ALC Game #6 Pre-Game Show: playing as Louis

[Killroyan]

Diplomatic victory could be very interesting with Louis. Grabbing a lot of land at start because of creative is possible.

Using the musketeers for the scorched earth tactics is also a possibility. Get two groups of 4 to pillage towns/resources. It is very hard to damage this stack if they have like Combat I/cover/shock/formation (pick one). Just let them go in first and have the AI throw some armies at them. Then come in with the macemen/cata's. Could be a fun tactic to take out some opponents.

When settled for a good landmass try to get the real diplomatic victory but as always so much depends on the map and your advisaries. I like route 1 better because of the metal casting for the cheap forges. But route 2 is definitely more fun because I have never seen a beeline so fast to gunpowder.

 

[pigswill]

If you're going for a diplomatic victory then you'll be developing power blocs. So aim to go to war alongside allies against mutual foes. The aim of these wars would be not to acquire more territory (you should have done this already) but purely to weaken opponents; pillaging, defending on enemy resources or just wooded hill outside enemy cities to deter workers from restoring pillaged resources and of course as a mobile defence when your enemies come attacking you. If you don't aim to attack enemy cities then city raider promotion is irrelevant.

 

[Killroyan]

Nice tactic pigswill. Totally crippling the enemies development with musketeers near cities. You could even use guerilla I and II for the musketeers then to become really annoying for the AI. Now that would be fun to see.

 

[cabert]

Very opinions already
I'm sure we're going to see some action.
Diplomatic may be good, but it's a bit early to say so, isn't it?

About musketeers, i don't agree with the general "no city cpaturing unit" idea.
I very often use musketmen for city taking, even when they are not my UU (to be true, i have yet to play as France, but i swear i will if France wins the World Cup again ).
Against archer CG 2
musket : Strength 9 +combat 2 = 10,8 vs 3*(1,5 + 0,25, + 0,45) = 6,6
mace : strength 8 with CR 2 = 8 vs 3*(1,5 +0,25+0,45 - 0,45) = 5,25

with R = A/D, you have
R(musket) = 1,64
R(mace) = 1,52
Plus muskets ignore walls and castles.
Definitely, muskets can capture cities.

Against longbows, you'll need catapults of course.

My way would be :
go for BW ASAP, then pottery (granaries are needed for effective slavery)

start an early war (land grab comes free, creative rules = not too much barbaric activity) = 1/4 at least of the continent is yours, and one less opponent.
+ cottage spam like mad (you're not financial, you're not organized = you will need mature cottages early)
then some useful "worker" tech (AH? fishing? masonry? hint hint) depending on available bonus, then go for route 2 + alphabet.
once you hit gunpowder, go back for construction (or pointy stick research it).
Well, i'm anxious to see the game (i'm sure it will be fun)

 

[futurehermit]

isn't

strength 8 with CR 2 = 8

wrong? the effective strength of maces with cr2 when attacking cities is much higher than 8.

 

[cabert]

isn't wrong? the effective strength of maces with cr2 when attacking cities is much higher than 8.

no the CR bonus is in fact substracted of the defender's bonus. Just as good, when the defender has no bonus, but that happens rarely. I have yet to see a city without an archer (50% bonus inside a city, 25% from fortifying = 75% bonus minimum).

Yet my example is biased. Against a longbow, macemen do better than musketmen AFAIK.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One note on Diplomativ Victory, you Don't want your Allies to have too much population. Population wise your allies should be third or below.... you and one of the "Enemies" should be First and Second
(You don't want one of your allies running against you, that could split your whole alliance block)

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Diplomatic may be good, but it's a bit early to say so, isn't it?

It's too early to commit, of course, but it's not to early to start thinking about what sorts of things will need to happen to make it work.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I'm still trying to think of a good way to use musketeers. Here's one idea, though after writing this out, I'm not sure I actually like the idea.

One of the other unique units that usually takes a lot of criticism is the jaguar warrior. I feel like its primary advantage is that it synergizes with the Aggressive trait, making sure that even if you get cheated on metal, you can still manage some early warfare to get some value from the trait.

So what if there's a way to do something similar with the musketeer? Can the musketeer somehow enhance Louis' Creative or Industrious traits? If we assume that the game designers knew what they were doing, then the Industrious trait is the most likely candidate, since Napoleon also needs to get some use out of the musketeer, but he is not Creative.

Industrious leads to a wonder oriented strategy. My best theory on how this would work has to do with the resources that increase the speed of building wonders. Since you want to be beating your opponents to many wonders, you want to make sure that they don't have access to stone or marble (and possibly copper), especially if you don't have those resources yourself. An opponent with stone can actually outbuild an industrious leader without stone. This works well with the pillaging approach that seems to be recommended. The main difference is that you probably wouldn't normally focus on wonder resources as the target of your pillaging attacks.

So to confirm or deny the validity of this tactic, lets look at what wonders would be most likely to be helped by this approach. What wonders become available around the same general timeframe as Gunpowder and can be accelerated by access to a particular resource?

