Aliens ?

[RallyK]

can i just point out (yes i am an aethiest) that it is impossible for christian views on how god created the earth to be true. That is because the average christian beleives that god created the world within 7 days. What proofs this creation did not happen is dinosaurs. Yep, you read that right, dinosaurs. And unless you wish to state that dinosaurs did not exist then you need to re-examine your views on how god created the earth. This is because as christians state that Humans were created on the 6th day of creation. Seeing how the earliest humans came at least 65 million years after the dinosuaurs this sounds a bit ridiculous. And also where do dinosaurs fit into the creation bit, eh? (this goes for all other creatures that lived and died before humans to)

Well, a day by our standards is one revolution of the earth. So how could He say He created times of light and darkness on the Earth on one day when those times are the standard by which a day is measured. Obviously there is a different definition of a day used by God. Unless you know the length of a day for a being which is infinite and all-powerful, then I suggest you accept His Word for it.

Just on that Catholisism debate: If you compare the general scientif beliefs versus the catcholic beliefs you will come to the conclusion that the scientific beliefs can be proven and the catcholic's beliefs not.

Have you read Meditations by Rene Descartes? That's right, a renowned scientist from the 1700's who invented the Cartesian coordinate system wrote his own proofs on the subject. He doesn't tackle Catholithism directly but I think you might find it interesting if you haven't read it already.

 

[Scrimshaw]

why do people automatically think they would be smarter then us?

Read my earlier post about the possible propulsion requirements to get here in a normal lifespan. We haven't been able to do anything like that yet so any beings that can get to us have to be smarter than us.

Don't get me wrong, I think for every species smarter than us, there are probably 100 or more that are dumber. But we won't get to see any of those until we get to that level.

[This message has been edited by Scrimshaw (edited July 25, 2001).]

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

from Rallyk:

Well, a day by our standards is one revolution of the earth. So how could He say He created times of light and darkness on the Earth on one day when those times are the standard by which a day is measured. Obviously there is a different definition of a day used by God. Unless you know the length of a day for a being which is infinite and all-powerful, then I suggest you accept His Word for it.

If everything in the bible can be taken symbolicly then it's worthless as an reference ,because everything can always be put in a different context.It's like with nostradamus centurie's,it's practicly useless for any
human being ,you can't take strong conclusions out of it for the future.But it can be used to link historical events to it in a manner that it always be negoiateble.
You can believe in it ,but its always useless in discusions ,beause it make's the discussion un-constructive.You believe ,or you don't.

About accepting it's word for it ,i won't neccesarily.Why would everyone have to accept god's word for it?

Have you read Meditations by Rene Descartes? That's right, a renowned scientist from the 1700's who invented the Cartesian coordinate system wrote his own proofs on the subject. He doesn't tackle Catholithism directly but I think you might find it interesting if you haven't read it already.

No i didn't ,and i think i wan't find the time and courage for it for the moment (mmm... hot summer)

Anyway i will be glad if you summerize the points inthere related to this topic.(i wana know if it backs me up)
Although Descartes with his 1700's knowledge isn't maybe a that good reference anymore in this modern age.(i mean maybe ,i first wana know what he actually wrote)

Now about how the aliens would possibly look like:
My oppinion is that the only things a liveform needs to survive is energie and a stable enviroment.And that they will look like an product of the energie it uses.Yes, i even think you will have liveforms that live on electricity for example.
just like i stated a few posts earlier:

In 1997 some scientist discovered cave's in bulgaria that were tottaly closed of the rest of earth.They found small lifeforms living in enviromental conditions totaly diferent from the rest of earth.The liveforms lived in a cave with an average 50° Celc. and no oxygen or light.Instead ,the liveforms lived on Acid.Yes Acid, that was the only energie they needed.So i don't think that a planet has to be that simelar to our earth for liveforms to live on it.

Those creature's in these cage's are almost aliens ,they've developed in a totaly diferent enviroment closed off for the rest of the world for milions of years.

Thus i think aliens will be formed according to the possebility of the energie it uses.
(those acid-living creatures in bulgaria for example were very small (about a small spider big))
So aliens probaly will come in a great diversity ,something we probaby can't imagine.

I also think that aliens most of the time will have an semi-agressive nature. (like humans)
That's because i think that every liveform will develop between others.Every planet that has an liveable enviroment will probaly give birth tho thousands of different liveforms rather than just one sort.So most aliens will be co-existing with others on their own planet probably in an violent way.(just like on earth) That just sounds logical to me.I even think every liveform needs that competition to actually develop in a good way.

