ALC Game #2: China/Mao

[Sisiutil]

2nd All Leaders Challenge Game: China/Mao

Pre-Game Thread

(Round 1: 4000 BC)

So we're off and running! No, actually, we're off and standing still.

To quickly recap, the idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the less-frequently used Civ IV leaders (I just finished one as Monty) on my current difficulty level, Prince. I hit upon the idea of posting the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses, and it proved pretty popular. This gives everyone a chance to play armchair quarterback and generally swap strategy ideas and see how they play out.

This time I'm playing as Mao Zedong, the Philosophical/Organized leader of China. Based upon other posters' requests, if the position lends itself to it, I'm going to try for a cultural win. In a few turns I'll know if I either have a good sized continent to myself or reasonable neighbours and room to expand to 9-12 cities. But if I'm on a big ol' chunk o' rock with Monty, Genghis, Isabella, and Toku, then forget that noise. I'll be incorprating, as much as I can, many of the excellent ideas from the pre-game show thread.

After all the debate about the starting position in the ALC Montezuma game, I thought this time I'd post the start without making a single move, though I think this time it's pretty obvious where I should go. (Yes, you'd all like to tell me where to go, wouldn't you? Get in line...)

First off, here is the game snapshot, for those of you wondering about the settings:

Now, here is the opening position I got:

I don't know about you, but I'm thinking this looks pretty darn sweet. I have not one but TWO plains hills available for settling on the second turn, and both have a cow and a wine resource within their fat cross. Lots of trees, grassland, a river and floodplains. Nice...

Oh, and based on Tyrant's insight in the Monty thread, we are, once again, north of the equator, based on how the resource arrows point downwards. The flood plains and desert lead me to believe that we're not too far north, though.

It seems to me that the obvious place to send the settler is to the plains hill to the east. The western one would give me two useless desert tiles, plus one of those difficult desert hills. And it looks like I'd be one tile from the coast; the AI might take it, but I'm thinkin' not.

The eastern hill gives me 6 grassland and what looks like at least 4 flood plain tiles (hmmm, I'll be keeping some of those forests for awhile, I think--Mao doesn't have the Expansive trait). As well, there are two additional plains hills, one forested, one not. I'll get a chance to make a final decision, of course, once the settler moves to it and looks around. I can't see what would be in the far eastern portion of the fat cross until I do.

From the looks of things, the shoreline probably extends to the northwest and to the southeast; there's probably room south of the river mouth, I'm going to wager, for a coastal city that may be able to snag that other wine tile. If not, it just goes into the capital's extended cross on the third border expansion.

Now if the Settler heads southeast to climb the eastern plains hill, where should the Warrior go? I'm thinking in the opposite direction, northwest, to the forested grassland tile.

Here's the saved game file if you want to check it out yourself, play along, etc. Though once again, please, no spoilers.

 

[eoin62]

I think I agree, the loss of turn is well worth the gains from building on the plains hill. Moving the warrior NW is also best I think, it illuminates the most squares.

Not sure about this, but don't you get a health bonus for being on the river if you settle on the plains hill spot? If so that alleviates some of the concern about the flood plains health penalty.

Also, great work on that last thread Sisiutil (and everyone else who posted), I found it to be a great way to illuminate some of the strategies discussed here on the boards. I can't wait to be able to play civ 4 again (my comp at school won't run it... darn 3-D engine...), only 2 more weeks until i can play along...

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Not sure about this, but don't you get a health bonus for being on the river if you settle on the plains hill spot? If so that alleviates some of the concern about the flood plains health penalty.

I don't believe so - the way to check is to hover over the tile to learn if it marked "Fresh Water", but it is not adjascent to the river at its base.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Not sure about this, but don't you get a health bonus for being on the river if you settle on the plains hill spot? If so that alleviates some of the concern about the flood plains health penalty.

That depends which plains hill you mean. The one to the southwest is definitely on a river, and you do get a bonus for that. The hill to the southeast, however, looks like it's at the end of the river delta but no actually on the river. That's the one drawback to that move that I see, but overall it's still probably the right call.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Well, if you are willing to postpone the settlement for one turn, you can certainly afford to run up the hill (worst case, you come back to where you are next turn and settle).

I see two possible pass routes for the warrior. My choice would probably be north (prior to moving the settler on this turn) to verify that there's nothing interesting hiding in the trees NW from there. Then move the settler (which I believe is going to pull two worthless tiles into play - the desert hill, and I suspect at least one desert tile next to it). On turn 1, I would then move the warrior NE, so that all of the northern tiles you are giving up are visible - if at that point you don't like the comparison, you can go back down. If you love the view from the hill, then the warrior continues either NE or NW, depending on mood.

 

[Sisiutil]

It's amazing to me how important these first few turns are. Later in the game, you're moving dozens of units all over the map, and inevitably a few of them go arwy. (Ever click the wrong button and have a unit disappear on you, over the hills and far away? Uh-huh? Feeling my pain, are you?) But at the start, with so few units and so little time to start catching up to the AI, every move is crucial.

