ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[LlamaCat]

I think you're about due for another diplomatic victory effort.. why not put the Challenge back in ALC?

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm leaning towards Domination because, frankly, that seems like the best way to highlight Cyrus' traits--Imperialistic (more Great Generals) and Charismatic (cheaper promotions, less WW thanks to the +1 happy).

I'm glad to hear that everyone thinks the transition to a CE is now due. I think the next round should focus on that as well as obtaining one or two key military techs (Steel and Military Tradition) before taking on Huayna. I also think that if Huayna is the target, it's time to cut him off. I don't want to trade Steel to him! Even if I can get Nationalism for it.

 

[patagonia]

I'm leaning towards Domination because, frankly, that seems like the best way to highlight Cyrus' traits--Imperialistic (more Great Generals) and Charismatic (cheaper promotions, less WW thanks to the +1 happy).

I'm glad to hear that everyone thinks the transition to a CE is now due. I think the next round should focus on that as well as obtaining one or two key military techs (Steel and Military Tradition) before taking on Huayna. I also think that if Huayna is the target, it's time to cut him off. I don't want to trade Steel to him! Even if I can get Nationalism for it.

It's debatable whether it's worth bothering to "transition" to a CE.

At most you need 4 more techs (steel, nationalism, replaceable parts and rifling) and then you're done. Is it really going to speed things along to race around cottaging everywhere? Your power graph is so close to Huayna's as it is that he's going to be no trouble to take down even if he has cavs and you don't. Unless you think you'll need galleons to take some land off Fred or Ragnar (in addition to Incaland/Spain) to hit the domination limit you'll be done teching well before you've completed any sort of transition. Certainly well before your cottages have had time to grow into usefulness.

Research from the onset of Incawar will be slow regardless of economy type as you'll run into WW fairly quickly and want to be running the slider high to speed up reaching the domination limit.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

I agree that Domination and a CE are the way to go. I wouldn't build any cottages on the frontier with HC, however. Look out for a set of galleons with troops attacking by sea.

I think Rifles are a higher priority than cavalry. If you draft Rifles in all your cities, you can raise the power curve very fast. Cavalry have their uses, but are not great city attackers v. HC's Rifles. Attack with cannon, rifles, and grenadiers. Keep your knights back to counter his counter attack.

Representation and the S of Liberty should also be goals.

So build economy, let WW subside, draft Rifles and let the attack begin.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

It's not impossible to keep running an SE, but now is the time to decide, imho.

Both are equally distant from each other. CE needs Democracy (arguably). SE needs Biology.

SE seems most natural.

Industrialism needs Physics > Electricity. Your GS's will naturally push you in that direction anyway (I think current bulb order is: Astronomy > Scientific Method > Physics > Biology.)

All things remaining equal, over the next 93 turns, you'll see 3 chances at a GS (64% in Persepolis in +28 turns, 85% Shanghai +65, 64% Persepolis +93).​

I say as soon as Steel finishes, make your way towards Physics, since you'll need it for Electricity (for Industrialism) anyway (of course, that assumes you want Tanks to make this ezMode.)

HC is probably beelining for Assembly Line, so you can probably beat him to Physics. If so, the free GS will bulb a huge chunk of Biology for you. If you've been lucky with the GP's along the way, the timing should work out to use a GS on Physics.

If you think HC is going to beat you to Physics (or just don't want to try your luck), this same tech line also leads right to Communism / State Property.

CE seems like more of a diversion.

CE's take quite a while to 'blossom' and become strong.

This game is quickly coming to a close.

Unless you're going to aim for a Space Race victory, there aren't enough turns left to see the CE come to fruition.

Nobody is even close to Democracy, so Emancipation woes aren't an issue. The only useful domination tech along that line is Nationalism, and the only other benefits on the road to Democracy are both for an SE -- Representation and the SoL.

time.

