with cyrus, because
1) the xps you get from a settled GG are worth more than usual
2) immortals die so often that you aren't a lot faster if you heal faster, but you are a lot faster if you produce more/better.
My advice :
- try to get mathematics from qin for peace (less techs for WFYABTA, and a good one to trade for a lot of things if you feel like it)
- keep using and building your immortals. that barb city is a good target. then HC. You will need more and more units, but if you manage to avoid HC connecting metals (or pillage his mines early on), he can be as good as dead in only a few turns.
- skipping pottery before writing was not big deal provided you go immediately for alpha, skipping pottery then selfresearching IW is a bit
. no specialists and no cottages = no research! trading for some would at least have given you some more options (like ttrading for pottery).- you were lucky in the capture of beijing. Civsetä said something about 15 immortals, and I think that would have been the sure way. In a shadow game I used 12 (some unpromoted), and barely got the city.
- you have marble and you build the pyramids?
. pillaging some neutral tiles with your shiny immortals could be better than this (and faster!)- I'm not one of those advocating the medic 3 GG. Even less so with cyrus, because
1) the xps you get from a settled GG are worth more than usual
2) immortals die so often that you aren't a lot faster if you heal faster, but you are a lot faster if you produce more/better.
My advice :
- try to get mathematics from qin for peace (less techs for WFYABTA, and a good one to trade for a lot of things if you feel like it)
- keep using and building your immortals. that barb city is a good target. then HC. You will need more and more units, but if you manage to avoid HC connecting metals (or pillage his mines early on), he can be as good as dead in only a few turns.
BlueSoxSWJ
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2006
- Messages
- 92
If Qin won't give up maths, I think I'd take pottery and fishing. This may be another game where you never pick up archery, since you don't really need it, and you might as well not get WFYABTA. I would take fishing though, since you do need it eventually, and even those few turns it would take to research it would be turns not spent researching something else. Plus, if all goes well, you won't be trading with anyone anymore once you get to WFYABTA.
You also might see if you can't just finish Qin now. If you can (no guarantee with those archers on a hill), you might want to get rid of motherland issues in your new cities and avoid the diplo penalty for redeclaring war. With the capture gold and the gold mine, it shouldn't be too bad economically.
re: flanking: I love this promotion for cheap units. Remember, xps earned in battle are based on the odds of winning, and a unit that withdraws gets xps as if it had won. Normally (non-UU situation) I like to throw 5-6 cheap flanking units at a city, then take the survivors, give them their high promotions, and upgrade them. With a Medic III now in your arsenal and cheap promotions, one of your immortals could go from a throwaway rookie one battle to a highly decorated veteran the next.
You also might see if you can't just finish Qin now. If you can (no guarantee with those archers on a hill), you might want to get rid of motherland issues in your new cities and avoid the diplo penalty for redeclaring war. With the capture gold and the gold mine, it shouldn't be too bad economically.
re: flanking: I love this promotion for cheap units. Remember, xps earned in battle are based on the odds of winning, and a unit that withdraws gets xps as if it had won. Normally (non-UU situation) I like to throw 5-6 cheap flanking units at a city, then take the survivors, give them their high promotions, and upgrade them. With a Medic III now in your arsenal and cheap promotions, one of your immortals could go from a throwaway rookie one battle to a highly decorated veteran the next.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
Finish Qin now - maths isn't valuable enough to grant him a stay of execution and the other civs aren't good enough traders to sacrifice WFYABTA to picking up techs as cheap as fishing and pottery.
Whether to keep or raze Xian is a slightly trickier question. My natural inclination would be to keep it as it won't really have enough food to work 2 gold mines until you can chain irrigation up there after CS if you resettle east of its current location, so one of them will go idle for quite some time. However, a good argument can be made for resettling 2E as otherwise one of those mines will probably never be worked (in which case Beijing should whip a settler to make sure the Incas don't try and grab the spot).
6 cities post-Immortal rush is a fairly good base. You can actually afford to add both Xian (or "New Xian") and the barb fish city without too much of a bump as long as you stop the war there. If you want to press straight on into Incan territory (which I'd advise against for now), adding any more cities will be too much of a drag with the unit supply costs you'll have to pay as well.