 

[The Tyrant]

Okay, I'm going to buck the trend here and say settle in place. Moving SE would get you a bonus hammer but the tradeoff would be a reduction in health bonus (not adjacent to river and additional flood plains) along with a possible reduction in the number of available hills (depending on what is revealed). With the available forests, this would be okay in the early game, giving you a bit of a production boost. Over the length of the entire game, though, it would mean a substantial reduction in production. I think it would be better to forego the short-term (relatively minor) boost in favor of the long-term benefits of higher health and higher production. Unless you're going to count on forests for most of your capital's production ability, you're going to need that hill to be mined instead of settled on.

Of course, if you want to step up on the hill just to check, it would only mean a one-turn delay if you have to move back to settle the original location. Still, since it is clear that moving to the hill would add flood plains and negate the health bonus of fresh water, you would have to be counting on the fogged tiles revealing something really, really sweet to make moving worthwhile. I just don't think it is likely that anything that sweet would be revealed.

Edit: (Several hours after posting the two paragraphs above) One of the things I love about this game is how you can agonize over a single choice and the long-term effects that choice can have. That's what I've been doing the last few hours -- playing devil's advocate with myself. I still came to the conclusion that I think it best to settle in place, but it really boils down to 1) Settle on plains hill to help early expansion. REX is king. Get cities out early and it won't matter if the capital has less long-term potential than it could have otherwise. The drop in health will be offset by the many forests around. 2) Settle in place for long-term potential for the capital. If you chop forests to help along an early settler or two, the bonus hammer from the hill will pale in comparison. If you settled on the hill you would want to leave as many forests as possible for health and production reasons, and therefore couldn't chop to help REX. Here we are post-patch and I'm basing my thoughts of initial city location on the question of to-chop-or-not-to-chop. What can I say? I chop.

 

[JoeBlade]

I agree with the previous posters; I'd settle on the spot too. In my experience floodplains often imply that moving equals netting desert tiles, which is undesirable for the capital.

As an aside: I've played a Mao game last night (inspired by your thread) and found myself on an average-sized continent with only Gandhi for neighbour (this was on a small map, mind). Luckily, I managed to cut him off from the bulk of the continent with a mere 4 cities. Also, I discovered a superb second city spot right next to my capital: clams, pigs, spices, 2 flood plains and stone. I turned that city into a GP/wonder farm and focused on peaceful expansion until about 500AD.
The results were plain amazing: I built Stonehenge, pulled off a CoL slingshot, founded three religions (Confucianism, Christianity and Islam) and was consistly ahead in tech, despite having only 4 cities all this time. Moreover, my resources weren't all that great. I had iron and stone, true, but no copper or marble and a meager 4 happiness and 4 health resources.
The best part however was that I managed to keep research at 100% nearly all this time; that Organised trait really shone there.
Ironically, two of the wonders I missed out on, Pyramids and Great Library, had been built by Gandhi. Since he shared my religion - i.e. I could repeatedly attack him while keeping him at cautious - and there was no one around to witness I quietly took over his lands, acquiring those wonders as well in the process. Delhi turned out to be one fantastic science city.
Eventually I switched to Pacifism, Mercantilism, Caste System and Representation. This allowed me to churn out even more GP's while keeping the tech lead. By the time I met the other civs I was still well ahead in techs (they only had Horseback riding and Construction on me) and had discovered liberalism first.
The only issue I had when I stopped (around 1400AD) was serious lack of health, due to the limited resources. The game's pretty much in the bag though, either a cultural or, failing that, diplomatic win are both very possible. Failing that my tech lead pretty much guarantees me a spaceship vicotry.

It's clear that this only worked well because I had a single, peaceful neighbour and due to the great 2nd city spot (GP farm) While I did discover Machinery very early the CKN weren't that much of a help either. True, they helped overcome the lack of catapults but Construction was ludicrously cheap in terms of turns, taking that instead of machinery would've been just as effective.

All in all: if you can take advantage of your philo trait, I'd strongly recommend you do so. The organised trait allows putting off commerce-oriented techs for quite some time (I only started building markets around 1000AD; the lowest my science rate ever dropped is 70%) allowing you to focus on wonders an GP's and building up a substantial tech lead in the process.

 

[pigswill]

Had a quick peek at the save game; blue circle is around the settler's start position which aint worth much strategically but often means there's resources available that you can't see at the moment. Otherwise you're choosing between 2 health and 1 production. River location also means possible free trade routes depending on what you find. So overall I'd say settle on the river.
OTOH long term you're also choosing between a riverside town and a mine. Despite that I'd still say settle on the river.

 

[The Tyrant]

eoin62 -- I just realized that was your first post up there. Welcome to CFC! I hope these two weeks fly by for you. I'm so addicted to Civ IV right now I don't want to imagine what it would be like not being able to play. Ack!

 

[voek]

Well i tend to agree with Tyrant for the health reason. You are planning for cultural vic. which means imo your empire won't be to big. Maybe conquer 1 or 2 civs? (if they are on the continent offcourse) Normally i would go for the plain hill since i like 2 hammers a lot. early warrior is early exploration, which is good for strategy. I also realy like to worker grab at the beginning, so i usualy don't built a worker first but take one hostage, which means i need a little more warriors just in case he is throwing archers at me.