History has shown us that superior numbers are more than capable of overcoming superior technology (just look at the Sherman tank in WWII against the Tiger and Panzer tanks ... completely outgunned, but the Allies just had too many of them for Germany to keep up.)

The same thing applies in Civ.

Use your superior production to crush HC right MEOW! If you don't, you'll likely find yourself staring down the barrel of a carbine rifle-wielding Infantry all too soon.

-- my 2

 

[Jet]

At most you need 4 more techs (steel, nationalism, replaceable parts and rifling)
QFT with emphasis on the at most. Maybe Astronomy later for the win. Buildings you build now won't be there long enough to pay off. If you need a better economy, just choose to work more cottages and specialists. Units, units, units now is what I think will get you the best score. Think you can beat your Tokugawa score?

 

[pigswill]

If you're going for domination then its probably not worth making a major switch; if you got an academy or two lying around then convert those cities to cottages (and a bureaucratic capital until you switch to nationalism) and use the rest for production/whipping/drafting etc. As Patagonia said rifles and cannon will win you the game.

If you're going for space then transition to CE will be worth doing.

 

[Porphyrius]

Well, a solid military expedition if anything.

Domination seems the logical aim from now on. Cyrus' traits are not only warmongering one, they require you to actually be engaged in war to benefit.

It's debatable whether it's worth bothering to "transition" to a CE.

At most you need 4 more techs (steel, nationalism, replaceable parts and rifling) and then you're done. Is it really going to speed things along to race around cottaging everywhere?

A full transition is indeed not worth it. Considering your rather massive production ability, steel should be plenty to lead to victory against HC. Just use the cottages on formerly mongol land and make a hybrid. I would even advise Representation over Democracy considering its admitably smaller boost will be iminent rather than waiting for town to mature.

Getting steel quicky is important, after witch you shoud war with HC ASAP.He is probably beelining infantry, and you don't want such complications. Also, should steam engine come into play you will be much more accessible to the Vikings, another complication you could do without. You have better reinforcements coming through sheer production you dont need anything but canons for this war, try to keep things simple and focused.

I think folks overestimate the strength of cavalry. Should HC get to i,t keep in mind that even as pikes and elephant are 20% weaker they cost half the hammers. Also war at this is pretty much stack to stack thus cannons should be by far the main component of any army.

 

[Morgrad]

All the cannons you can build + 19 drafted riflemen + your current army = dead HC.

Go git 'im!

 

[futurehermit]

If you're going domination do NOT transition to CE.

You want the farms for whip/drafting and then population boom.

As others have mentioned you only need a few more techs.

 

[popejubal]

If you're going domination do NOT transition to CE.

You want the farms for whip/drafting and then population boom.

As others have mentioned you only need a few more techs.

...Plus, when it is time to get your military machine rolling, you can turn on a bunch of Merchant specialists, think happy thoughts about a 0% science rate (since you got the techs you needed) and crank the happy dial up to max on the Culture slider when you need it while the Merchants take care of your money problems for a short while.

A turn or three of anarchy in a massive Civics change could also stave off disaster again if you need it during severe war time unhappyness.

Looks like a solid victory here with no real need for cottages between now and the end game. I'd absolutely cottage if you were going to go for the "a few more turns" option after winning the game so that you could get a space ship, but I don't think there's too much demand for that in the ALC.

 

[Porphyrius]

A small remark on civics choice:
Switching from OR to FR will net you about 20 /turn and beef up research. The bonus infrastracture construction OR gives is partly wasted because the newly "aquired" cities that need it the most dont get it. Plus, frankly, shouldn't your HE city keep on making trebes(in time to be upgraded to cannons) or at least grens rather than buildings.

Its a shame none of your cities focusing on specialists employ merchants. Though you could get your next GP about in 20+ turns just before steel chances are it wont be a GM even if you focus on merchant specialists now. Upgrading your cats to cannons would make an upcoming war very easy but at 300+ each seems impossible aside from a GM. Still your 7 veteran trebs + any you make while researching steel can be turned to cannons for a very reasonable 100 a piece and should prove invaluable. Much more so than drafted grens delaying till nationalism is researched.