 

[stellar converter]

hmm, iroquois, that is more for during the law of moses. and that stuff is still pertinent to jews.(i think)

being close minded isnt necessarily a bad thing, az, and its not an insult, but you certainly fit under that category if you think there are no aliens because it doesnt say so in the bible! and, taking things literally means taking them for face-value, which is certainly not an insult, either. maybe it translates differentley into greek...(is that the lang you speak, or do you just speak good english?)

john 10:16 and other sheep i have, which are not of this fold: them also i must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shephard.

kjv.

 

[RallyK]

On Rene Descartes:

If anyone thinks they have a better understanding of his work, please correct me. I read a translation (a good one I'm told).

RD starts off saying how he has learned that many things that he took for fact have turned out to be untrue (he doesn't say what exactly). Realizing he can't be sure what is real, he attempts an experiment. By totally emptying his mind and assuming that everything is in doubt, he considers what is necessarily true. He imagines that he might find that nothing is true and he will never be sure of anything, even his own existance.

Actually in a way he invented virtually reality or The Matrix type of reality, by assuming that God could be an all-powerful deciever. For instance he assumes this world may not exist. For this reason, he realizes that he can not rely on his senses for any of his proof. Using logic, though, RD realizes that he can think, and whenever he has a thought that he must exist whether or not God exists or is an all-powerful deciever. For even if God is an all-powerful deciever, RD must exist in order to be decieved. RD is famous for the line "I think therefore I am." That line isn't exactly in the text but that is basically what he says.

So RD is sure that he exists, but can only be sure that he is a thinking thing and nothing else. This is where I'm a little hazy on his proofs (or atleast the order of them).

RD attempted a proof to the fact that God exists through different types of thoughts he had. He hit a dead end though and tried this. Based on the law of cause and effect which is evident by the "light of nature" (in other words he doesn't have to prove it) every effect has to have a proportional cause. Next, RD categorized all the thoughts he had to see if there were any that could not have originated from him. His categories were inanimate objects such as rocks, other people, animals and plants, ghosts/angels (bodiless people), and God. All of these he could say came from him, except for the idea of God. His idea of God was an all-powerful, perfect, infinite being. Here it was. He could not possibly have a thought of an infinite being on his own, since he was a finite being. The concept of God had to be planted in our brains by God. He goes in more detail. It seems funny to think about, but I think he does have a point. If there was no God, you would think you were God (which he also considered and disproved).

RD says that God cannot be an all-powerful deciever, basically because why would an all-powerful being want to decieve him. It would be a sign of weakness, which negates the fact he is all-powerful. Since God is not a deceiver, RD realizes that he must have a body.

RD goes into some more meditations, such as the seperation of the body and soul. He says that everything that needs to be proven he has touched upon and he believes I think that nothing else can be proven by this means. He covers some of the paradoxes that have plagued religion. He mentions how humans are designed to make mistakes since we have limited knowledge but limitless reasoning. We can make a decision without knowing the facts. (Why would a perfect being create imperfect beings?)


So there is a brief summary, though I probably didn't do him justice.

Yes, I've gotten off the topic because he says nothing of aliens, but this is the Off-Topic forum.

 

[Leowind]

First, I don't believe the universe is infinite (as some have stated here). It is, however, mind-bogglying huge. It is entirely conceivable that life has developed/been created on other planets. that doesn't necessarily mean there is life elsewhere, but it seems reasonable to expect that there could be. to expect such life to have gained the technology required to visit us would imply they are far, far older than we. This, again, is conceivable, but getting less likely, given the millions of years of star/planeteray system development needed just to provide an appropriate place for them to live. Contacting alien life via radio signals/etc seems far more likely, so I don't think SETI is a complete waste of time. (I'd have to be more familiar with the details of SETI to have an opinion about whether the money would be better spent elsewhere). It is entirely concievable that life elsewhere is not carbon based, and we may not even recognize each other as life forms! We'll have to examine closely how we define "life."
I'm a christian who doesn't take all the Bible literally, and who actually believes evolution is at the very least partially true. I don't think the Bible precludes at all the existence of aliens. The Bible is a collection of books written by people addressed to people (humans), under the inspiration of God. Whatever level of Divine inspiration it has is filtered through the human experience of its various authors. Does this invalidate the whole thing? Hardly. Just means we have to work a bit to get at the truth in it, and never, ever trust that we've got God all wrapped up neat in a box and understand Him and His universe completely, 'cause we're not even close!

Late to the party here, but my 2 cents worth

 

[Iroquois]

Better late than never Leowind!

And there being life more advanced than us is more likely than you have originally stated. You forgot to tak into account that the universe is constantly expanding and new galaxies being formed on the outer parts. Well, the Milky Way Galaxy is no where near the center of the universe and so there are galaxies thaat were formed long before the Milky Way came into existance.