• Statue of Liberty / Democracy / Copper
• The Taj Mahal / Nationalism / Marble

Hmm. Honestly, that's about all I'm seeing. Maybe you could also include the Divine Right wonders (Versailles / Marble and The Spiral Minaret / Stone), but really if you want those, you probably researched Divine Right earlier. If you really beeline for Gunpowder, maybe you can get it in the Notre Dame / Stone and Sistine Chapel / Marble era, but that seems like a stretch. This also assumes that you're willing and able to go to war with whoever has stone or marble and is likely to beat you to the wonder. That may not be realistic on a continents map.

Anyway, it's a thought. The short version is use musketeers for pillaging, and in particular pillage stone and marble to facilitate your own wonder building. I'm not convinced it makes sense, but I really want to find some reason that the musketeer isn't totally useless.

 

[Sisiutil]

Okay, so I think we're looking at a balanced approach towards Gunpowder. I'd still like to get it earlier than I normally do, but not at the expense of everything else. If I win the Liberalism race, I may select it as my free tech.

Assuming the opportunity presents itself, I'll try to use the Musketeers as directed--as pillagers and harassers. I like the idea of quickly moving them through defensive terrain to the enemy's source of metals, then pillaging it AND squatting on it. Evil.

(One thing these threads is revealing to me is that there are only a handful of UUs that are truly worth a devoted bee-line, and they're all early. Praetorians and War Chariots deserve that sort of focus. Even medieval units, though, come on the scene late enough that you should still have taken a balanced approach to your research.)

As for the win, yeah, it's of course way to early to commit to a diplomatic win. However, none of the ALCs thus far have truly focused on diplomacy, and I have probably been too busy warmongering to be fussy about it. So even if I eventually choose another win condition, it would be interesting, I think, if better diplomatic relations was a secondary goal of the game.

Like a lot of players, I suspect, when I meet a new AI civ, my first thought is what I can get from them. What probably makes more sense is to do a quick, non-commital meet-and-greet, then go check the diplomatic advisor. Who likes that civ? Who hates them? Who will I tick off/please by trading with them, ignoring them, or attacking them? And how does doing any of those things benefit my relations in the long run? If other civs on my continent are also just making first contact with this new civ, it may also make sense to wait a few turns before making any moves or commitments, just to see how relations evolve.

Since the French lack a devastating UU, it makes sense to throttle back the warmongering a bit and work on diplomacy. It makes historical sense, too--French was the language of diplomacy for much of the 18th and 19th centuries, IIRC. Vive la politesse!

I will start the game thread with the opening position tonight.

 

[pigswill]

One thing that occurs to me is maybe having a parellel research route via metal,machinery for optics and macemen. If you're looking to expand the role of diplomacy then early contact with other continent would be part of this.

 

[Sisiutil]

One thing that occurs to me is maybe having a parellel research route via metal,machinery for optics and macemen. If you're looking to expand the role of diplomacy then early contact with other continent would be part of this.

Not a bad idea. I was considering an Oracle-powered Metal Casting slingshot this time around to get those Forges early on, and going after optics could easily follow from that. It should also mean winning the circumnav as a side benefit. In several of my games, the AI shows up with Caravels first, and I have to scramble to get mine in the water. It would be nice to turn that around for a change.

I still think some land-grabbing and an early war will be necessary to have enough liebensraum, if I may use a term from a language that most Frenchmen would choke upon. After that, though, it would be refreshing to war less and build more. Especially with that Industrual trait. I could see myself warring for stone and/or marble in the early game.

Talking about building peacefully and diplomacy brings me back, ironically, to the Musketeers. How do they rate in terms of the power graph--i.e., as a deterrent?

 

[Sisiutil]

The game thread is now underway. Go to it, gang!

 

[cabert]

I still think some land-grabbing and an early war will be necessary to have enough liebensraum, if I may use a term from a language that most Frenchmen would choke upon.

I suppose you meant "Lebensraum", and not a german whorehouse?
If so, you're supposed to be french so say "espace vital".
If you really meant "Liebe", then say "bordel"

 

[Sisiutil]

I suppose you meant "Lebensraum", and not a german whorehouse?
If so, you're supposed to be french so say "espace vital".
If you really meant "Liebe", then say "bordel"

Serves me right for straying away from my mother tongue.

I have bad luck with German. Once, in a Bavarian restaurant, I mis-spoke and ordered Black Forest cake, but I substituted "schwein" (pig) for "schwarte" (black). The waitress raised an eyebrow, fought off a smirk, and gently corrected me.

(I probably misspelled both words, too, which just proves my point.)

 

[cabert]

playing France, there is no need to speak german

And since France lost the world cup to italy, i'll play Rome next time...
Should be easier

 

[Sisiutil]

playing France, there is no need to speak german

And since France lost the world cup to italy, i'll play Rome next time...
Should be easier

Yeah, but Praetorians don't exactly lend themselves to a catenaccio style of play, do they?

 

[cabert]

Yeah, but Praetorians don't exactly lend themselves to a catenaccio style of play, do they?

behind french myself, catenaccio isn't my game