Alexander's Conquests development thread

[Keroro]

A12, D4, M3, -3 HP, Bombard 12-1-4. Alexander has a mighty bombard attack, but is very vulnerable if caught alone.

A8, D3, M3, -4 HP. The Royal Companions are similar to Alexander, but not quite so deadly.

A9, D7, M1, +2 HP. The Phalangites are powerful on attack and defence, and are the only units that can load into a Phalanx army.

A9, D4, M2, +2 HP, Blitz. The Hypaspists are the elite medium infantry of Macedonia.

A8, D3, M3, +2 HP. Companion Cavalry is one of the deadliest forces on the battlefield.

A7, D4, M3, +1 HP, Stealth attack. Thessalian Cavalry are a match for the Companions.

A4, D3, M2, Bombard 4-1-1, ignore hills/forest move costs. Peltasts are skirmishers, they are cheap to raise and cost no support.

A7, D4, M2, Radar, ignores all movement costs except mountains and jungles. Agrianians are very versatile troops from Thrace.

A6, D4, M2, -1 HP, Bombard 6-0-1, Radar, Zone of Control, All terrain as roads. Prodomoi are superb scouts from Thrace.

A10, D5, M2, +2 HP, Blitz. Successors replace Hypaspists late in the game as the elite medium infantry

A11, D8, M1, +6 HP. Argyaspides can only be obtained by upgrading a phalanx army.

A0, D0, M1, -4 HP, bombard 7-2-3. Ballista

These units are to be supplemented by others as Alexander gains different provinces. Greece, Egypt, Persia, India and Italy will allow certain units to be raised - e.g. Egyptian Phalangites can be raised with a supply of the Egyptian resource, found only in Egypt. Mercenaries are also available from certain regions.

Anyone spot any problems with the stats as they are?

 

[Virote_Considon]

I have a question: Why does the Ballista have 0 Attack and Defense, and -4 H.P.?

 

[Keroro]

To stop them from being captured. In fact I think that's a mistype, I think it's Attack 1 and Defence 1, rather than 0. I never really liked the way that artillery could be captured and used in Civ3, and I'm getting rid of that. The artillery will have a great bombard attack, but very weak if attacked on its own. There will also be certain units that will be able to sneak attack and take it out before it gets a chance to fire - and you can only sneak attack units with HPs.

 

[Keroro]

By way of comparison to the above Macedonian units, here are the stats and approximate shield costs for some of the basic unflavoured units in the game.

20 Shields - Garrison - immobile A0, D4, M0, no support costs.
40 Shields - Light Infantry - A5, D4, M2, Bombard 5-1-2.
70 Shields - Heavy Infantry - A7, D6, M1, +3 HPs.
40 Shields - Catapult - A0, D1, M1, -4 HPs, Bombard 6-2-2.
30 Shields - Cavalry - A4, D2, M3, -1 HP, Stealth Attack, Zone of Control.
40 Shields - Chariot - A6, D2, M2.
20 Shields - Skirmisher - A4, D2, M2, -1 HP, Ignore hills and forests, no support costs.
100 Shields - Elephant - A11, D5, M1, +3 HPs, Treat all terrain as road.

These are the basic units. Most of the races in the game get slightly different types of units - so the Romans get Triarii (A7, D7, M1, +4 HPs) instead of heavy infantry, and the Greeks and Macedonians can use Greek Cavalry (A5, D3, M3, with Stealth attack and zone of control) instead of the normal Cavalry.

One of the problems I have is what to do with the archers. ATM I have them in the game as good defenders (e.g. Greek Toxotis is A2, D5, M1 and Bombard 5-1-1), but that doesn't seem quite right to me. Plus it seems to duplicate the function of the garrisons. Does anyone know what archers were generally used for circa 330 BCE? Were they mainly used in sieges, or in defence, or as a skirmishing screen? One possibility I have is of giving them the collatoral damage flag to simulate their effect in sieges (thanks to Captain Beaver for that idea). Any ideas?