Also there is a great chance that there is more advanced life within our own galaxy since we are no where near the center of it either.

And as I stated before it is already known that there are at least 2 species that have visited our planet already.

Sasquach or "Bigfoot" was one that Indians saw and accounted for.

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"I have brought the good tidings of Peace and Power from the Chief of the Sky Spirits to all people on earth. Bloodshed must cease in the land. The Good Spirit never intended that blood should flow between human beings. 'Yo-Hen. Yo-Hen." -De-ka-nah-wi-da

 

[Leowind]

And as I stated before it is already known that there are at least 2 species that have visited our planet already.

Your arguments might carry more weight if you left this out, I'm afraid. I just cant' take very seriously any evidence of Bigfoot, alien spacecraft visiting earth, or the pyramids being designed by ET's. Given the interest in these issues, if there was evidence it would be forthcoming. If it really is a big government secret (not withstanding that as fun as they are to think about, such huge conspiracies of secrecy basically never happen), then you wouldn't supposedly know about it. Until I see some real evidence that is commonly accepted in the scientific community (and believe me, we would hear about it if that happened), then I remain respecfully very sceptical.

 

[RallyK]

I watched a show one time that talked about the possibility of aliens building the Pyramids. It was very entertaining.

I believe one of their points was that Stonehenge (obviously built by aliens

), the Pyramids, and some group of rock carvings in South America were all tied together because when you looked at them on a map and drew a line between them, the lines formed an equilateral or right triangle or something. Those rock carvings in S. America were made by Aztecs or someone, but they were only really visable from the air?? Does anoyone know anything about them or were they totally made up.

 

[Az]

Iroquois the Old Testimont rules are not aplicaple anymore and that is confirmed by the new one. And Jews still obei to many of these rules simply because they don't believe in the New Testimont.

Stellar just stop that silly Irony of yours if you want to discuss with me.

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[This message has been edited by Az (edited July 25, 2001).]

 

[Iroquois]

Originally posted by Leowind:

And as I stated before it is already known that there are at least 2 species that have visited our planet already.

Your arguments might carry more weight if you left this out, I'm afraid. I just cant' take very seriously any evidence of Bigfoot, alien spacecraft visiting earth, or the pyramids being designed by ET's. Given the interest in these issues, if there was evidence it would be forthcoming. If it really is a big government secret (not withstanding that as fun as they are to think about, such huge conspiracies of secrecy basically never happen), then you wouldn't supposedly know about it. Until I see some real evidence that is commonly accepted in the scientific community (and believe me, we would hear about it if that happened), then I remain respecfully very sceptical.

Actually, I am just stating facts that I know of. I can't tell you exactly how I know because I realy don't want my life turned upside down, if you know what I mean. But I can tell you it was an CIA agent that I got the information from.

However, I can certainly understand and respect your skeptacism since you may think I am lying and you don't know me.

Now in regards to the rest of my post, that you didn't comment on at all, you can see how highly possible it is that we are behind the universal learning curve because of how late our solar system arrived in the game.


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"I have brought the good tidings of Peace and Power from the Chief of the Sky Spirits to all people on earth. Bloodshed must cease in the land. The Good Spirit never intended that blood should flow between human beings. 'Yo-Hen. Yo-Hen." -De-ka-nah-wi-da

 

[Magnus]

Soooo - a theological debate about aliens? Maybe GOD is an alien...

 

[Grigory Rasputin]

hey, when you look at the chance or aliens existing or making contact, every calculation you do is dominated by one thing. the universe is hugde!

as such, other lifeforms probably do exist out there.

and we'll never stand a chance in hell to ever make contact with them (unless there's some microbes under the frozen ice on one of jupiter's moons) intelligent life within a few million light years is a ridiculous dream. thus, I guess that would make the SETI somewhat useless.

prove me wrong, demons of the heavens!

 

[Scrimshaw]

Your arguments might carry more weight if you left this out, I'm afraid. I just cant' take very seriously any evidence of Bigfoot, alien spacecraft visiting earth, or the pyramids being designed by ET's

Just thought I'd add some support to Iroquois's argument. Large bigfoot like creatures are indeed one among several kinds of aliens that have been seen.

I do not feel every sasquatch is an alien though as most are just a seperate terrestrial species of primate that lies somewhere between gorilla and man.

Soooo - a theological debate about aliens? Maybe GOD is an alien...

Hmmm. . .Maybe the other way around. Aliens are god and angels. . .

Him and his followers are just taking new forms that we can understand. They ditched the wings for large metal craft.

