Alexander the Great vs. China

[MacHong]

The Chinese old militarist think the foodstuffs is the most important thing when the two equal empire battle with each other, so the word says "The have to prepare enough before you move your troops", Alexander can not have enough support when the troops cross over the India or the desert. The time is the weakness of Alexander, if he can not conquer China in a short time, he will lose the war. China has been ruled by the Mongolia about 100 years. He was conquered by the Keshik, the blitz. The Keshik is unstoppable. Maybe only the ocean can stop them, that is why the Japenese survived.

the wars:
China > Huns
China > Turkic
China < Mongolia
China <= Japan
China < England
China < France
China <= America
China <= Russion
China > India

The Chinese Empire died in his own hand, every time in the history, the civil wars, the cruel domination, people dies, if some violence invade at the same time, the empire dies, after a long time, a new empire rises and the after rulers enjoys the peace and what he will do is to consider how to rule his people and make the people tractable, so the they just prevent the development of the new technology which may threaten their domination. Then the empire fall, and the same thing happen until a new empire replaced hin.

 

[BananaLee]

This topic has been discussed to death already. Let it die....

 

[civ_king]

The dead should stay dead

 

[Elfarcher]

So hilarious thread. I cost nearly 4 hours to read all the posts.

 

[Flying Pig]

Where's a mod to close this already?

 

[Masada]

I personally liked my slightly OT rantings best.

 

[vogtmurr]

Of course you would like yours best.

I tried to bow out gracefully but it still captures the odd inquisitive mind. So whaddya guys think ? Are cho ko nus still a 6/1 with 1-2 first strikes ?

 

[Masada]

Yours were frankly rubbish!

 

[vogtmurr]

Oh really ? all 50 pages of them - why is that ? I wasn't ridiculing yours just making a joke btw.

 

[Masada]

I was joking as well? I still believe that cho ko nus can out-range longbows

 

[civ_king]

I was joking as well? I still believe that cho ko nus can out-range longbows

or at least own them by shear numbers of bolts
If you can train 1 million peasants to use cho ko nus in 2 weeks you win, BTW it take a half hour to make a cho ko nu that's 16 a day per person at least so that's 16x14=224 for 2 weeks so 4465 people making em. I don't think Alexander's army could survive 10,000,000 bolts in 15 seconds... meaning chinese win

 

[vogtmurr]

I wasn't going to be baited, but I'm not the one who's brought it up, so in the spirit of having fun...

... I still believe that cho ko nus can out-range longbows

keep sticking to that vision, (though I don't think you honestly believe it). It's almost as myopic as believing someone wouldn't try to explore the Indian continent by sea, because they don't know what lies past the edge of the map, according to someone named Menzies .

The Seleucid dynasty controlled a developed network of trade with India which had previously existed under the influence of the Persian Achaemenid dynasty,

Roman_trade_with_India
(The same article speaks in length of the hazards to shipping, though it obviously didn't stop them. The remains of hundreds of Roman anchors have been found along these shores).

or at least own them by shear numbers of bolts
If you can train 1 million peasants to use cho ko nus in 2 weeks you win, BTW it take a half hour to make a cho ko nu that's 16 a day per person at least so that's 16x14=224 for 2 weeks so 4465 people making em. I don't think Alexander's army could survive 10,000,000 bolts in 15 seconds... meaning chinese win

Ignoring the time and effort to acquire the wood and strings and bolts, I'm not sure these mass produced toys are going to last any longer than the similarly manufactured toys that used to appear under my kids' Christmas tree, or work any better against armoured men accustomed to sacking well defended cities. Trying to maintain that many in the field while no one tills the fields will make Alexander's logistical challenges seem like a visit to the shopping market.

Careful, if you want to play the numbers game. I might just mention that after Alexander consolidates his empire he's bringing hand-picked veterans, not peasant levies, of the Meditteranean basin and Middle east, which is larger than the total population of China at the time, picking up a few nomadic allies along the way, against the not so popular state of Qin.

Actually, I found our last assessment of the crossbows with Cypher_101 pretty reasonable. There were a lot of powerful ones as well. Anyway, I've got the much more modest Alexandrian army ready. Anybody up for the challenge ?

 

[civ_king]

I wasn't going to be baited, but I'm not the one who's brought it up, so in the spirit of having fun...



keep sticking to that vision, (though I don't think you honestly believe it). It's almost as myopic as believing someone wouldn't try to explore the Indian continent by sea, because they don't know what lies past the edge of the map, according to someone named Menzies . Roman_trade_with_India
(The same article speaks in length of the hazards to shipping, though it obviously didn't stop them. The remains of hundreds of Roman anchors have been found along these shores).



Ignoring the time and effort to acquire the wood and strings and bolts, I'm not sure these mass produced toys are going to last any longer than the similarly manufactured toys that used to appear under my kids' Christmas tree, or work any better against armoured men accustomed to sacking well defended cities. Trying to maintain that many in the field while no one tills the fields will make Alexander's logistical challenges seem like a visit to the shopping market.