PS: Attacking the Vikings or their vassal Germans is hardly advisable as it requires astronomy and attacking cross-sea should complicate coordination of your war effort.

 

[Indibil]

He's Back!

Good turnset. Although this is my very first post in an ALC thread I've been reading them all and they have immensely helped my gameplay.

The improvement has been so drastic that from losing Noble games before starting reading them, I've moved to Prince and I'm only in need to improve my diplomatic skills to take a deep breath and start playing Monarch.

I'd also head for Domination if I were in your position. After all, once Inca gets extinct you're on a First Class ticket for another win.

Thanks for helping me understand which were my weakest skills and helping me to improve them, Sisiutil :thup:

 

[oyzar]

You dont realy need to transition to Ce... That is only needed if you want to head for space... smash huyana then smasm isablla and voila victory. Hurry up and win .

 

[Maydrock]

Where production is right now he could probably take out HC with shear numbers, but half way through the war the economy is going to tank, then what? Gold is the limiting factor now for domination and needs a round focused on it.

 

[xanadux]

You have a completely dominating position. Your land and production advantages are so huge that you can choose any victory condition you like. I think the quickest is domination. Once you get steel, your cannons will destroy HC. Make sure you have plenty of cash, and a theatre in all big cities so you can turn up culture if necessary, continue building military, and take out HC. It won't matter if he gets cavalry. Cannon + 2:1 production advantage will destroy cavalry. Just build a few pikes to defend your stack.

The one huge error I saw last turn set, and surprised no one else noticed it AFAIK, is that you attacked the first Mongol city across a river for no good reason. Why not attack from the hill N of the city?

 

[xanadux]

One more thing. If you were going for the Liberalism race, and knew it would be close, you should have waited to get Lib before going to war. Second, at this point you should have theatres in your biggest cities, and turning up the culture slider a few points usually makes more gold than having science at 0 and gold at 100 during a war. I disagree with your earlier comments (I don't remember the thread) that you aren't ready for emperor. I think there are just 1 or 2 holes in an otherwise very solid game that make emperor just a little too tough. One of these holes is not using theatres and the culture slider to fund mid and late game wars. Another is not always having a focused tech path. I often see you switching techs mid-stream. It doesn't seem that big of a deal, but researching a tech half-way and then switching can often have a high cost. Many times, that tech you switched from wasn't so important, and you could trade for it a few turns later and you just wasted 4 or 5 turns of beakers. Certainly you agree that 4 or 5 turns of research is a big deal (in this game would have won you the lib race).

I'm also on the cusp of the monarch/emperor border. you are dominating the monarch level just like me, and struggling a bit on emperor. Rather than stick around at monarch, start playing at emperor and if needs be, get your ass kicked a few times. Nothing improves your game like better competition. If you really want to improve, you should be playing at a level where you win only about 50% or less of your games. You have been dominating Monarch, so you should move up. Usually getting owned teaches you more than just another easy win.

 

[Uncle Istvan]

First of all, very nice to see you back.
Overall, I thought the round went very well. Shame about losing on chemistry, but I don't think it will prevent a victory. In fact, I would go for Military Tradition, and start wrecking the poor Incan with Calvary. A domination victory seems within grasp.
I'm going away without internet for 3 weeks starting tommorow, and I very much want to see this game already won when I'm back.

 

[BlueSoxSWJ]

I disagree with your earlier comments (I don't remember the thread) that you aren't ready for emperor. I think there are just 1 or 2 holes in an otherwise very solid game that make emperor just a little too tough. One of these holes is not using theatres and the culture slider to fund mid and late game wars. Another is not always having a focused tech path. I often see you switching techs mid-stream. It doesn't seem that big of a deal, but researching a tech half-way and then switching can often have a high cost. Many times, that tech you switched from wasn't so important, and you could trade for it a few turns later and you just wasted 4 or 5 turns of beakers. Certainly you agree that 4 or 5 turns of research is a big deal (in this game would have won you the lib race).

