ALC Game #8: Alexander/Greece

Cookie Crumbs said:
Well, there's be no other way to increase GP points either unless you happen to get a religion in Athens. As long as you get the Engineer running eight turns after the Oracle is finished, you get your GP with 96 GE points in the engineer city, which is what I think you're suggesting, that gives you a GE 18 turns after the GP. I don't play Standard speed so I can't say if that is long or not.
Actually that could work out really nicely.

Build axes/swords to fight the first war whilst waiting for the GE to pop and then use the plunder money from that to instantly upgrade to an army of CR2/3 maces for the second. No need to pause the conquest, which should make liberating this continent quite speedy, allowing for a streamlined beeline to astronomy.
 
Round 1: to 2720 BC

I started researching Mining right away. I sent the Scout due east of Athens, then started curling him around in a clockwise direction. He found a tribal village along the way, and some flood plains, too:

ALCAlex2720BC_01.jpg


I was relieved to see the floodplains, but there's still a heckuvalot of desert tiles over there. I'm hoping one of you folks will take it upon yourself to dotmap this mess for me, 'cuz I'm kind of stumped.

That goody hut just south of Athens popped along with the capital's borders. I got a free tech! Guess which one?

ALCAlex2720BC_02.jpg


Hmmm, yeah, thanks... y'know, I was only three turns away from getting that on my own... Maybe I shoulda researched Agriculture first. Oh well. Three turns is three turns. I started researching Bronze Working a little bit earlier thanks to my "free technology".

My Scout reached the west coast just south of Athens, then turned around (dodging a barb bear along the way) and started another swing back through the south. Along the way, he met the first of the neighbours:

ALCAlex2720BC_03.jpg


Have we seen Mao in one of the ALCs yet? Besides the one where I played as him? I'm asking because as you'll see, I'm not exactly up against the usual suspects.

The Workboat finished in Athens and I started building my 2nd Scout. With the clams being worked, the city increased to 2 pop pretty quickly:

ALCAlex2720BC_04.jpg


A few turns later, I finished researching Bronze Working and changed civics to Slavery. And I have some extremely good news:

ALCAlex2720BC_05.jpg


Copper in the fat cross! Oh happy day, caloo calay! Especially since Alexander's UU requires copper. This is almost as good as having Iron in Rome's fat cross. :goodjob: It doesn't quite make up for the rest of the nearby terrain being so sucky, but it helps.

My southern Scout encountered another foreign leader:

ALCAlex2720BC_06.jpg


You see what I mean? We haven't encountered Saladin too often in the ALCs either. But there he is, stroking his beard thoughtfully beneath that funky oil-funnel hat.

As suggested, I decided to have the second Scout tour the frozen wastes of the North. I don't hold out much hope for goody huts, though:

ALCAlex2720BC_07.jpg


I'm really not sure how that slow-moving Chinese Warrior found his way up north so fast. I'm beginning to think that China is somewhere to my east (the far east?) rather than south or southwest. But my scout did find silver, marble, and crabs up there, all within a potential fat cross. So sooner or later, I'll be founding the Greek city of "Iceberg". (Heh. Iceberg...get it? See, some city names end with "-berg" and... oh, it's not funny if you have to explain it!)

And the third squatter on my continent reared her ugly head:

ALCAlex2720BC_08.jpg


Last time we saw Vicky was in the Hatshepsut game, and the Qin game before that, making this her 3rd appearance in the ALCs as an opposing Civ, IIRC. (Speaking of England, have we seen Elizabeth in an ALC yet? I've got this thing for redheads...) Anyway, since I met up with Vicky's Warrior a good ways southeast of Arabia, I'm betting that's where she's located.

But like I said, not exactly the usual suspects. I seem to rarely encounter these three in my own games, let alone the ALCs. It's usually Huayna, Monty, Cyrus, Hatty, and so on. Although I have now seen Vicky more often in the ALCs than I have on my own. Strange. But not relevant.

The real point is that none of these three are exactly intimidating. If I'm planning on warmongering--which I am--then I could time my wars based upon denying these three access to their UUs. If Mao is indeed just to my east, he would likely be my first target, to ensure he never gets to the medieval era and those nasty Cho-Ko-Nus. Then Saladin, though his Camel Archers don't exactly instill the fear of Allah into anybody. And I gotta get to Vicky way before she gets near Rifling and those troublesome Redcoats.

