ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

[Bast]

Exploiting the AP is just like exploiting the UN. If Sisiutil chooses to go for a diplomatic win, I hope that he will go for a true diplomatic win instead of just seeding his religion into low population cities for an easy win.

I'm pretty sure that easy wins do not factor into his planning at all. After all we've seen him do, I'm sure that he will make things as hard for himself as he can.

Just to be clear this isn't a complaint about Siustasil or insinuating that he will exploit the AP. This is just a criticism of the game and in particular the victory condition itself.

 

[slobberinbear]

My sense is that if he does get an AP win, it will be the "honest" way by converting/conquering the world and then accumulating enough diplomacy to bring it home. An early UN.

However, even if he doesn't seek it, it may seek him. Once the darned AP is built, when the condition is triggered (AP religion in all active civs), the game is on, and he may have to seek an AP win to prevent the AP from winning it, else try to maintain an "AP stalemate" while he goes for domination, space, etc.

 

[carl corey]

In my last game with Khmer I built the AP just to deny it to others and expected the three AIs that had Christian cities (the AP religion) to spread that religion in order to gain more leverage. But since one of them was my vassal and the other two were on good terms with me none tried actively to spread Christianity. I was going for a domination/conquest victory so didn't bother using the AP option, but it would have been easy to call for a diplomatic win in this case. I war pretty much assured of receiving the votes for it provided I spread the religion to a city for each of the rest of AIs.

Anyway, that's just to say that the AI doesn't really seem to counter AP strategies very well, especially if they're on good terms with the AP owner and so don't have to fear resolutions like 'war against the infidels'.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Which was the last ALC game where Sisiutil pursued war so fiercely? Granted it's a symbolic game, but all tying up masses of slaves and working them to death for axes, forcing all your young men to war and promising 10 women slaves to the survivors, plundering and pillaging of cities... paints a rather gruesome image in my mind. Like I said, very surprised you could be such a fierce man of war.

The question though, is how you're going to pursue your AP victory. Soon you'll gather up the "you declared war on our friends" penalties. I'm not even sure if taking the English city for the great wall is worth it, even though you have tundra cities and the great wall could be of great help.

 

[carl corey]

Diplomatic penalties don't matter if the AI in question is your vassal. They will still vote for you in the AP elections.

 

[Chrispy]

The question though, is how you're going to pursue your AP victory. Soon you'll gather up the "you declared war on our friends" penalties. I'm not even sure if taking the English city for the great wall is worth it, even though you have tundra cities and the great wall could be of great help.

I don't think the tundra will be a major issue. The tundra is full of fur which makes it more interesting as a city location. I think at least a city on the western ice fur to grab deer, fish, and 2 fur (including the one you settle on) should be a priority after Charlamagne is gone. You could work the other fur and the spices with the other deer as well, but that's less promising.

 

[slobberinbear]

Which was the last ALC game where Sisiutil pursued war so fiercely? Granted it's a symbolic game, but all tying up masses of slaves and working them to death for axes, forcing all your young men to war and promising 10 women slaves to the survivors, plundering and pillaging of cities... paints a rather gruesome image in my mind ...

Give it time. It will get better. After all, soon we'll be handing young men rifles and asking them to stand in formation while they're brutally cut down by grapeshot, then demanding our new subjects convert to the Faith or face the fire.

 

[r_rolo1]

Give it time. It will get better. After all, soon we'll be handing young men rifles and asking them to stand in formation while they're brutally cut down by grapeshot, then demanding our new subjects convert to the Faith or face the fire.

I don't thinks that this game will get to rifles

If I understand correctly, S man plan should be something like:
-Bulb Theo with a GProphet and get the AP ( probably from a minor faith )
-Spread the AP faith to everyone except one civ
-Tech to Engennering for the UB ( the spy bonus is cool IMHO )
-Go to MilTrad ( with Lib help ? ) for the UU
-Attack the infidel civ for UU showoff
-Call a AP vote and win

Atleast that's what I would do if I were in his shoes...

 

[Scarredroman]

Thanks Percy and Scaphism for spying. I 've never had a successful spy. The archers are for defense to free the axes to go on the offensive.

I think after mono, that currency will be researched and then maths and civil service (though that could be taken by bulbing a GP, if monarchy hasn't been traded for).

 

[Winston Hughes]

Having run a few tests I've concluded that the AP victory can be achieved far too easily in some situations.

As with a UN victory, having a larger map/more civs in the game in makes it much more difficult; it's harder to control the spread of religion, and to gain open borders with everyone for missionary access.

But with a standard 7-civ map it's not at all difficult, so long as the following conditions can be met:

1) You build the AP yourself.

2) You manage to prevent the excessive spread of the AP religion beyond your borders. This makes the later religions the best bets for the palace faith - they don't have as much time to spread before election time. It also means that aggressively spreading an early religion or two is most helpful.

3) You are able to achieve open borders with every civ that the AP religion does not spread to naturally. This could be a real problem if someone like Toku is on the map. Otherwise, it's just a case of making the right diplomatic choices and getting missionaries to their target cities asap (this is one situation where 'no-state religion' and Organised Religion can actually work well together ).

4) You grow your own cities as large as possible (and, if necessary, disrupt the growth of the AI's voting cities with your spies and/or troops).

Even in cases where there's a civ who won't open borders, death or vassalage will end their resistance (or, perhaps, conquer one city, convert it, then trade it back for peace).

The main drawbacks to this approach are that it requires a pretty dedicated effort which could fall flat (especially if Toku forges a powerful empire of heresy on the other side of the world), and that you may risk being DoW'd because your diplomacy is focused on the win, rather than self-preservation.

