Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I like this idea. Stay tuned.
ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Rancid Sushi
Last year's catch
I'm all for an alternate game. Izzy has good warmonger traits. Your main focus should be to found a religion (whatever works, it doesn't matter which one) while seeking Theology and Feudalism for the Theocracy/Vassalage civic combo. Then you can bee-line for the UU/UB and send your Jesus-freaks on a medieval crusade to crush all the heathens of the world.
Why I'd still vote for continuing this game is the AP: it's something new in BTS, and if we ignore the cheesy religious diplomatic victory we can still explore it from other directions, like the Holy Crusade.
Sure, a new game with specific Conquistador + Citadel beeline is possible and would show a different face of Spain. But when is next AP-potential scheduled? Next games seem to be Sumer / Gilgamesh, Viking / Ragnar (assuming this'll be war), Zulu / Shaka (more war), America Lincoln, then Arab / Saladin (religious leader with Knight UU) - potential AP highlight game again if not now?
Sure, a new game with specific Conquistador + Citadel beeline is possible and would show a different face of Spain. But when is next AP-potential scheduled? Next games seem to be Sumer / Gilgamesh, Viking / Ragnar (assuming this'll be war), Zulu / Shaka (more war), America Lincoln, then Arab / Saladin (religious leader with Knight UU) - potential AP highlight game again if not now?
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Good example of how this can be a cheesy process, although it was a bit of a perfect storm to get that win. Even something as simple as programming the AI not to accept a gifted missionary from the AP (unless they have no religion) would reduce the cheesy nature of the religious victory. A minimum % of the world population in that religion might help as well.
It also helped that no one had started running Theocracy. That has often been my problem in past games when I go for the AP. Saladin or Isabella or Justinian can make for a tougher AP win; fortunately you took one out of the equation and the other two were not present.
Going back for a Buddhist block and cultural win would have been interesting, but I think the re-start without knowledge is more fair.
Well done again.
It also helped that no one had started running Theocracy. That has often been my problem in past games when I go for the AP. Saladin or Isabella or Justinian can make for a tougher AP win; fortunately you took one out of the equation and the other two were not present.
Going back for a Buddhist block and cultural win would have been interesting, but I think the re-start without knowledge is more fair.
Well done again.
It was indeed. But I ran several high-speed games (quick speed, minimal micromanagement) with different leaders and maps to test how easy the AP victory is if you play for it from the word go, and suceeded every time. That's the problem: if you play for it on a standard map (or smaller), it's virtually in the bag. And it's still easier than any other victory on larger maps.
Still, nicely done Sis, even if it was a bit of an anti-climax. Now for something a little less cheesy.
Kev
Hired Goon
I actually LOST an game when Frederick built the AP and won diplomatically. Still just learning the nuances of it, but it was totally stupid as I was just starting to make a push in power at the time and everything skidded to a halt. Very frustrating to put in the time to have it yanked from you.
If anyone is still checking this thread out, Sisiutil pointed out something where one no longer can see cities of the religion you've founded and have as your state religion. I guess this is a new feature, and it makes sense since this is something accomplished via spying now. Was this the logic behind this?
If anyone is still checking this thread out, Sisiutil pointed out something where one no longer can see cities of the religion you've founded and have as your state religion. I guess this is a new feature, and it makes sense since this is something accomplished via spying now. Was this the logic behind this?
Were you gunning for an AP victory from the start of that game?
If so I can see two explanations:
1) You made some bad moves/had some bad luck which prevented you from getting the AP built before Freddy (this would include having a really nasty starting location, or managing to miss out on all the religions).
2) Freddy actually beelined the AP and its victory in a similar way to a human player.
If the latter, that's very cool, but probably not enough to stop the AP victory being too easy in most cases.
ps. The shrine/spying thing is explained by DarkFyre99 in the new ALC thread, in case you hadn't spotted it yet.
Porphyrius
Warlord
Theocracy or spreading the AP religion is not that much of an issue actually.
No one is forced to stay in the AP religion which is often what worsens relations.
And Theology/AP are easy to get first at even on Deity so long as you focus on it from turn 1, with the current tech rate in BTS, even with no GPs.
The point of choosing many AI opponents (as i suggested earlier, in order to make a religious victory more challenging) is the vote itself. More AIs means more votes against you even from the few cities to qualify for a religious victory. Especially on a concentrated map where ones space to expand peacefully is quite limited.
Plus oceanic maps that make splitting of colonies from the AIs more likely, can make things even more intresting.
No one is forced to stay in the AP religion which is often what worsens relations.
And Theology/AP are easy to get first at even on Deity so long as you focus on it from turn 1, with the current tech rate in BTS, even with no GPs.
The point of choosing many AI opponents (as i suggested earlier, in order to make a religious victory more challenging) is the vote itself. More AIs means more votes against you even from the few cities to qualify for a religious victory. Especially on a concentrated map where ones space to expand peacefully is quite limited.
Plus oceanic maps that make splitting of colonies from the AIs more likely, can make things even more intresting.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
Great Cheesy win. Glad you are restarting the game for a traditional Isabella will. One comment, the AP vistory is not that easy on huge maps (start with 11 AIs, plus alot of colonies) although the cheesy way of gifting the missionaries works there too. Also playing a game such as big/little or medium little allows enough islnads to be settled and turned into colonies, thus making the AP win more challenging. The fractal map start gave little chance for this to happen.