As my Scout was exploring, he spotted a goody hut in the distance, and of course I went and popped it.

ALCAlex2720BC_09.jpg


Curiouser and curiouser. I popped a hut for a Warrior, on Prince no less. That doesn't happen to me very often since I left Warlord level. The Warrior, alas, was very short lived. I was going to see if I could use him to steal a Worker from Saladin, perphaps, since Scouts can't do that. He ventured into the forest to the east of the hill where he came into the world and was immediately attacked by a lion. He then dragged his bloodied hide to the forested hill one tile south of his former hutty home, so that he could heal in a safe place. Ha! A panther made short work of him a couple of turns later. Good thing I got some gold and a half-decent map from a couple of other huts or I'd be totally cursing my luck with the stupid things in this game.

Anyway, back home, when the Worker was one turn from completing, I whipped him and put the overflow into a barracks. Given how cheap those are for Aggressive Alex, it finished in one turn (which is also all Athens needed to get back to 2 pop). So I sent the Worker to immediately start work on the copper while I researched the Wheel. Once the copper is on-line, I can start churning out Axes and Phalanxes along with Settlers.

ALCAlex2720BC_10.jpg


Yes, I decided to build one more Scout. My northern Scout has had a rough time, encountering wolves one the snowpack twice. It's earned him a Woodsman I promotion, but he's had to stop to heal for about 4 turns twice now. My southern Scout has had a similar experience. As a result, much of the area directly east of Athens has still not been explored. That will be this fellow's job. If I still have some turns before the copper is available, I'll start work on a Settler.

I also chose Mysticism as my next research target. My thinking is to either build Obelisks or Stonehenge for culture and border pops, as well as teching towards the Oracle. Now, if anyone thinks I should research something else, by all means, chime in. As you can see, I stopped the game at this point with no research done so that I can switch if someone has a better suggestion.

Here's a look at the map:

ALCAlex2720BC_11.jpg


Like I said, I'm pretty much cut off from the south for a while by that large swath of desert. I was thinking of putting a city 5 tiles due east of Athens to claim the cow tile and 5 of the flood plains, though I'd get 2 useless peaks and 2 equally useless desert tiles in there as well. The only other two potential city sites I've revealed are ones that I normally wouldn't even think about using until much later in the game: Iceberg, 2S of the crabs, and something in the vicinty of the fish and cows to Athens' west. The wheat and stone to Athens' south are pretty awkwardly located with all those desert tiles around them.

This is gonna be a tough map. The good news is that there is a lot of choice grassland terrain further south. The bad news is it's going to be awhile before I can make use of it. Of course, Saladin and Vicky will probably build some cities there for me. Very nice of them, don't you think? This also will very likely be one of those games where I end up moving the capital.
 
I played a shadow game and was a "little" luckier with the goody huts. I popped 2 (two, deux, zwei) scouts from them, the first one from the hut popped by the cultural border. I was going workboat (no growth)-worker anyway. All this to say one thing: don't beat yourself about researching Mining first. Everything that you change can mean that the goody huts give you something else. My take on this? Better 3 turns off Mining than a map. :) In one game I had 2 maps of mostly ocean tiles, imagine how happy I was... :wallbash:

Advice for the North: don't settle there until you've researched Iron Working. In many games I've found Iron in the tundra, though it is by no means guaranteed. I don't remember if it can pop on ice too, so a Crabs-Silver-Marble-Iron city may be a bit too much to hope for...

Research-wise, I'd say Mysticism is not the priority here. Seeing what tiles you have for a second city, I'd go for Animal Husbandry to reveal horses. Also, since Agriculture gives you a bonus toward AH and lets you farm the corn, why not go Agriculture-AH?

Also, don't delay expanding too much. Another scout is probably ok, but: you're wasting worker turns, when a worker could have built a mine on the copper for fast production and a farm on the corn for fast whip recovery, and your first settler is a while away. As you can see, building Stonehenge will come later anyway, so you'll have time to research it after Agri-AH.

It has been said that the farmed corn is only 5 food, but since you may grow from 1 to 2 and from 2 or 3 to 4, I think it's worth it.
 
