ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

[Eqqman]

This screenshot looks very favorable to me for the Metal Casting Pyramids. To pull that off I would found Berlin on the tile west of the Cows and then post another screenshot showing the terrain revealed after you've moved your Scout. I can just see some trees in the blackness in the east, so at the moment I'd expect founding the second city on the plains hill two east and one up from the Cows. I can start working it out in a few hours or so but there is already enough revealed in this image to tell you the exact date you'd have a GE out to make the Pyramids. Going the Metal Casting route, early Bronze will actualy be a mistake, so I'd recommend not doing anything other than founding Berlin before you post another image so we have a chance to run our calculations.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Based on futurehermit's thread on this strategy, I'll be researching Bronze Working first. Correct me if I'm wrong. The recommended first city build is Worker - Settler. Freddy starts with Mining, which is great for this strat.

He also starts with Hunting, which... um... isn't.

Unless you are expecting to settle within your cultural borders (which isn't possible until 25 turns or so have gone by anyway), you are likely to want something a little bit more robust than a scout as an escort for the settler. (Using the scout isn't hopeless, but he leverages much better as a scout).

On top of that, Worker -> Settler basically throws away what little advantage Hunting offers in the opening. Not entirely - you still have the original scout, and if you catch copper on the river you can build Spears! how terribly exciting.

Pastured cows will support one specialist, and the city another, so (Hunting)->Animal Loving->Writing gets you two specialists up and going, but with not much food to spare... unless you've got some corn or wheat hiding in the shadows.

Actually, it looks to me as though food could be a problem long term as well - I can't be sure without the rest of the cross, but even eight watermills might not be enough for production central. (Remember, those hills do you no good if you can't feed them).

On the other hand, if you really want to try futurehermit's opening, don't be wishy washy about it. This is probably the wrong start for the strat, but it's certainly the wrong start if you don't go all out.

 

[Sisiutil]

Sorry, I forgot to attach the saved game file. I'll correct that tonight.

futurehermit has not weighed in yet, and I'd like his input before I make my next move. But yes, the Scout will definitely look around before I do anything with the Settler.

Moving east is tempting for production, but remember the top concern is always food. Cows are a good food resource, but not a great one like, say, an irrigated wheat tile, or pigs. If it's mostly plains hills to the east, I'm going to have problems working mines without enough food. Also remember that I'm aiming for the Pyramids, so I won't have the population to work every single mined hill anyway.

It sounds like Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry may be the initial research route. If I have horses nearby and hook them up, I can rely on Chariots for early defense. AH will also help towards Pottery and Writing. Usually I have my Worker build roads if there's nothing else for him to do while he waits for research to complete, but in this case and for this strategy, he'd be building farms.

I'm also tempted to build a Scout first to leverage the Hunting starting tech a little more. Scouts, and more of them, means more terrain revealed, often including more tribal villages. If I can get gold (or even better, tech) from them, it could help me out a lot.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

AH will also help towards Pottery

AH & Pottery both help toward Writing. Agriculture and Fishing both help toward Pottery.

 

[pigswill]

I think I'll shadow this one with a vanilla cottage approach (as soon as a save is available, no real rush).

 

[Sisiutil]

I think I'll shadow this one with a vanilla cottage approach (as soon as a save is available, no real rush).

That would be very interesting for comparison. Good idea.

AH & Pottery both help toward Writing. Agriculture and Fishing both help toward Pottery.

DUH. I should check the Info Centre before making statements like that.

 

[Betafor]

This game is supposed to be about doing something new. I like the oracle/metalcasting/forge/GE pyramid rush strat rather than the just build pyramid strat because it will help immmensly for those of us who want to see a good step by step, while helping you learn as well. I'm eagerly watching this ALC because i really want to improve my sub-par specialist strat.

 

[Sisiutil]

This game is supposed to be about doing something new. I like the oracle/metalcasting/forge/GE pyramid rush strat rather than the just build pyramid strat because it will help immmensly for those of us who want to see a good step by step, while helping you learn as well. I'm eagerly watching this ALC because i really want to improve my sub-par specialist strat.

Yeah, I really want to try that as well. I've never done it before, so it should be interesting and informative to give it a go.

Mind you, if I luck out and have stone nearby, I'm not going to delay the Pyramids just to see if this tactic works!

 

[Eqqman]

futurehermit has not weighed in yet, and I'd like his input before I make my next move.

Bah! I'm officially insulted . Using only the tiles I see in the screenshot you can have the Metal Casting version of Pyramids out in 975 BC. It will be faster if there is a 3F unimproved tile revealed nearby in your explorations.

EDIT: I forgot about the delayed switch to the slavery civic (do just before you need to use it on the Oracle) so it's actually 950 BC.