The bulk of your commerce in the short-mid term is going to come from the gold and gem mines. It'd be more educational from here to run an SE with a view to gearing up for a treb/pike/mace war in the middle ages against either Khan or Capac and possibly transition to cottages later in the game depending on what's happening in the rest of the world, but given your admitted SE inexperience that may not be the strongest play.
If you do go SE, there are 4 important tech goals:
How this works in practice (a very brief outline, but I can go into more depth if you choose this option and it'll help)
Farm all grassland tiles that you can. Workshop the plains ones (once machinery's in). You can then work grasslands to feed specialists to research (or bring in gold), firing them to work plains workshops/mines for bursts of production as useful buildings/units become available. Gryman's Immortal SE walkthrough illustrates this nicely - how to get a lot of production from an SE without whipping away useful members of society.
You've got 5 of 6 cities so far with a decent food surplus which can support a few specialists. Persepolis looks like a good candidate for GLib and with pacifism and some hired scientists can spit out GS at a terrific rate for a non-philosophical civ. Running HR and spreading Hinduism there would shore up relations with Capac for a long time to come, allowing you to focus on taking Mongolia in the middle ages. Izzy has terrible land and no source of iron so she's going to be unable to trouble him much in this game - he'll make a better ally for now. Making Capac a friend also means you've only got one border city - Gepid. Running an SE makes this much more secure as you'll be farming there (it has huge food potential) rather than cottaging, which makes any Mongol pillaging easier to stomach. The only slight drawback with this is that of your current cities, Beijing is the best HE candidate so the bulk of your troops will be trained a long way from where they need to be.
Whether to keep or raze Xian is a slightly trickier question. My natural inclination would be to keep it as it won't really have enough food to work 2 gold mines until you can chain irrigation up there after CS if you resettle east of its current location, so one of them will go idle for quite some time. However, a good argument can be made for resettling 2E as otherwise one of those mines will probably never be worked (in which case Beijing should whip a settler to make sure the Incas don't try and grab the spot).
6 cities post-Immortal rush is a fairly good base. You can actually afford to add both Xian (or "New Xian") and the barb fish city without too much of a bump as long as you stop the war there. If you want to press straight on into Incan territory (which I'd advise against for now), adding any more cities will be too much of a drag with the unit supply costs you'll have to pay as well.
The bulk of your commerce in the short-mid term is going to come from the gold and gem mines. It'd be more educational from here to run an SE with a view to gearing up for a treb/pike/mace war in the middle ages against either Khan or Capac and possibly transition to cottages later in the game depending on what's happening in the rest of the world, but given your admitted SE inexperience that may not be the strongest play.
If you do go SE, there are 4 important tech goals:
- CoL for unlimited scientists/merchants from caste system.
- CS for chaining irrigation.
- Philosophy for pacifism (more great people!).
- Machinery for workshops.
How this works in practice (a very brief outline, but I can go into more depth if you choose this option and it'll help)
Farm all grassland tiles that you can. Workshop the plains ones (once machinery's in). You can then work grasslands to feed specialists to research (or bring in gold), firing them to work plains workshops/mines for bursts of production as useful buildings/units become available. Gryman's Immortal SE walkthrough illustrates this nicely - how to get a lot of production from an SE without whipping away useful members of society.
You've got 5 of 6 cities so far with a decent food surplus which can support a few specialists. Persepolis looks like a good candidate for GLib and with pacifism and some hired scientists can spit out GS at a terrific rate for a non-philosophical civ. Running HR and spreading Hinduism there would shore up relations with Capac for a long time to come, allowing you to focus on taking Mongolia in the middle ages. Izzy has terrible land and no source of iron so she's going to be unable to trouble him much in this game - he'll make a better ally for now. Making Capac a friend also means you've only got one border city - Gepid. Running an SE makes this much more secure as you'll be farming there (it has huge food potential) rather than cottaging, which makes any Mongol pillaging easier to stomach. The only slight drawback with this is that of your current cities, Beijing is the best HE candidate so the bulk of your troops will be trained a long way from where they need to be.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
Suit yourself. I've used blitz immortals with crazy effectiveness. To each his own though.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
If Qin won't give up maths, I think I'd take pottery and fishing. This may be another game where you never pick up archery, since you don't really need it, and you might as well not get WFYABTA. I would take fishing though, since you do need it eventually, and even those few turns it would take to research it would be turns not spent researching something else. Plus, if all goes well, you won't be trading with anyone anymore once you get to WFYABTA.