Ok, I'm kinda a rookie at dot-mapping(just noticed that my dot-map is dotless :mischief: ), but heres my attempt:

dotmap-ALC8.jpg


I'd settle the red spot first and have it be your super science city or GS farm. Not sure what your plan is at the moment. Are you going all out SE or a CE with a GS farm?

After the red dot, well not sure which to go to next, they are all kinda mediocre(at best). Chances of getting hot pink are pretty slim cause Saladin is right there. I'd go for cyan next I guess. Its got a lot of desert in it, but it also has 5 resources in it.

Crappy map. Usually when I see a huge desert next to me I restart :lol:
 
How can you call teal a crappy city? It has cows and wheat for extra food, it has stone for a nice production and 2 silk for enough commerce. It will be able to work all 5 resources. Rough count nets me in at 13f/10h/10c at size 5. That is all you need to have it going nicely (ok you need calendar for this but even without it you will have enough food and production). About the dotmap Sigmakan, you read my mind. Nice one.

Sisiutil, I do think you are complaining a little too much about the map. The most important part is going to be your start and all cities will have enough food and/or production possibilities. Red is your science center, teal is a good production site, etc... They may not be able to work all tiles later on but then you should be already far enough ahead and have conquered some other capitals to off set the not so good start, but still it has more then enough potential especially when horses show up and iron. Good luck conquering.

BTW I am trying out the SE/CE hybrid and it is working like a charm. Never had cavalry before at 1300 AD. It feels like stealing candy from a little child since the others only have longbowmen :))))
 
sigmakan said:
I'd settle the red spot first and have it be your super science city or GS farm.

I think if you are going to use this location for GP farming, you want to place it one tile east (on the floodplain, rather than on the grassland tile).

Checking the tiles one by one, you get:
desert -> floodplains
grassland hill -> desert hill
grassland -> grassland forrest
river plains -> grassland
river plains -> ?? (looks like grassland)
floodplains -> river grassland (this is the city tile)

rearranging a bit
desert -> desert hill
floodplains -> floodplains
grassland -> grassland
river plains -> river grassland
river plains -> ?? grassland ??
grassland hill -> grassland forrest

For a GP farm, the first three items break even, and the last three look like wins (two extra food and an extra farm)
 
Green city is naff; rest look ok; Saladin will beat you to purple/magenta; blue city looks for good for HE /WP; red city very nice for commerce; yellow and teal good for resources. Its a lot better than first glance might suggest.
 
Banana, rice And Gems Look Nice but too far away (seems like a long shot) if you can start workin on the gems and the silver in da north quickly enough it'd boost your research and maybe you could pick up Codes of law to Settler Spam easier...lol
 
Sisiutil said:
The Warrior, alas, was very short lived. I was going to see if I could use him to steal a Worker from Saladin, perphaps, since Scouts can't do that. He ventured into the forest to the east of the hill where he came into the world and was immediately attacked by a lion. He then dragged his bloodied hide to the forested hill one tile south of his former hutty home, so that he could heal in a safe place. Ha! A panther made short work of him a couple of turns later.

He's like the Neanderthal man version of that friend we all have that attracts all the mosquitos from miles around while nobody else gets a bite. "Is anyone else getting bitten?" "No, Yorg, I'm fine." "Really? Because I'm getting eaten alive out here!" :)
 
Both stone and marble available in the nearby vicinity. Methinks the Sisiutil doth protest too much.

carl corey said:
Advice for the North: don't settle there until you've researched Iron Working.

I mostly agree, though not so much for the iron itself. There's only one place you can put that city to claim all 3 currently visible resources, and you clearly won't have enough food to work silver, marble, and iron, so the only way I see iron influencing the placement of that city is if it turns out to be the only available iron for miles around, which I hope is unlikely.

More importantly, you want to wait since it's more critical to deny the better and nearer sites from the AI. Also, a significant part of "Iceberg's" value is going to come from the happiness benefits of the silver. Silver means +1 and later +2 population in all your other cities, so the more cities you have first, the more useful Iceberg becomes.

Nonetheless, I think you should settle there earlier than you probably think. Long term, that city can work 5 coastal tiles, 1 ocean, silver, marble, and one windmilled hill before it stagnates. With a lighthouse, I believe that's 20 commerce (19 until the windmill) and 6 hammers per turn at population 9 and with a crab to grow back quickly after whipping. That's never going to be a powerhouse for you, but 9 population is all you'll be able to manage for a pretty long time. Factor in the power of the silver, crabs, and marble (easier Great Library!), and that will be a pretty alright city for you.
 