Tech path: Animal Husbandry -> Wheel -> Mysticism -> BronzeWorking -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> Pottery

Settler moves to found Berlin on the hill west of the cows turn #2 and starts on a Worker. Next build is a Settler. The completion of the Settler times exactly with being finished with Mysticism. So the third build is an Obelisk. The Obelisk is worked on until you get as many hammers into it as you can without going over. By my estimate this will be 28/30 hammers and you will have to work a no-hammer riverine grasslands tile to prevent finishing the build in the turn you hit 28 hammers. You then queue swap to whatever you want to build, switching to make the Oracle the second it is available. Berlin is growing on the Cows until it reaches size three. Then you have to give the Cows over to Hamburg so that Hamburg can use the cows to grow to size three. The Oracle is finished with whip overflow from finishing the Obelisk, chopping the two forests we can see are adjacent to the Berlin proposed site, and 1 pop whipped directly on the Oracle. You'll need to produce 8 hammers per turn for 3 turns in Berlin which you can do with working a plains hill Mine + forested plains hill at a food loss for 1 turn then work the grasslands forest instead of the plains forest. EDIT: After further review it looks like Berlin has time to get a Barracks up to close to 59/60 hammers which will be more handy long-term than the Obelisk.

The first Worker makes the Pasture, then makes a Mine on the hill south of the proposed Berlin site. Then you start making roads until Bronzeworking is available. The first two tiles that need roads are the two trees in between Berlin and the site for Hamburg so that Hamburg can be founded on the tile 2 over and 1 up from the Cows on the turn after the Settler is done. After these you are connecting up all the other trees that you plan to chop later. Hamburg will make a Worker and then start but not finish an Obelisk. Once Berlin is at size 3 then Hamburg gets the Cows until it has reached size 3. The Forge is done in Hamburg from overflow on whipping the Obelisk, 1 point whipped into the Forge, and 3 chopped trees. The biggest drawback in the plan is the fact that only one good food tile is shown, if any other pop up then the plan only gets better. A lot of tech advances are precisiely timed with when you need them, and you will be completing Pottery the same turn you finish the Oracle. Tech research is evaluated before production, so you can still get Metal Casting (I've already had cause to verify this in another game I played).

 

[Eqqman]

Mind you, if I luck out and have stone nearby, I'm not going to delay the Pyramids just to see if this tactic works!

To be honest, unless the Stone appears in the fat cross of your Capital, it is frequently (but not always) as slow or slower to get the Pyramids via building the Quarry if you don't have enough trees nearby to really cash in. I've had the same results with starting with Marble- it actually hasn't proved to be a help in the earlier Oracle time since you still have tech research to accomplish and you need the second city ready to go with the Forge at a moment's notice.

 

[Sisiutil]

Thank you, Eggman, for mapping that out so thoroughly.

Now watch me screw it up.

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot--if we've now determined the location of the first two cities, where should the scout go?

 

[Eqqman]

Well, this is certainly something I've thought of as a downside to the Metal Casting plan in the context of your ALC series. If you don't see how this naturally plays out, then you're relying more heavily on the community to help you avoid mistakes and moving more slowly in the early turns of the game. I could provide an exact list of all the Worker moves too but that isn't exactly going to be fun for you. Chopping the Pyramids is easy to manage and is done in a comparable amount of time, so it may be worthwhile just to avoid the headaches of the Metal Casting micromanagement if you're not used to that kind of thing.

I was very surprised that that timeline still comes close with just these few tiles. Playing on Prince gives just enough of a tech discount (vs Monarch) to pull it off. I'd expect your explorations will reveal some source of 3F nearby so the real time would be back in the 1000s BC. If you decide to chop the Pyramids I may run a shadow game long enough to see how long the MC route actually takes.

I believe Cabert mentioned you'd be 'crazy' to settle on the Wine. Crazy like a fox! In a specialist-heavy game where you aren't concerned with making Commerce directly, loss of a Wine is no big deal. Going the MC way to the Pyramids you need to squeeze out every coin you can to finish the tech research when you need it. A 2F/2H/2C base tile for the city is great! Plus you get the happiness bonus from the Wine the instant you acquire Monarchy. Malekithe made a related comment about Calendar resources in GoTM8, the exploitation tech comes late enough that you gain little by planning around that bonus from the start of the game. Settle on the tile and take the immedate benefits you can get. I'd have to rework the numbers but founding Berlin on the Wine might shave a turn or two off the MC time, but I think I'd still prefer the other spot since the Wine doesn't get fresh water.

 

[malekithe]

I believe Cabert mentioned you'd be 'crazy' to settle on the Wine. Crazy like a fox! In a specialist-heavy game where you aren't concerned with making Commerce directly, loss of a Wine is no big deal. Going the MC way to the Pyramids you need to squeeze out every coin you can to finish the tech research when you need it. A 2F/2H/2C base tile for the city is great! Plus you get the happiness bonus from the Wine the instant you acquire Monarchy. Malekithe made a related comment about Calendar resources in GoTM8, the exploitation tech comes late enough that you gain little by planning around that bonus from the start of the game. Settle on the tile and take the immedate benefits you can get. I'd have to rework the numbers but founding Berlin on the Wine might shave a turn or two off the MC time, but I think I'd still prefer the other spot since the Wine doesn't get fresh water.

