ALC Game #8 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Alexander

[PeteJ]

A SE with Representation (from the Pyramids) will not be in the same state as an alternative SE that did not build the Pyramids and it will not be run in the same manner. So your simplistic comparison assuming the only difference was the 3 extra beakers/ specialist from Representation is manifestly false.

Building the Pyramids is a major early game gambit that distorts the economy for many turns. When the Pyramids are completed in about 1000 BC the player has stunted economy with 2 cities. He then spends many turns trying to expand and actually run some specialists to make use of Representation. An alternative SE based around a Super Science city could have it's academy by 1000 BC and 4 cities all growing and ready for an axe rush or whatever makes sense in that game... It will be well ahead of the Pyramid economy at that stage.

Running Representation is not entirely benificial even in a SE, especially in the early game. Hereditary Rule is a very good civic for a SE allowing bigger cities where plenty of food is available. HR is suited to using slavery and raising and running a big army that goes hand in hand with early conquests... but be careful to not overexpand and be sure that Markets and Courthouses are available soon to cut costs. Then at say 500 AD I'd expect the SE without the Pyramids to have a bigger empire and have better buildings than either a CE or SE with Pyramids.

One great weakness I have observed is the tendency to use specialists plus Representation as the only source of beakers, and that restricts the use of Slavery to whip enough buildings. I think Sisiutil demonstrated this behaviour in ALC #7. He would have done much better in the longer term if he had taken action early to build key infrastructure such as markets, grocers and banks in certain well chosen cities. That would allow the Science slider to be run at 100% for more turns than at 0%. Instead, acting on advice, he ran scientists with Representation for too long thereby stunting growth of the economy. A large part of the growth in output of gold and research in a SE comes from the multipliers buildings give and so the sooner they're build the quicker they provide the benefits to the economy.

Finally a major part of the research done by a SE is by considerate use of GP and a Philosophical leader can make them just as fast with or without Represenatation. It is totally false to make the trivial assumption that difference in tech rates between a SE with Represenatation and one without is a factor of 2. It is nowhere near as much once you take into account the real differences in how those economies are run.

UncleJJ makes a very good point here. Concentrating on the pyramids and nothing else for the first part of the game definitely cripples your economy, military production, and expansion for the first part of the game. Every time I've tried to set up a SE via the pyramids, I've found myself struggling afterwards to get my economy up and running. It would be an interesting experiment to see how well it runs without Representation. Of course if you have Stone nearby(in your capital's fat +), then you would be stupid not to go for the pyramids. And if your neighbor happens to build them, then by all means take them from your neighbor(This would actually be ideal and probably far superior).

Long story short, this could be just the challenge that you are looking for and I would like to see it in action.

 

[NaZdReG]

well gotta weigh in again. if you aren't going for the pyramids then by definition you're going to be running a hybrid econ. yeah you could switch entirely over to specialist if a nearby neighbor happens to have the pyramids but it would be a wise move to cottage up regardless and work some of them.

its very quick to lay down a few farms, and just as easy to replace them with more cottages if you need. since most cities stay below 8 pop until midgame you have plenty of flexability and can lay down both types of improvements in each fat cross.
(yeah thats a lot of micro, but you have enough skill sisuitil to manage that)

without representation you're going to NEED a library, go ahead and run the scientists instead of working production tiles if you feel like your military and infrastructure are building up at an acceptable pace. but the sooner you get those cottages running the sooner they'll outpace the 3 beakers from each specialist..

even still you'll want 1 gp farm to maximize the philo trait. theres another thread on here about gp generation from single or multiple cities, proving that running a single gp farm is more efficient in the long run and still makes good use of the philo trait. definately try to get the great library up and running in that location so you can run 4 scientists then more when you get the university then oxeford etc.

yeah its probably all been said, but I dont mind saying it again

good luck w/ the game.. definately looking forward to seing how it turns out

NaZ

 

[Eqqman]

even still you'll want 1 gp farm to maximize the philo trait. theres another thread on here about gp generation from single or multiple cities, proving that running a single gp farm is more efficient in the long run and still makes good use of the philo trait. definately try to get the great library up and running in that location so you can run 4 scientists then more when you get the university then oxeford etc.

I remember reading that thread and I should probably give it another check over. But it's flat-out impossible for a single city to be the best idea in every case. If you can run equal numbers of specialists in two cities then it's not hard to easily surpass what you can do with one. Things start to become less efficient only in the really long-term or if you try to to have several cities making GPP. You can throw things off a little if you get National Epic in your best city. Or you could use it to supplement your second best city which would mean that two cities is doing better than one great one with National Epic.