My opinion is I never take the route of the cheap AP but will try it if it is a legitimate vote (several AIs have a significant number of cities with the AP religion).
My opinion is I never take the route of the cheap AP but will try it if it is a legitimate vote (several AIs have a significant number of cities with the AP religion).
Tyrant Roger
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2006
- Messages
- 203
Great win. Well played. I'm glad you nabbed an AP victory before it is nerfed.
Perhaps the easiest way to nerf the AP would be to either eliminate the religious victory option or to make it much more difficult to get the required votes. Either way the AP would remain a powerful wonder because of the other resolutions which the AP holder can bring to attack infidels, sign defensive pacts, cut off trading, transfer back conquered cities, etc.
Perhaps the easiest way to nerf the AP would be to either eliminate the religious victory option or to make it much more difficult to get the required votes. Either way the AP would remain a powerful wonder because of the other resolutions which the AP holder can bring to attack infidels, sign defensive pacts, cut off trading, transfer back conquered cities, etc.
Nice win.
I'm one of those guys that doesn't think the AP win is so cheesy, it's different that's all. This game is already won and the AP saved us alot of work so we didn't have to slaughter the rest of the AIs in the game for a more "glorious" win.
Sisiutil whould have conquered his continent and won the game anyway later, so why not end the game now if he's playing to win it?. We can watch him steamroll the rest of the AI's but I rather have it end now (TY AP) and watch a much more closer game next. Sure we can abuse the AP by gifting missionaries (if you think its chesy just don't do it) but we can abuse the tech trading, the combat mechanism and alot of other things as well. What's needed here is an AI algorithm that tell's the AI how the AP works (ending the game) and how to combat it.
But what's so wrong with having a victory option in the game that allows the game to be won early without a single shot being fired?. It may not be for everyone some people play civ to conquer, some play it as an emulation, some play it peacefully (without being able to win it before the AP came along).
I'm looking forward to the next ACL it's on emperor, things should start to heat up now.
I'm one of those guys that doesn't think the AP win is so cheesy, it's different that's all. This game is already won and the AP saved us alot of work so we didn't have to slaughter the rest of the AIs in the game for a more "glorious" win.
Sisiutil whould have conquered his continent and won the game anyway later, so why not end the game now if he's playing to win it?. We can watch him steamroll the rest of the AI's but I rather have it end now (TY AP) and watch a much more closer game next. Sure we can abuse the AP by gifting missionaries (if you think its chesy just don't do it) but we can abuse the tech trading, the combat mechanism and alot of other things as well. What's needed here is an AI algorithm that tell's the AI how the AP works (ending the game) and how to combat it.
But what's so wrong with having a victory option in the game that allows the game to be won early without a single shot being fired?. It may not be for everyone some people play civ to conquer, some play it as an emulation, some play it peacefully (without being able to win it before the AP came along).
I'm looking forward to the next ACL it's on emperor, things should start to heat up now.
How is it more "already won" than when he started the game?
It's what happened in every single ALC so far, bar one, i believe. Why does he even play the game at all, then?
It's not about being peaceful or not, or having good relations. He could have elected himself if he hadn't converted Pacal to Christianity.
Considering i quoted you, yeah, i'm pretty sure i'm addressing the points you made.
Now, if you misunderstood something, feel free to point out what, and i'll gladly explain. In the meanwhile, please make sure to drop the aggressive/offensive tone. Thank you.
Now, if you misunderstood something, feel free to point out what, and i'll gladly explain. In the meanwhile, please make sure to drop the aggressive/offensive tone. Thank you.
Kev
Hired Goon
Thanks for this input. Actually, until recently I never really went crazy going after the AP and would lose getting it more often than not. Never really seemed to interfere with my game overall, but I can certainly now see what's what. In the game I mention, it was a matter of several other civs voting FOR Freddy that gave him the victory like 4 out of 6 or something like that.
I'm thinking that the best way to "cure" this cheesiness is to nix the victory condition altogether. It's still a powerful wonder to have with the other aspects.
Florian
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2003
- Messages
- 337
Thanks for showcasing the cheese, Sisiutil. And thanks also for not accepting the cheese and moving on.
I don't want the AP victory option to be taken out of the game completely, I just want it to make a little sense. If the vote is for the presidency of the WORLD, require a WORLDWIDE majority, not a majority of some little subculture. I'd rather have it be very rare than nonexistent.
I don't want the AP victory option to be taken out of the game completely, I just want it to make a little sense. If the vote is for the presidency of the WORLD, require a WORLDWIDE majority, not a majority of some little subculture. I'd rather have it be very rare than nonexistent.
zienth
Chieftain
Incidentally, what percentage of the world was Christian when you were elected as world leader?
I think that's my biggest gripe against the current AP victory condition, you can become world leader by being elected by the majority of a minority. It'd be interesting to do a challenge game to see who can win an AP victory with votes from the smallest percentage of the world's population.
Zienth
I think that's my biggest gripe against the current AP victory condition, you can become world leader by being elected by the majority of a minority. It'd be interesting to do a challenge game to see who can win an AP victory with votes from the smallest percentage of the world's population.
Zienth
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