If the wine were on a river as well, it would be worth it. But, as it's not, settling the city there would only be worth 1C, not 2. If you're looking to settle on a hill, choose either the one to the NE or 2 to the west, I'd say.

 

[Sisiutil]

A few people have already said they'd like to see the MC/GE Pyramids rush pulled off (or at least attempted), and I haven't done it before, so some hand-holding up to that point is not, I think, a bad thing. Especially since it illustrates some of the tactics for that strategy, such as building the first two cities within three tiles of one another and having them share a vital resource tile. The use of the Obelisk with whipping for a hammer overflow is also an interesting tactic, though it would be even more beneficial to a non-creative civ.

As for settling on wine--I've come to see settling on calendar/monarchy resources as very useful. Almost all of them provide an immediate commerce boost, plus instant access to the resource and its benefits with the discovery of the required tech. I also tend to find that cottages, farms, and mines are better tile improvements than most plantations anyway, so I don't regret the loss of being able to improve the tile. The only exception is bananas, which provide so much food that you'd never want to settle on them.

 

[Eqqman]

If the wine were on a river as well, it would be worth it. But, as it's not, settling the city there would only be worth 1C, not 2. If you're looking to settle on a hill, choose either the one to the NE or 2 to the west, I'd say.

I'd assumed that the Wine would provide +1C to the city's base tile, in the manner that if I settled on Rice for example I get +1F. But I checked it out, and you're right it doesn't, so in that event there is little reason to settle on the Wine.

 

[Eqqman]

If you're looking to settle on a hill, choose either the one to the NE or 2 to the west, I'd say.

Soley from what we can see in the picture, the NE hill is guaranteed 3 forests and would make a good Forge city. If the Scout reveals more trees off to the west, then either of those hills might be fine for the Forge. However it's better to have as many of the trees as possible lying in between the cities to minimize Worker turns during the Pyramids building. If you decide to simply chop the Pyramids directly, then I'd have no particular preference over either spot.

 

[Sisiutil]

First off, I added the initial saved game file to the thread's opening post.

Second, I moved the Scout two tiles SW onto the southern plains hill, and this is what he revealed:

So no additional food resources, but we have several more forests at our disposal. There's also more river, so the surrounding terrain will be relatively easy to irrigate. There also appears to be a desert to the south and west, and the headwaters of another river to the south. Could be floodplains down there.

That would be a little surprising, though. Usually on a continents map the human player starts close to the polar region. This terrain would seem to indicate we're closer to the equator.

I see no reason to negate the Eggman's plan of Berlin on the plains hill 2W of the Settler and the 2nd city (Hamburg) on the other hill 2NE. We sacrifice some of the late-game potential of one or both cities in exchange for achieving a substantial advantage--namely, building the Pyramids and jumping to Representation as early as possible.

Thoughts?

 

[Araqiel]

I'd assumed that the Wine would provide +1C to the city's base tile, in the manner that if I settled on Rice for example I get +1F. But I checked it out, and you're right it doesn't, so in that event there is little reason to settle on the Wine.

Yeah it has to be on a river for it to work. Does the financial trait affect that calculation though? I need to dig up that thread that explains it all.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Tech path: Animal Husbandry -> Wheel -> Mysticism -> BronzeWorking -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> Pottery

Pottery isn't researchable at this point. See previous comment to Sisutil.

I'd assumed that the Wine would provide +1C to the city's base tile, in the manner that if I settled on Rice for example I get +1F. But I checked it out, and you're right it doesn't, so in that event there is little reason to settle on the Wine.

Yeah it has to be on a river for it to work. Does the financial trait affect that calculation though? I need to dig up that thread that explains it all.

You have to go a long way into the thread to find the right answer.

Short form: you get 2F/1C/1P from a tile unless the plot originally had a higher value for one of those elements before you settle it, after the overlays are removed. So a food resource on grassland becomes 3F/1C/1P, a commerce resource next to a river becomes 2F/2C/1P, a strategic resource on a plains hill becomes 2F/1C/3P.

Your 3F/1C/0P flood plain is an overlay, so when you settle it the floodplain is destroyed, and you end up with 2F/1C/1P in the city. The same thing happens to forests.

Financial does affect this (which is why Stuporstar's Complete Guide to Terrain... gets it wrong - he used Washington as the leader for his examples).

Edit: fixed commerce resource.

 

[Araqiel]

Don't you mean 1P and 2P for your commerce and plains hill examples?

I don't think you quite answered my question. Does a financial civilization gain the extra commerce if they settle on a commerce resource thats not next a river?