 

[Virote_Considon]

Both for defense (Firing from high walls, or a hilltop) and siege (firing UP the walls, often with fire on the end of the arrow )

 

[Stazro]

Both for defense (Firing from high walls, or a hilltop) and siege (firing UP the walls, often with fire on the end of the arrow )

And in the field for both soften up enemy attack and bringing the enemy in disorder for the own attack

One of the problems I have is what to do with the archers. ATM I have them in the game as good defenders (e.g. Greek Toxotis is A2, D5, M1 and Bombard 5-1-1), but that doesn't seem quite right to me. Plus it seems to duplicate the function of the garrisons. Does anyone know what archers were generally used for circa 330 BCE? Were they mainly used in sieges, or in defence, or as a skirmishing screen? One possibility I have is of giving them the collatoral damage flag to simulate their effect in sieges (thanks to Captain Beaver for that idea). Any ideas?

I don't think collateral damage fits for the archers, IMO it is something more catapult-like.
You could make them a multi-purpose-unit similar to the light infantry but better at bombard and weaker in close-up-combat.

 

[Keroro]

Cheers for the help, so archers would be somewhere between the infantry and artillery - I guess that makes sense.

30 Shields - Archer - A3, D3, M1, -1 HP, Bombard 6-1-4.

I might take the bombard away from the infantry in that case - they only had it in the first place so that there would be a unit that could cause damage to city defenders without having to engage them directly, and now that would be done by the archers. Plus they have a chance of retreating anyway. The artillery would need a bit of a boost.
Maybe:

40 Shields - Light Infantry - A6, D4, M2.
40 Shields - Catapult - A0, D1, M1, -4 HPs, Bombard 8-2-2.
50 Shields - Ballista - A0, D1, M1, -4 HP, bombard 9-2-3.

How does that sound?

 

[Virote_Considon]

How about giving the catapult lower strength (or, "accuracy") than the Ballista, but collateral damage and a higher RoF (Because although it's more innacurate, it is more "powerful" in the long run)?

 

[Keroro]

How about giving the catapult lower strength (or, "accuracy") than the Ballista, but collateral damage and a higher RoF (Because although it's more innacurate, it is more "powerful" in the long run)?

Ahh, a discussion that I remember from the RFRE thread. In this scenario I am using the Ballista simply as an upgraded form of catapult. The two terms are often confused, but at the time of Alexander the ballista (first developed in Greece) worked on similar principles to the catapult but had more tension and therefore more power. It was in Roman times that you began to see the distinction between a ballista (as field artillery) and a catapult (as siege artillery). The suggestion about collatoral damage is good though, might well do that. I think that Captain Beaver is trialling something like that ATM in RFRE, I may wait and see how his experiment goes.

EDIT - Now I come to think about it, the civilopedia pic I have for the ballista may be misleading. I will look for a better one.

 

[Keroro]

I started an early alpha test and found that I was still having a few problems with the ghost resource bug. I'm going to have to reduce the amount of strategic resources and replace it with bonus resources. Very annoying.

One of the knock on effects of this is that I am re-thinking the role of Temples to the Greeks Gods. There are some temples with effects that I am happy with (Hephaestus increases production 25% but requires copper in the radius for example), but I'm not sure what effect some of the others should have.

Does anyone have an idea what the temples of Artemis, Demeter, Athena, Hera or Hestia could do? I really wanted to include temples of all the Gods, but I guess I could drop a few. (Though I would risk being struck down.) The problem is that I was originally going to link the temples to certain resources, (like fruit for Demeter and game for Artemis) but now I have to lose some of the resources and can't do this. Any ideas?

 

[Virote_Considon]

Are these temples all going to be normal city improvements, or will some be small wonders?

 

[Keroro]

I was intending for them to mainly be improvements, but I'd want to limit the numbers of each type by having them require certain resources in the Radius. Poseiden's temples will need to be on the coast, most of them will require the Greeks resource and several will require marble. I guess that making some of them Small Wonders might be a good idea too.