The other two good points of moving on top of that plains hill would be that you settle near the cow rightaway and make use of it before expanding your culture borders. The other point is extra defence in your capital. The downside is you lose one turn moving your settler. I would take into account the blue circle also btw. (not showing right now)

But like i said, if your going cultural and dont plan to get big, you might be short in health. I usualy expand and capturing resources as a result. So i rarely face real healt problems and i only play emperor games. But in this situation i might settle for the health. Q: what is your basic health level at prince level?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Q: what is your basic health level at prince level?

Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4HandicapInfo.xml

Health Bonus: 2
Happy Bonus: 4

 

[Thrar]

I'd go with the eastern hill.
Regarding desert, there will be at worst 3 tiles of it, which I think isn't a big deal until very late - once that city gets to at least size 17.
Tyrant, what you're saying about chopping and health is quite true, but don't underestimate that extra hammer in comparison. A chop gives you 20 hammers. If you go with worker first, you'd need 60/3=20 turns (not on hill) to build it in the first place, by then you'd already have earned the hammers from 1 forest by settling on the hill. By the time you have chopped the second forest (4+1 move = 5 turns each), you're only up 10 hammers over the plains/hill start. Once you stop chopping, the plains/hill location recovers that fast.

 

[pigswill]

Choices are: Start location health bonus; SE hill production bonus; SW hill health + production +desert tiles. Once you've settled its a bit late so recon first I'd say, you're not in a religion race this time.Move warrior north,settler se on hill;next turn move warrior ne first then decide with a bit more info.
Voek:regarding cow,you'll get it in the fat cross within 5 turns and no major bonus till animal husbandry (and I reckon Sisiutil will probably go worker/bronze-working start).

 

[voek]

Normally i wouldn't bother taking such a long time to study this starting screen, but since i was doing this i noticed something. The warrior is standing on top of a hill. The fog is cleared 2 squares to the SE and the same to the SW.

But, you dont have a view (2 squares) to the NW (NE is cleared by the settler). So why isn't this cleared? I wonder. Maybe there is high ground, which would imply mountain/hills? Maybe it's nothing, but it woould be nice to know if there is high ground due te NW. Maybe it's the forest in the tile NW of the warrior 'blocking' his view. Anyone?

@pigswill, yes it takes 'only' 5 turns for the cows to become workable, but 5 turns is still 5 more food. Taking everything into account, that's all.

 

[Xanikk999]

I would check out the plains hills by moving your warrior east.

If it looks good enough for the capital i would warrant the turn loss by moving your settler onto the plains hill. The extra production would help and i think there are more hills back there.

So you could probably get a little production and some commerce to start off with if you move that way.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I would check out the plains hills by moving your warrior east.

The warrior won't see anything new if he moves one square east. That tile isn't a hill, and the forest will also block his view. Unless you're talking about moving him 2 tiles east, but then you might as well just move the settler to the hill on turn one and let the warrior do his own thing.

 

[Sisiutil]

Well, thanks for making this so easy, gang... Cripes, it's only the first turn and I'm already paralyzed!

Pigswill, once again, your advice makes sense. I'm not in a race to found religions this time around, so up the hill for a look-see the Settler goes. On the following turn, based on what I see, I'll either build on the hill or move back down to the fresh water grassland tile and build there.

Don't get me wrong, if I end up trying for a cultural win I want to found (or capture) a couple of religions. Based on what Mao starts with, however, the chances (and utility) of snagging one of the early three are slim. I think I have a better chance of Confucianism from a CoL slingshot (especially if I have marble) and Christianity from a Stonehenge GP. In a game where I manage both of those, Divine Right and Islam become attractive mainly because the Spiral Minaret is a useful wonder when you have holy cities and shrines.

Voek, it's been my experience that in the game that forests cut off your view of what you can see beyond them, which makes sense. It's why you reveal more terrain by moving onto an unforested hill compared to a forested one.

 

[Oggums]

I think I have a better chance of Confucianism from a CoL slingshot (especially if I have marble) and Christianity from a Stonehenge GP.

I would definitely shoot for Oracle -> CoL to found Confucianism.

Here's what I'd do with Philosophical, especially if you're going for cultural:

- Send your free Confucian missionary to your capital and build your temple, then run a priest (along with Oracle points) to induce a quicker Great Prophet.

- While your Prophet is being generated, research the Prereqs for Theology.

- Use your first Prophet found Theology. Send your free Christian missionary to your capital, and build a Christian temple. Run two Priests to speed along your second Prophet.

- Use your second Prophet to nab Civil Service!

Bonus Points:
Generate a third Prophet and use him to help research Philosophy and found a third religion!!! (careful on your research path, unless you want Islam to show up instead...which is still a good thing anyway)

 

[mathieu_gilbert]

And another great thread, I'm learning so much... thanks.

Being fairly new to Civ IV, I'm having a hard time seeing the ressources. Would it be possible to turn on the grid and ressources option in the next screenshot? It would help me a ton as well as many others I'd imagine... if not it's no biggie.

Again, this is a great idea and very helpfull.