Careful, if you want to play the numbers game. I might just mention that after Alexander consolidates his empire he's bringing hand-picked veterans, not peasant levies, of the Meditteranean basin and Middle east, which is larger than the total population of China at the time, picking up a few nomadic allies along the way, against the not so popular state of Qin.

Actually, I found our last assessment of the crossbows with Cypher_101 pretty reasonable. There were a lot of powerful ones as well. Anyway, I've got the much more modest Alexandrian army ready. Anybody up for the challenge ?

? well BTW in the warring states period you saw battle with 1,000,000 men involved, I think you can safely say that the Chinese kingdoms would band to gather to kill the gringos... the warring states period lasted 250 years...

 

[Masada]

It's almost as myopic as believing someone wouldn't try to explore the Indian continent by sea, because they don't know what lies past the edge of the map, according to someone named Menzies .

If you bothered to re-read what I posted you will see two things: that I never denied that it was possible to reach India and that I categorically denied that it was possible to reach China through the Malacca Strait. I subsequently qualified my first statement with the following properties: that it would have been difficult in the extreme to round Coromandel Coast, that moving any army across this route was impossible and that any subsequent journey through Malacca and towards China was a pipe-dream. I didn't bother to qualify my second statement, simply because if the first was so outrageous the second subsequent statement wasn't going to be any more realistic.

(The same article speaks in length of the hazards to shipping, though it obviously didn't stop them. The remains of hundreds of Roman anchors have been found along these shores).

Because picking a period a few centuries in advance isn't intellectually dishonest? But then any cursory perusal of my earlier posts will show that I've already referenced the Periplus previously and that I've acknowledged the Persian contribution to trade. However, a cursory reading of the texts would show that the distribution of wrecks is overwhelmingly confined to the westward facing side of India. A quick examination of the Periplus would tell you that trade between India and China occurred not by sea but overland cutting through Bactria. It would also tell you that the Greeks were not sure if there was a sea route to China and that the Golden Khersonese marked the furthest spot East that they were aware of. The location of the Golden Khersonese is still subject to debate but is generally thought to be Malaysia or the eastern side of the Bay of Bengal; they did not seem aware of Malacca at all and maintained that that the goods they acquired via the Golden Khersonese including aromatics and spices were from there, which is manifestly not the case they were from further into the Malayan Archipelago. Of course this is all superfluous, because the Persians never reached anywhere near that far east, and the Periplus was written centuries after the death of Alexander.

(The same article speaks in length of the hazards to shipping, though it obviously didn't stop them. The remains of hundreds of Roman anchors have been found along these shores).

It did actually. The distribution of wrecks and anchors shows that they did advance in knowledge but couldn't manage to translate that into consolidation of trade routes.

Anyway, I've got the much more modest Alexandrian army ready. Anybody up for the challenge ?

I'm taking the Indian Ocean, Malacca Strait and the South China Sea.

 

[vogtmurr]

? well BTW in the warring states period you saw battle with 1,000,000 men involved, I think you can safely say that the Chinese kingdoms would band to gather to kill the gringos... the warring states period lasted 250 years...

Yes, Herodotus also claimed the Persians invaded Greece with 1,000,000 men and 1200 ships. If indeed the Chinese states fielded armies this big, it was their combined might in the latter battles, after the smaller states had been absorbed. But Qin doesn't need this much to make it a more believable and evenly contested scenario.

 

[vogtmurr]

....I'm taking the Indian Ocean, Malacca Strait and the South China Sea.

You can, but Alexander's army isn't; a small naval expedition, perhaps. I read your stuff, I don't disagree the compelling evidence against a big fleet trying to negotiate the coastline to China - we were really not arguing the same scenarios.

 

[Masada]

You can, but Alexander's army isn't; a small naval expedition, perhaps. I read your stuff, I don't disagree the compelling evidence against a big fleet trying to negotiate the coastline to China - we were really not arguing the same scenarios.

I doubt even a small naval expedition could manage it. The growth of trade and the pioneering of the route had nothing to do with any external groups, it was purely the work of Malay traders and seaman.

 

[civ_king]

Yes, Herodotus also claimed the Persians invaded Greece with 1,000,000 men and 1200 ships. If indeed the Chinese states fielded armies this big, it was their combined might in the latter battles, after the smaller states had been absorbed. But Qin doesn't need this much to make it a more believable and evenly contested scenario.

yes I'm talking about me total, still how would Alexander be able to transport such a large army, Gobi Desert, Jungle, or Ocean, pick your poison mate

Gobi Desert; Metal Armor+120 F* temps= lethal
Jungle; disease, animals...
Ocean; obliterated ships...

 

[vogtmurr]

my poison ? I'll have a gin, lime, and tonic on the rocks.

Alex can either skirt the Tarim Basin or take the Sinkiang route, which are probably hotter than the Gobi, which is further north. Yes armour would get pretty uncomfortable, maybe they would have silk shirts underneath, or quilted linen - but they must have learned something when they marched back and forth across the plateau of Iran.

 

[Flying Pig]

I assume they wouldn't march in armour, since in those days they used a baggage train and it's quite hard to be ambushed by an ancient army in the desert