I'm also on the cusp of the monarch/emperor border. you are dominating the monarch level just like me, and struggling a bit on emperor. Rather than stick around at monarch, start playing at emperor and if needs be, get your ass kicked a few times. Nothing improves your game like better competition. If you really want to improve, you should be playing at a level where you win only about 50% or less of your games. You have been dominating Monarch, so you should move up. Usually getting owned teaches you more than just another easy win.

I think S has mentioned that he plays offline games at both Monarch and Emperor. One of the main reasons he's keeping the ALCs at Monarch is for newbies like me. Especially with a new expansion coming out, there will probably be a surge of new players, and these games will help US more if they're at a lower difficulty. Also, keep in mind that S also is playing leaders he doesn't use often and is trying out various strategies and gambits - games on a higher level would need to be more formulaic and would allow less "exploration" of lesser-used tactics.

All this should be in the thread linked to in S's sig, so back on topic ...

I agree that you don't really need much more tech to finish off this game. While I'm terrible at executing that decision (I come from playing C&C games, where the AI starts at the top of the "tech tree," so you can't even think much of winning until you get there, too), this game really could be over quickly enough to justify pure unit production the rest of the way. Time, Culture, UN, and Space are too far off, the only choice now is between Dom and Conquest. With all of HC's land, you'll be at 58% ... Isabella should put you over, but if you want to play it safe, Astro might be a target in case you need to cross the ocean.

 

[Sisiutil]

Its a shame none of your cities focusing on specialists employ merchants. Though you could get your next GP about in 20+ turns just before steel chances are it wont be a GM even if you focus on merchant specialists now. Upgrading your cats to cannons would make an upcoming war very easy but at 300+ each seems impossible aside from a GM. Still your 7 veteran trebs + any you make while researching steel can be turned to cannons for a very reasonable 100 a piece and should prove invaluable. Much more so than drafted grens delaying till nationalism is researched.

Granted, a GM would be nice, but not essential. Now that I have 2 GGs settled in the HE city, I can easily churn out 4 Accuracy Cannons to replace their Catapult equivalents, and without a civics change. Same for City Raider II Cannons that are within 1 XP of CR III.

The one huge error I saw last turn set, and surprised no one else noticed it AFAIK, is that you attacked the first Mongol city across a river for no good reason. Why not attack from the hill N of the city?

That was a deliberate decision on my part, and I would contend that it was not a mistake at all. Very simply, I could attack across the river and take the city on the very same turn that I declared war, or wait a turn and attack from the hill. I decided to trade speed for slightly worse odds. I think I only lost 1 Trebuchet and Genghis never really mustered a strong defense of any of his cities or an effective counter-attack, so I think it was worth it. While I may be giving the AI too much credit, there's a great deal to be said for catching your opponent unawares and off-balance and keeping him there.

I think S has mentioned that he plays offline games at both Monarch and Emperor. One of the main reasons he's keeping the ALCs at Monarch is for newbies like me. Especially with a new expansion coming out, there will probably be a surge of new players, and these games will help US more if they're at a lower difficulty. Also, keep in mind that S also is playing leaders he doesn't use often and is trying out various strategies and gambits - games on a higher level would need to be more formulaic and would allow less "exploration" of lesser-used tactics.

All this should be in the thread linked to in S's sig, so back on topic ...

While it would indeed be better to discuss this in the ALC bullpen thread, everything you've said is valid, though I've actually only played a couple of Emperor games off-line (and got my butt handed to me). I'm not ruling out an eventual move up to Emperor, but I'm determined to stick with Monarch until well after I get used to all the changes in BtS. I'd like to play several ALCs where we explore the new gameplay elements, and a more restrictive match at a higher level might not give us the leeway to do that.

I'll do my best to play and post the next round tomorrow.