Killroyan said:
How can you call teal a crappy city? It has cows and wheat for extra food, it has stone for a nice production and 2 silk for enough commerce. It will be able to work all 5 resources. Rough count nets me in at 13f/10h/10c at size 5. That is all you need to have it going nicely (ok you need calendar for this but even without it you will have enough food and production). About the dotmap Sigmakan, you read my mind. Nice one.

Sisiutil, I do think you are complaining a little too much about the map. The most important part is going to be your start and all cities will have enough food and/or production possibilities. Red is your science center, teal is a good production site, etc... They may not be able to work all tiles later on but then you should be already far enough ahead and have conquered some other capitals to off set the not so good start, but still it has more then enough potential especially when horses show up and iron. Good luck conquering.

BTW I am trying out the SE/CE hybrid and it is working like a charm. Never had cavalry before at 1300 AD. It feels like stealing candy from a little child since the others only have longbowmen :))))

I totally agree with Killroyan on his points. The teal city can be quite good, and the dotmap Sigmakan drew is exactly what I would have done (but with dots :)).

Sisiutil, I also need you to suck it up about the map. You're not hurting. Look at how awesome Athens is. Teal can be quite good (is stone for the pyramids in the plan?). Pink has Marble for the parthenon. you've got a good start here, imho. Oh, and that iceberg joke didn't work in ALC 3 (I think it was 3) and it doesn't work now. Let it die. ;)
 
If you're going for the pyramids, settle teal first. It can start working on them right away. Just explore the eastern side of its BFC. Its placement can be altered if there's a treat like horses there.
 
Yeah, teal looks pretty good. Definitely one of those mongrel cities, but the stone is particularly juicy. Always nice to have stone. If you want the 'Mids, you definitely want to get down there quick...
 
Fetch said:
Sisiutil, I also need you to suck it up about the map. You're not hurting.

I think you need to play a few games on maps like this before you're comfortable with it. I had a run of about 5 games where the best start I had was about like this one. After totally dominating in all of them, I realized that map quality can be very deceptive.

If you have copper and 3 or 4 city sites that can grow to about size 6 before struggling, you're OK. In this game, I think you're better than OK. There are very few map problems that a few axemen can't solve.
 
Lance of Llanwy said:
Always nice to have stone. If you want the 'Mids, you definitely want to get down there quick...

I second (third?) the notion of going after the stone first (if the general plan is building the Pyramids instead of capturing them). Even if you're not going for the Pyramids right away, it follows the maxim of expanding towards your enemies. Good idea to build that other scout to find out about east of Red City. It will be nice to know about east of Cyan as well. You could have a nice flying wing of cities to seal off the south from the east, if that cow is paired with another nice resource or two.
 
VoiceOfUnreason said:
I think if you are going to use this location for GP farming, you want to place it one tile east (on the floodplain, rather than on the grassland tile).

I agree in moving it one east, but only if there is a way to chain irrigate to those grasslands in the east. From what we can see in the map right now, I dont think there is a way to chain irrigate to those grasslnda tiles. They are blocked off from the river by mountains/desert/hills.
 
Going for stone built pyramid means settling city, building quarry, making roads. Teal looks to have pretty naff production so probably looking at building pyramids in athens. Sounds a lot of turns.
Alternatively go oracle / metal-casting /forge while beelining CoL. Makes use of philosphical trait. You don't get bonus for forge like you do with industrious so that's a problem.
Alternatively forget pyramids, go for CS slingshot while building some axes/phalanxes for early war.
No obviously right solution.
 
pigswill said:
Teal looks to have pretty naff production

At size 1, you'll work the plains cows for a total in the city of +3 food and 4 hammers per turn. At size 2 you'll add in the stone for +2 food, 8 hammers. At size 3 you'll work the wheat for +4 food, 9 hammers. At size 4 you'll work the hill (looks like grasslands to me) for +3 food, 12 hammers and at least one forest chopped. I don't think that seems like bad production. You're averaging 3 hammers per tile, which is about as good as it gets. Beyond size 4 you can work the silks for 2 hammers if you haven't chopped down the forests or 1 if you have.

Border expansion is an issue. You'll need to build an obelisk before any of this can happen, but I don't see production as an obstacle.
 
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