 

[kl0pper]

you might be able to rob the pyramids from another civ

 

[pigswill]

With continents there's an even chance that pyramids will not be easily accessible if built by another civ and even on the same continent they may not be easily to invade so in that sense the odds are not good for early pyramid steal as a strategy.

 

[cabert]

i don't like the "out of the box" strategy you build without a game at hand.

My feeling is you should try a last prince game in a way you never did.

A philosophical leader lends himself well to GP production.
GP have multiple use.
Why not try a warmonger's game where the GP help you out of the economic blackhole = pop some good trading techs?

My proposal is to ignore building wonders = capture them if the map tells you so (= not montezuma and kublai khan for neighbours). Capturing oracle is no use? well, you get those Great Prophets fast when you're philosophical.

 

[Killroyan]

I wanted to suggest the same as Cabert for a nice twist. Get two GP farms going and pop almost all GP for techs to see if you can get a huge tech lead. I tried this as Frederick and must say I didn't do that bad but I could have done a lot better.

Other twist is to merge every GP to 1 or 2 cities to see what that does to an economy/research rate.

 

[NaZdReG]

Eggman,

if I find the thread I'll post a link. was mathmatical proof that another city will NEVER generate a GP if the city with national epic is producing more than a certain amount of GPP and the other city is producing within a certain percentage of that number. (never catches up to the target # as it keeps going up) best case scenario if you are running a GP farm you'll only ever see 1-3 great ppl from the other cities.

edit: found linky

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142704

its yucky beancounter math but does prove what I was suggesting. so again I'd go with a hybrid econ.. cottage up where you can but make 1 city a GP farm for this purpose.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well the problem with popping is that it takes you on a particular research path, settling for super specialists gives you much more flexibility. However, the Early lead isn't a bad idea, but especially early on, they are suboptimal.

 

[pigswill]

Another thought: this being your last ALC at Prince why not go for fastest win (?before 1800). No restrictions: play cottage or specialist; no wonders, every wonder etc. Just win.

 

[pax]

Another thought: this being your last ALC at Prince why not go for fastest win (?before 1800). No restrictions: play cottage or specialist; no wonders, every wonder etc. Just win.

This idea I like ('cause I know you're all on the edge of your seats, waiting to hear what I do or do not like )! It's time for the Greeks to dethrone the Egyptians from the top of the Sisiutil Hall of Fame. Conquer the world by the 19th century!

Of course, in discussing this, we virtually guarantee a small island start with neither bronze nor iron...

 

[Sisiutil]

Another thought: this being your last ALC at Prince why not go for fastest win (?before 1800). No restrictions: play cottage or specialist; no wonders, every wonder etc. Just win.

I rather like this idea too. If I've mastered Prince and I'm playing with the Aggressive advantage to supplement my warmongering, I should, theoretically, be able to achieve that which I never have achieved before. In addition, this is in keeping with Cabert's point about not marrying yourself to a strategy before you get into the game and see how the land lies (literally and figuratively).

Nevertheless, the pre-game thread is useful, as always, for suggesting a variety of strategies to optimize the leader's characteristics. And conversely, it's also helpful to hear about routes that would be counter-productive, or that the leader would make challenging.

 

[Eqqman]

Eggman,

if I find the thread I'll post a link. was mathmatical proof that another city will NEVER generate a GP if the city with national epic is producing more than a certain amount of GPP and the other city is producing within a certain percentage of that number. (never catches up to the target # as it keeps going up) best case scenario if you are running a GP farm you'll only ever see 1-3 great ppl from the other cities.

edit: found linky

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142704

its yucky beancounter math but does prove what I was suggesting. so again I'd go with a hybrid econ.. cottage up where you can but make 1 city a GP farm for this purpose.

[Emphasis added by me]

This is also what I was getting at- I don't refute anything written there, but it's doing people a disservice if they come away reading that thread thinking 'I should always have just one Great Person farm.' There are myraid scenarios you can concoct where two cities are better than one. Take for example two cities whose maximum possible GPP output from all sources is identical- running both in parallel is clearly giving you more and faster Great Persons than shutting down one of them. No math required to see that much. People often just make the National Epic + Globe Theater GPP megacity, so I think in this case, the author of that thread wanted to show there is no value in allowing other cities to make GPP if you can help it. But in any other situation where your best city isn't that 'mega' (54 GPP/turn or less, perhaps) there is plenty of advantage to be gained by spreading around your production. You just have to be aware of the factors that influence your throughput instead of just locking 'one big city' into your head.