i'm real curious who else exists in our world. i sure don't imagine us getting much trading done on our side of it
. we'll be spending a lot of time beating the folks up, and even if we did want to be friendly, they're not my favorites for trading. GK doesn't doesn't really stick out in my mind, i never really bother trying with him; huayna is sometimes cool, sometimes uh oh he's teching scary fast; but isabella likes to pretend she has a "monopoly" on something until a couple others know it, she puts that redline "we're not ready to start sharing this technology" longer than most of them do. i point this out because i know how you boys can get easily distracted by things like her jewelry , so you might not remember her trading habits.the more i ponder who we actually have as potential trading partners, the better qin's pathetic offer actually looks
. but, that's if you really think you need peace. if you need peace, then get something with the bargain. don't make peace just to get techs, since HC isn't going to be thrilled when you declare again, and you already have GK on the other side who isn't thrilled about having nowhere left to go. i don't think you do need peace right now, but i haven't looked at the save and wouldn't be the best judge even if i had *giggle*.futurehermit
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Give me a chance to respond. BTW: You do realize that Qin isn't Financial in Warlords, right?
Based on my experience I doubt that Genghis will have much of an army if you attack after getting Construction and building up a force of cats supported by swords and spears. The AI normally stays in REX mode until all of the available land is used up or it is attacked, and then it starts building its military. Considering the size of that northern peninsula it's going to take Genghis some time to finish expanding, which should give you the opportunity to attack him while he's weak.
I believe futurehermit normally plays on higher difficulties where AI behavior may be different. Sisiutil, what have you seen in terms of early AI military buildup at Monarch (no Aggressive AI and no BetterAI mod of course)?
In the general case I would agree that Huayna is more of a long term danger than Genghis. But on a game by game basis the threat posed by different AIs varies based on a number of factors and one of the most significant is the quantity and quality of the land that the AI civ has at its disposal. There's still land to be explored in the SW, but based on what's been explored so far it's clear that Genghis has the best land and certainly the most.
Which is more of a threat: Genghis with 12 cities or Huayna with 6?
I seem to recall seeing somewhere "Land is power" but I can't remember where...
Does it really matter if the jungles are cleared by Genghis' workers or the workers that you capture from Genghis?
I think one of the key points of taking on Genghis first is that the sooner you get control of those profitable jungle cities the sooner they can start getting developed and contributing to your empire. What we can see of Huayna's land doesn't look like it would add much.
It's definitely possible that you can manipulate Genghis to keep him from attacking you, however I'm not sure it's a guarantee. You don't know what's going to happen in terms of religion spread, and how relationships will develop between the AIs.
The danger I see in this: once Genghis finishes expanding he will start building an army and it will be a formidable one. What's he going to do with it? His isolated peninsula location means he only has one neighbor.If you can't bribe him into fighting someone else you're the likely target. And he may not be so kind as to wait until you've out-teched him, or even finished your war with Huayna.
The main goal of the strategy I layed out was to minimize the chance of your getting involved in a very unpleasant two front war situation. If you try something different and that's what ends up happening don't say I didn't warn you
Let me put it this way: HC is at the top of the leader board and I don't see that changing. Once the leader board is established, it tends to stay that way unless you do something about it. I strongly advise taking out HC then Genghis later.
There is a rule of thumb I've heard many people use around these forums: Attack builders first and aggressors late. Why? Because builders have little army early on and are a threat to run away with the game late if you leave them alone, whereas aggressors have a sizeable army early and are no threat to run away with the game late because they don't tech very well since they focused so hard on military early.
Combined with the fact that there is so much jungle between us and Genghis I just can't condone going after him and making our workers do all that extra work.
I like to be nice to my workers and have them do as little as possible. I like to let my military do my work for me
futurehermit
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Only take peace if you can get math. If not, just finish him off and trade for math with HC. I usually always avoid self-researching IW because, as you can see the AI always researchs it. I normally trade alpha for IW and math, which I believe is pretty standard practice.