On small or tiny maps (with the default # of civs) the cheesy AP victory is stupidly easy. Pangea maps or isolated starts should also make it much easier. Oh, and btw, you can't win this way on duel maps unless you create a colony (there must be at least 3 civs present before you can build the AP).

ps. If Sis did want to try out the cheesy victory in this game (I'd rather he didn't), he's got the perfect opportunity. Confucianism would be the best choice for the palace imo.

 

[ratrangerm]

Just in response to the earlier post about trading for Mono, my point was, given Sis' current tech rate, there's a chance that Lizzie or Pacal... or both... could get to Currency before he does. Then it's a lost cause trying to trade that for Mono. Exception: If Sitting Bull pursues Mono (which I'll admit is a possibility).

But if it takes just two turns or so to research Mono, then do that instead and use Currency to barter for other techs. Sis was interested in Monarchy, so I'd use Currency as the bargaining chip there. Or if Lizzie or Pacal decides to pursue Code of Laws instead (or did I miss Sis getting it first?), then there's that to pursue.

And if Sis can get Mono in just a couple of turns, it's that much earlier he can lightbulb Theology.

Oh, I should add this: We don't want somebody else researching Theology themselves and getting the jump on Sis when it comes to AP. The founder of Judaism is out there somewhere and it wouldn't surprise me to see that person head for Theology.

 

[mudphud]

I think that the AP victory should be considered. People argue about it a lot but I think it is worth seeing how it plays out. I would like it to be demonstrated how easy it can be maybe that will lead to a fix. Anyway, for better or for worse it is part of the game as it stands.

 

[IthacaMike]

Having run a few tests I've concluded that the AP victory can be achieved far too easily in some situations.

As with a UN victory, having a larger map/more civs in the game in makes it much more difficult; it's harder to control the spread of religion, and to gain open borders with everyone for missionary access.

But with a standard 7-civ map it's not at all difficult, so long as the following conditions can be met:

1) You build the AP yourself.

2) You manage to prevent the excessive spread of the AP religion beyond your borders. This makes the later religions the best bets for the palace faith - they don't have as much time to spread before election time. It also means that aggressively spreading an early religion or two is most helpful.

3) You are able to achieve open borders with every civ that the AP religion does not spread to naturally. This could be a real problem if someone like Toku is on the map. Otherwise, it's just a case of making the right diplomatic choices and getting missionaries to their target cities asap (this is one situation where 'no-state religion' and Organised Religion can actually work well together ).

4) You grow your own cities as large as possible (and, if necessary, disrupt the growth of the AI's voting cities with your spies and/or troops).

Even in cases where there's a civ who won't open borders, death or vassalage will end their resistance (or, perhaps, conquer one city, convert it, then trade it back for peace).

The main drawbacks to this approach are that it requires a pretty dedicated effort which could fall flat (especially if Toku forges a powerful empire of heresy on the other side of the world), and that you may risk being DoW'd because your diplomacy is focused on the win, rather than self-preservation.

On small or tiny maps (with the default # of civs) the cheesy AP victory is stupidly easy. Pangea maps or isolated starts should also make it much easier. Oh, and btw, you can't win this way on duel maps unless you create a colony (there must be at least 3 civs present before you can build the AP).

ps. If Sis did want to try out the cheesy victory in this game (I'd rather he didn't), he's got the perfect opportunity. Confucianism would be the best choice for the palace imo.

Open borders are not needed. One of the quests can spread your state religion to other cities that only have one other religion present, despite closed borders. The AI has scored a cheesy AP victory against me with that one.

Or you build a tundra city close to the obstinent AI, spread the correct religion to it, and then gift the city to the AI.

IthacaMike

 

[Winston Hughes]

^Interesting...

I haven't see that quest - any idea what triggers it?

The ice/tundra city could work in some cases (as could an island), but there's no guarantee you'll find an appropriate spot.

For example, in one of my games Charlie was the last holdout (mainly thanks to a 'you traded with our worst enemy' penalty I could've avoided), stuck the other side of the world on a crappy tundra-ridden peninsula. In the end I had to ship a force over to crush him. I just went back to see if I could've gifted him a city, but no dice - there was no settleable land anywhere near him and he didn't want any of the cities I could settle.

Still, that's two more cheese strings for the AP victory's bow...

 

[Sisiutil]

Sorry for the lack of an update, real life interfering again. I'm attending a course during the day and must catch up on work at night. I am hoping I'll be able to play and update on Friday night.

 

[Lord Chambers]

Is this Strategy and Tips or the General Forum?

The AP victory is not a moral question.

 

[slobberinbear]

Is this Strategy and Tips or the General Forum?

The AP victory is not a moral question.

The ALC series is about discussing strategies, utilizing game features peculiar to particular civilizations, and providing a challenge. The discussion about the AP is legitimate, as there are questions about the manner in which the AP victory can be had, by the player or the AI. Because the ALC series is about exploring potential options while winning (and not necessarily about racking up the highest score), this conversation has a purpose. My reading of Sisiutil's posts on other threads convinces me that he isn't terribly interested in cashing in on exploits.

Your post is essentially telling folks not to talk about a legitimate subject, and is trolling IMHO.

 

[Florian]

Is this Strategy and Tips or the General Forum?

The AP victory is not a moral question.

No one has told Sisiutil that he's a bad person if he takes the AP victory.

The bad implementation of the AP victory is a strategic problem, not a moral one. It hurts the game's strategic balance, and allows victory to be the result of a silly trick instead of consistently good strategizing.

 

[Percy]

Which is why it should be pursued in this game, so that never ever again we have to hear people say it's balanced =P

 

[Azander]

It would be nice to see a good use of Izzys UU and UB. With their extremely short lives, they should be used to full gain- something thats difficult to do properly. Which leaves AP victory out of the question...