Having thought about it I think that I might make the Temple of Athena a Great Wonder and pre-place it in Athens.

The problem is that I don't just want to make all the temples produce a happy face - that could get a bit boring in gameplay. What are you doing with temples in your scenario?

 

[Virote_Considon]

Ordinary temples: Just generic temples
Temples to specific gods: Usually SW's or GW's. There will probably be more than one of some, though, so that different tech-groups can have them.

 

[Blue Monkey]

You might look into the tendancies of various of the Oracular Shrines, and have some grant culture, resistance to propaganda, trade bonuses, etc. depending on what sort of influence they had historically.

 

[Gaias]

Is there any specific units that you would like to see from Rome Total War (and mods) created for this mod Keroro? I am getting sick of looking and tweaking the Roman units I need to start on another civilisation...

This mod shows some promise. Looking forward to what you reveal next for it.

 

[Keroro]

Wow, what an offer. Thanks. I'll have to reinstall RTW to take a look at the options, but the Triarii would be pretty useful for Rome. I have been having some trouble in finding enough cavalry units, so if you're up for converting the Companions or other Macedonian cavalry units then that would be real useful.

Installing RTW now...

 

[Gaias]

Wow, what an offer. Thanks. I'll have to reinstall RTW to take a look at the options, but the Triarii would be pretty useful for Rome. I have been having some trouble in finding enough cavalry units, so if you're up for converting the Companions or other Macedonian cavalry units then that would be real useful.

Installing RTW now...

You really do want me to get that Triarii finished dont you?

P.S: Be sure to check out the Extended Greek Mod while your at it. It has alot of good units that can be converted for you mod.

 

[Keroro]

@ Gaias - Wouldn't you know it - my CD of RTW has packed up. While I wait to get a new one, I will just drool over the Extended Greek and RTR mods. I did notice that they had a very good Hypaspist in the Extended Greek mod; it would make a very versatile Greek warrior if you could get the time to convert that. Also the Peltasts that I'm using are a pretty old C'n'P unit that could do with a replacement. Apart from that I'll probably find a place for most any conversion you choose to make. Especially cavalry.

I've had a really good look through various internet resources, and I came up with a bunch of possibilities for Temples to the Greek Gods. Unfortunately I came up with more possibilities than I will be able to implement. I have possible effects for 13 Greek temples, 9 Roman temples, 8 Egyptian temples, 4 Persian temples and a couple of Punic / Carthaginian temples. I will post the ideas tomorrow and ask you guys (anyone who's out there) to help me get rid of the worst ideas.

 

[Gaias]

Well that sucks about your RTW discs, as the RTR mod is especially good. It was the reason I picked up RTW in the first place, as I usually do not like RTS games. What I am really waiting for is the Europa Barbarorum mod that should be coming out soon.

Well any units that I would have made are on hold right now, as I did something not so smart before I made these conversions. I wrongly assumed that I could use the RTR teams hard work before I had formally contacted them for their permission. So before I get started on any units from the RTR mod and others, I will need to wait unit they give me confirmation to be allowed to proceed.

 

[Keroro]

@ Gaias - I see from one of your other threads that you now have permission from the RTR team to convert more stuff. We can all feel very happy about that. If you need me to get in touch with the Extended Greek mod guys to get the same permission then let me know.

OK, long list of temple ideas, criticism / comments more than welcome.