 

[Algernon Pondlife]

This topic started out nice and seriously, just skirting round the most vital question. But then everyone started to trivialize it.

The only truly important question about aliens is:

WILL THEY BE GOOD AT CIV?

By the way that clever story about the pyramids: well it should not be hard to match a few points against a bunch of stars. There are enough of them out there after all. I also heard that the fit was made to look good by inverting the shape, for what it is worth.

It is a mammoth inferential leap from the bible not mentioning aliens to that as proof that they cannot exist even without disputing the source and authority of the document.

Carl Sagan made a pretty decent job of debunking witchcraft, ufos and other hysteria related nonsense.

I was amazed to find someone assuming that this community would would have a high regard for the word of a CIA agent.

The trouble with speculation about alien intelligence is that we do not really know what intelligence is. Brian Aldiss's book, "The Dark Light Years" is a decent fictional treatment of the question.

The potential moral issues are tackled in James Blish's "A case of Conscience".

When you try to use statistics to speculate on the frequency of life bearing planets, you must also consider time, both with regard to longevity and because of the extreme lag in receiving signals from distant places.

I think aliens would develop ways of winning at civ without going to war, if they were smarter than us. After all violence is the last refuge of the incompetent (I would put that in quotes but I'm not sure of the exact text)

Oops! I only meant to write the first little bit. I must be mad

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Nothing is too wonderful to be true

 

[moksliukas]

Sorry, I might be a bit late in joining this thread, but I only noticed it today

So, aliens? yes, I do believe them in a way. Just because believing that humans are the only intelligent species would be too egocentric (remember - we thought universe revolved around us and we were the centre of the universe!). However, I don't really think they have visited us. Even if they live in Alpha centauri, it would take them 4.2 years to get here at light speed. That probably is possible, but where is the economic reason? Of course I am restricted to only a human way of thinking, so we can't predict the alien civilizations as their values, etc could be (probably are) totally different from ours (hell, we don't even know if they have bodies, they could as well be super-intelligent shade of blue

). If we ever contact them, it would be better if we reached them first, because otherwise... Look what Spaniards have done to Native Americans...

SETI program is an interesting project, but somehow it might turn out that someone will stand up and say "hey, sorry, we had a bug in the software we were using and therefore we have to start over again". It is very difficult to search when you don't know what you are looking for.

Someone said in the above posts that he didn't believe that the universe was infinite. It isn't. It just doesn't have a border, where you could "fall off". It's a bit like Earth: they area of the surface is finite, but you'll never find an edge where to fall off.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Soooo - a theological debate about aliens? Maybe GOD is an alien...

No this was not suposed to be an <u>theological</u> debate about aliens.Just about aliens. Az began with all this bible mambo-jambo. Why the hell is god here relevant anyway?
Sorry Az... ,but the theological part of this discussion isn't going anywhere.
like i stated earlier:

You can believe in it (the bible),but its always useless in discusions (on this topic),because it make's the discussion un-constructive.You believe ,or you don't.

from Iroquois:

Actually, I am just stating facts that I know of. I can't tell you exactly how I know because I realy don't want my life turned upside down, if you know what I mean. But I can tell you it was an CIA agent that I got the information from.

However, I can certainly understand and respect your skeptacism since you may think I am lying and you don't know me.

Ideed ,sorry ,but its worthless in this discusion ,because you can't prove anything.
But i take it within considiration ,and if you post more of your'e "inside information" i will be interested to read it.

Now in regards to the rest of my post, that you didn't comment on at all, you can see how highly possible it is that we are behind the universal learning curve because of how late our solar system arrived in the game.

It seems very likly that IF there are numerous numbers of alien species out there some of them will be more intelligent than us.
But theoreticly i'm not sure. Because our learning curve was never a constant. There were times in human history that science developed faster than other times.Compare for exampel the greek period or the roman period with the 7 or 8th centurie AD.Or like WW2 ,a scientificly very important period.
Although humankind's history is not that old in comparison to live on this planet itself ,development of earth's species was eradic to.Like with that meteorite hitting earth in the dinosaur time.It was a setback for the development of species on earth too.
So in theorie that could also occur on other (liveable) planets older than our planet .(or varios other natural disasters)
,with the same results.
Although as i stated that is not very likly ,it's just theorie.

Another question:
Do you think it's possible that aliens develop in space itself rather than on a planet? (in a nebula or something (i'm no space specialist)

Yet another question:
Do you think that it eventually would be possible for all aliens to come to our planet.Thinking of the distances ,would it be even possible to find a way (for every liveform) to travel at speed of light or even above that?