If you don't declare war on someone for a raze-and-pillage campaign, they are going to become outdated. I would recommend doing so vs. HC and trying to bribe Issy into the war to increase your love-affair. That should put you in a very nice long-term situation on your continent.
I would go SE in the short-to-mid term. Focus on generating GSs for a liberalism run. You should try and get cavalry while the AIs, especially Genghis and HC still have longbows. Then you can take them both out, and hopefully then Issy as well, in the renaissance era. You should try and promote your best Immortals to Cavalry. Hopefully you will have some blitz immortals to do so.
You should have promoted more immortals with the flanking promotion and flanking two asap. When I use immortals I always focus 1/2 on flanking with an eye toward flanking II and then 1/2 on combat with an eye toward blitz. Of course one medic/mash unit.
Basically, I think you should gun for the GL if possible and lightbulbing phil for pacificism so you can generate as many GSs as possible for your liberalism run. If you get compass, metal casting, and calendar and NOT machinery, you can lightbulb liberalism directly.
You can mop up your continent with cavalry. You may need grens by the time you get out to Issy if she gets rifles.
Like your Toku game, the other continent should be backward and you should be able to take them out as well (if necessary) with renaissance units. I would shut down research once you have cavalry, grens, and astronomy. That's all you will need to win this game.
If you don't declare war on someone for a raze-and-pillage campaign, they are going to become outdated. I would recommend doing so vs. HC and trying to bribe Issy into the war to increase your love-affair. That should put you in a very nice long-term situation on your continent.
I would go SE in the short-to-mid term. Focus on generating GSs for a liberalism run. You should try and get cavalry while the AIs, especially Genghis and HC still have longbows. Then you can take them both out, and hopefully then Issy as well, in the renaissance era. You should try and promote your best Immortals to Cavalry. Hopefully you will have some blitz immortals to do so.
You should have promoted more immortals with the flanking promotion and flanking two asap. When I use immortals I always focus 1/2 on flanking with an eye toward flanking II and then 1/2 on combat with an eye toward blitz. Of course one medic/mash unit.
Basically, I think you should gun for the GL if possible and lightbulbing phil for pacificism so you can generate as many GSs as possible for your liberalism run. If you get compass, metal casting, and calendar and NOT machinery, you can lightbulb liberalism directly.
You can mop up your continent with cavalry. You may need grens by the time you get out to Issy if she gets rifles.
Like your Toku game, the other continent should be backward and you should be able to take them out as well (if necessary) with renaissance units. I would shut down research once you have cavalry, grens, and astronomy. That's all you will need to win this game.
pindicator
Emperor
Unfortunately, HC has a city planted on copper. Fortunately, it's the nearest city to you and also the only metal source he currently has under his cultural control. After finishing off Quin (leave the barb city for now, time is more important) I would send your Sentry over to that HC town that is on the bronze and see if an attack is possible. If there are spears, probably not going to happen. But if not, you can strike fast, raze the town, and then pillage to your heart's content!
futurehermit
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+1 go for it
Depending on who is weaker, i'd either:
A) Attack genghis and work on getting Huyana to like you, then after genghis is long gone, get Huyana to declare on that heathen Izzy. Then backstab him when his forces aren't at home, leaving just sorry little izzy to mop up.
B) Attack Huyana, hit his metals fast and rush in to pillage and rape everything, crippling him. Burn any cities you can, but primarily focus on plunder. Every penny you take from him is a penny you can use on techs. Keep Genghis as a buddy, he can help you backfill pretty well at this level. Once you can afford the cities, take Huyana's then move on to izzy who is probably a weakling with her crappy land. Genghis will be a tough nut to crack, but you'll have plenty of experienced troops at this point.
A) Attack genghis and work on getting Huyana to like you, then after genghis is long gone, get Huyana to declare on that heathen Izzy. Then backstab him when his forces aren't at home, leaving just sorry little izzy to mop up.
B) Attack Huyana, hit his metals fast and rush in to pillage and rape everything, crippling him. Burn any cities you can, but primarily focus on plunder. Every penny you take from him is a penny you can use on techs. Keep Genghis as a buddy, he can help you backfill pretty well at this level. Once you can afford the cities, take Huyana's then move on to izzy who is probably a weakling with her crappy land. Genghis will be a tough nut to crack, but you'll have plenty of experienced troops at this point.
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