Greeks
Zeus-Amon, Requires Marble and gold, benefits: 2 Happy faces
Hera, Requires Marble, benefits: Less corruption
Ares, Requires Stone and Copper, benefits: Less WW, prop shield, stealth attack shield?
Athena, Pre placed GW (Athens), benefits: 50% Research and auto produce Infantry
Demeter, Requires Greeks in radius, benefits: Acts as cheaper granary/auto produce slave?
Artemis, Pre placed GW (Ephesus), benefits: Double population increase (like Longevity) but goes obsolete quite early
Hermes, No requirement, benefits: 50% Commerce
Poseidon / Neptune, Requires Marble and a pharos, coastal installation, benefits: Extra commerce from water tiles
Apollo, Requires Marble, benefits: Happy face or 50% research?
Dionysus / Bacchus, Requires Wine in Radius, benefits: 2 Happy faces, but produces waste
Aphrodite, Requires Greeks in radius, benefits: 2 Happy faces
Hephaestus, Requires Copper in radius, benefits: 25% Production
Hades, Requires Iron in radius, benefits: 25% Production or 50% commerce or less WW? But produces waste.
Heracles, Requires Greeks in radius, benefits: Defence bonus?
Delphi Oracle, Pre placed GW (Delphi), benefits: Shrine in every city (1 Happy face) and 50% commerce
Dodona Oracle, Pre placed GW (Dodona), benefits: Double effect of shrine?
Cretan Oracle, Pre placed GW (Knossos), benefits: Increaces movement of naval units

Note - The Romans will be able to build the Temple of Apollo, Dionysus/Bacchus and Poseiden/Neptune, and the Egyptians will be able to build the Temple of Zeus - Amon.

Egyptians
Osiris, Requires Egyptians and river in radius, benefits: 2 happy faces or auto produce slave?
Isis, Requires Egyptians, benefits: Happy face and less corruption
Horus, Requires Egyptians in radius, benefits: 50% Research
Set, Requires Egyptians and Camels in radius, benefits: Less WW
Anubis, Requires Egyptians, benefits: 50% Commerce
Ptah, Requires Egyptians in radius, benefits: 25% Production
Bast, Requires Egyptians in radius, benefits: Happy face and propaganda shield
Siwa Oracle, Pre placed GW (Siwa), benefits: Temple of Zeus-Amon in every city

Romans
Jupiter, Pre placed GW (Roma), benefits: 4/2 Happy faces in Rome/whole Republic
Juno, Requires Italians in radius, benefits: Less corruption, propaganda shield
Minerva, Requires Italians and iron in radius, benefits: 25% Production and 50% research
Mars, Requires Italians in radius, benefits: Less WW, stealth attack shield
Saturn, Requires Italians in radius, benefits: 50% Commerce
Venus, Requires Italians, benefits: 2 Happy faces
Vulcan, Requires Italians and Iron in radius, benefits: 25% Production
Pluto, Requires Italians and Iron in radius, benefits: 50% Commerce or production, but produces waste

Persians
Ahura Mazda, Requires Persians in radius, benefits: 2 Happy faces, less corruption
Fire Temple, Requires Persians in radius, benefits: 1 Happy face, 50% commerce
Mithra, Requires Persians, benefits: 50% Research
Zoroaster, Small Wonder-Persian flavour, benefits: 2 Happy faces Empire-wide
Epic of Gilgamesh, Pre placed GW, benefits: Less WW Empire-wide

Indians
The Maharabhata (Epic), Pre placed GW, Double effect of Derasars
The Ramayana (Epic), Pre placed GW, Double effect of Mandirs
Derasar (Jain Temple), requires Indians in radius, 2 happy faces
Mandir (Hindu Temple), requires Indians in radius, 2 Happy faces
Tirtha (Jain pilgrimage site), requires Indians and Indian Elephants in radius, 50% Commerce
Stupa (Buddhist Temple), requires Indians, very expensive to build to represent the recent introduction of Buddism into India, 3 Happy faces

I could do with some info on Indian religion at the time D Blue, if you're out there?), AFAIK it was pretty much Hindu, though Buddhism was on the rise. What would be the most important temples of the area to represent in a scenario like this. Also, if anyone knows much about Persian (especially Zoroastrian) religion then please because I haven't got much of a clue.

One other thing - I was planning to have really powerful defensive troops in the various areas that Alex had to conquer that would upgrade to powerful attacking units when a certain tech timer arrived. However, I am not sure that the AI is going to upgrade the units when it should so I'm thinking about making an improvement that gives a defence bonus of about 900%, only when this goes obsolete Alex will be able to move his campaign forward. Does this sound like an improvement or am I overlooking something really obvious?