 

[Betafor]

Another thought: this being your last ALC at Prince why not go for fastest win (?before 1800). No restrictions: play cottage or specialist; no wonders, every wonder etc. Just win.

This gets my vote!

 

[Sisiutil]

People often just make the National Epic + Globe Theater GPP megacity, so I think in this case, the author of that thread wanted to show there is no value in allowing other cities to make GPP if you can help it. But in any other situation where your best city isn't that 'mega' (54 GPP/turn or less, perhaps) there is plenty of advantage to be gained by spreading around your production. You just have to be aware of the factors that influence your throughput instead of just locking 'one big city' into your head.

To take this in another direction, this pairing of NE and GT is something I don't much understand and only do if I'm aiming for a cultural win. Obviously, that city is going to churn out Great Artists. In a non-cultural game, I want Great Scientists, so the wonder combination is Great Library + National Epic + Oxford University.

In fact, in a non-cultural game, I sometimes never build the Globe Theatre. I know it has benefits for whipping/drafting, but by the time I have it available, I'm usually productive enough to not have to rely on the whip anymore.

Now if there's something I'm missing about this wonder combination, I eagerly await enlightenment.

 

[Eqqman]

To take this in another direction, this pairing of NE and GT is something I don't much understand and only do if I'm aiming for a cultural win. Obviously, that city is going to churn out Great Artists.

The idea is you're trying to have every available tile working food to support specialists. With the amount of specialists you can run the chance of getting a GA goes down to 10% or less. Even though you can get the equivalent happiness late-game from other methods, Globe Theater is about the only way you can let this city have unlimited growth early on, and it's also permanent since you don't have to rely on civics or the culture slider to keep the happiness from crashing later. I think unit costs make GT less useful in a slavery heavy city but it certainly helps for drafting though since you can easy get a situation where you recover 1 pop every turn.

 

[pigswill]

Also if you were running a GP Farm seperate from your science city you could combine GT+NE; GS you combine in superscience city which still runs Glib and oxford; though if cottaging superscience you don't really need Glib if you're running academy, bureaucracy and science buildings so you could put Glib in GP Farm.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Actually, the GLib is where you have your GP farm, those 2 Scientists are far more important for GPP than flasks.

The issue that if you are running scientists, that site will give both Flasks and GPP, so Oxford makes sense there.... and if you are Not running Caste, you will rarely need Globe for your GP farm... so NE/Oxford can be merged.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

For the fastest win possible, I think you'd need to kick someone's teeth in fast. Going for the Pyramids only ties up one of your cities, the other two to four that you get from the initial land grab can fire out military units (1 Phalanx, Rest Axeman, Maybe Archers when needed to defend cities, maybe a chariot to throw into a pillage stack...)

Basically, Get Masonry to build the Pyramids (Specialist Economy will be better in the long run). Next, get Bronze working for Axes and Phalanxes, then get your worker techs for resources. Don't waste time with early religions, but beeline for CoL (Courthouses to reduce upkeep), then Construction (Cats will be needed soon enough). I vote balls to the wall agression, no quarter asked or given. Grind the enemies into the dust as fast as you can. Finish your time on Prince with an exclamation point!

 

[Martinus]

Are you going to play with vanilla or with Warlords? If with Warlords, there is an interesting strategy (I haven't tested it yet, but it looks great on paper) of getting Pyramids, that imo is faster (and more beneficial for the general growth of your empire) than either of the Masonry/Pyramids or the Oracle/MC/Pyramids gambits. I will repost my post from another thread:

Instead of beelining for Oracle and MC, go the usual Pyramid-building route (i.e. get Bronze Working and Masonry), but instead of building Pyramids, build Great Wall in your capital. It is significiantly cheaper (I think 250 hammers vs. 450 of Pyramids - using Marathon speed here) and gives you 2 Engineer points (with Philosophical, this becomes 4). This means that in 25 turns after building the Great Wall, you will get a GE, with whom you then complete the Pyramids (which I believe is not slower, and can even be faster than you would build the Pyramids in the first place even if you chopped extensively), preferrably in the same city that built the Great Wall, so you have a guaranteed GE as your second, and possibly third Great Person - which you can use to build the Great Library and then Parthenon or Hanging Gardens (for even more GE goodness).

Not only is the Great Wall a rather useful wonder (especially on bigger maps or with Raging Barbs) but you free up 200 hammers, get essentially 2 wonders for a price of one, and have much more flexibility with starting techs (both Great Wall and Pyramids require only Masonry to build, so you don't need to dip into the Priesthood path early to secure the Oracle for the MC/P strategy).