[BTS] NZ's Shadow Game - Immortal Zulu

[Fippy]

Well imo worker steals are not a 100% guaranteed profit like settling on a ph i.e.
Luck based what his worker does and if it's reachable, if an archer guards it or not..and so on.
I would time it like posted here: Which i think works with plains forest for 1t (1 food) and 7x3 food (soon cows) for 22 total.

So (with reload of Ikhanda) we have 4 for 1t (plains forest) + 6 during 3t of floodplains worked + 20 during 4t of cows.
30 total for 2 warriors & size 2, smooth transition into settler build.

 

[sampsa]

Well imo worker steals are not a 100% guaranteed profit like settling on a ph i.e.
Luck based what his worker does and if it's reachable, if an archer guards it or not..and so on.

Yeah, intuitively I'd just try to maximize the success by getting the warrior asap into place. The faster you get there the smaller the chance the worker is guarded. I know you know all of this. Also it's kind of hard to prove one way is better than another, need to just go by gut.

So (with reload of Ikhanda) we have 4 for 1t (plains forest) + 6 during 3t of floodplains worked + 20 during 4t of cows.
30 total for 2 warriors & size 2, smooth transition into settler build.

True, timing works great and it's only 2T later warrior. I don't object to this really.

 

[soundjata]

IDK about the worker steal option as well. Risk/Reward?

Among the suggestions given by Sampsa, my vote is:
1. Settler size 1
2. Grow to 2 building 2 warriors (see Fippy)
3. Worker steal experiment (max hammers on warrior)

 

[Fippy]

Ran a quick test game
Size 1 settler takes 14t.

Size 2 takes 19t, but we'd have a city that can work cows & floodplains farm. At size 1 you'd then have to pick between those.
+ ofc 2 worker steal lurkers. It's also fun trying that..and reasonable on Immortal.

 

[sampsa]

Size 2 takes 19t, but we'd have a city that can work cows & floodplains farm. At size 1 you'd then have to pick between those.

Two size 1 cities also work cows and floodplain farm (which wins 22 from city center compared to a size 2 city). I guess your point is that a city working both grows faster. But okay now we are getting back to numbers that were already discussed and I have nothing really to add to what I previously said.

Maybe I misunderstand, but it seems people intuitively think that size 1 cities are bad, but it's simply not true.

 

[Fippy]

Nope i don't think size 1 cities are bad..they all start there.
Was just writing down why a 5t settler delay isn't so bad compared to what we get with a size 2 plan.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

So that's how the aggressive trait is used? Stealing workers?

 

[pigswill]

Sounds good to me (if it works). Ultimately its for NZ to decide.

 

[drewisfat]

If you steal one worker usually a busy worker next to it won't react. Can't tell you why, but that's how I usually end up with multiple worker steals. Of course, excess defending units can react, so even if captured that second worker can get recaptured next turn.
I'm not opposed to worker stealing, just think it has a better risk/return at the very start - we could have grown on warriors instead of worker first. I also prefer to grow the city a bit over grabbing a size 1 settler, because as BiC pointed out if we lose that spot we don't have a timely backup (other spots require TW or fishing). The thing is we've already picked AH first, and that mostly made sense to me assuming size 1 settler.

 

[drewisfat]

Yes, but I have a general preference for not teching AH just for a plains cow. I think that's more stylistic than a 'mistake'. However, I definitely would have picked BW over AH if I wanted to grow to size 3-4 before going settler. That's a sidegrade improvement over a farmed FP, while adding a chop at the end to speed up the settler would definitely be beneficial. I agree that mixing and matching different good ideas can be worse than wholeheartedly committing to a bad gameplan like Sampsa's

Look at the bright side though. It's a great testament to civ 4 that a bunch of veterans can look at the same map and come up with different ideas on how to proceed.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Sorry things have been a bit crazy the last few days - will absorb everything, make my mind up and move forward in the next couple of days.