All Civ 4 BTS buildings ranked and explained - Henrik

[Core Imposter]

If seems your play style is roleplaying as an AI though. Why would you want no control on starting wars in a strategy game? Are you going to enter a war over a grudge against a more powerful civ? The AI do that and coincidentally also build a lot of unnecessary buildings.

I created a set of rules above and beyond the game mechanics which creates a different and sometime more challenging game. Momentum play has been around since before SMAC and while I admire those who do it well it is not the only way. They are not going to make a better Civ IV AI in my lifetime, so l am just modding the game, but in a different way.

Now, it isn't really roleplay if there are hard rules you follow, is it? I mean, you can roleplay it in your mind. Doesn't change the limitations of the AI exactly but you can change it up.

 

[Core Imposter]

As an example for any level below deity you can get a diplo victory with very low infrastructure and no wars. Just need enough hammers in one city for the UN. Culture requires the culture buildings obviously and science requires more infrastructure but that is true whether you conquer a lot of territory or not. For any of those victories (again, below deity) you can play the diplomacy to avoid defensive wars in the great majority of cases.

That's for standard setting, but not that many settings alter it fundamentally. Settings like huge map, always war (probably the most) or no tech trading have some effect as discussed above. No tech brokering in my view makes things easier though, because you can trade techs you research to one AI at a time without worrying they will trade it to others.

Well, maybe I need to learn to play better. Last game (agg. Civs, ragging barbs.), lets see, at least 6 of the 18 civs sent invasions over the sea, which my rules require follow up victorious wars to satisfy my elites and meanwhile I was hemmed in by neighbors. So, I was always going to be way behind the tech leader and culture was never an option. Am not playing on deity, that particular game would likely be unwinnable on deity, at least by me.

If you limit your barbaric tendencies, you also limit your little kludges. I'll just raze that odd little city, oops, not available and there it sits blocking you a thousand years later. I don't know if I enjoy playing with these rules or if it is some form of self-flagellation.

 

[antimony]

"require follow up victorious wars" What's a victorious war for that purpose? And can you decide when you declare it? In that case it seems you have some control.

But based on these settings, I would also guess Huge-raging barbs does a lot more to slow down the game than limiting wars. Huge increases the barb threat and slows teching as a baseline. Huge also increases potential conflicts by increasing the number of AIs, but separating them by continent as you do should mitigate that.

Do you have an example of a starting save for the kind of maps you play?

 

[antimony]

I don't want to be too skeptical, but often people who play with specific less common settings may still overestimate how much it shifts strategy.

That thread is a canonical example: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-novassals-no-fail-gold.682784/#post-16429709 , even though the specific set of rules is different than yours.

 

[Core Imposter]

I have to set a good example for my inner circle and the elites of my civilization, or I will end up being deposed. I can't bow to the demands of some runny nosed barbarian, nor can I be so capricious as to join a war against a civilization that has done us no wrong. (self-limiting, with some leeway to pick out one or two exceptions)

"require follow up victorious wars" What's a victorious war for that purpose? And can you decide when you declare it? In that case it seems you have some control.

But based on these settings, I would also guess Huge-raging barbs does a lot more to slow down the game than limiting wars. Huge increases the barb threat and slows teching as a baseline.

Do you have an example of a starting save for the kind of maps you play?

You can set up the rules for that however you think it would help the gameplay. I have a limit of three war periods including the initial attack, allow myself to take 0-3 cities in each period, but no more than 6 max, and I have control over when but before I can achieve a victory condition to win the game I have to uphold our civ's honor by winning a war in which we take a minimum of 1 city on their home continent or two island cities and make them pay some sort of tribute above that. But I can give the cities back. The rules have been evolving game to game looking for a little more interest.

You can use vassals and colonies or not. I am using the colonies now trying to create the Sid colony to see if that really exists (don't tell me). I always play huge, hemispheres, six massive continents, tropical, low, 18 civ, ancient, marathon, tiny islands (I think), no razing, city flipping on. I am not to the point where I am happy enough with how it plays to finalize my rules and post up a map and coax someone to play a comparison game. Takes too long anyway.

 

[Core Imposter]

I don't want to be too skeptical, but often people who play with specific less common settings may still overestimate how much it shifts strategy.

That thread is a canonical example: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-novassals-no-fail-gold.682784/#post-16429709 , even though the specific set of rules is different than yours.

Yeah, thanks. I'll take a look at that.

 

[Luke1195]

No, a culture boost is very often close to zero value. You should not fight cultural wars with the AI, it's just inefficient. You can win culture if you want to, but in an average game you can win in an easier way, one that doesn't require early planning really.

Culture from castle is irrelevant. Walls is for me the more important building.

Culture SPREADS your empire. You're losing culture wars to the AI because you're not building castles and cathedrals.

 

[Core Imposter]

Oh, I am in no way trying to posit an impossible or hugely difficult game to win. Just a different experience. The AI is always limited.

It does seem that the limitations might conflict with standard strategies, but I am sure the best players will win this sort of game.

 

[Core Imposter]

Culture SPREADS your empire. You're losing culture wars to the AI because you're not building castles and cathedrals.

I am guessing Sampsa isn't losing any cultural wars.

 

[sampsa]

I'm saying that it's not the type of war you want to fight in the first place. It's better to put into units. Then your EMPIRE SPREADS.

 

[Luke1195]

I'm saying that it's not the type of war you want to fight in the first place. It's better to put into units. Then your EMPIRE SPREADS.

That's true. It might depend on the traits of the leader you choose. I've been playing games with Creative leaders lately

 

[Core Imposter]

I don't want to be too skeptical, but often people who play with specific less common settings may still overestimate how much it shifts strategy.

That thread is a canonical example: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-novassals-no-fail-gold.682784/#post-16429709 , even though the specific set of rules is different than yours.

That's all new to me, I was away for like a decade. It is interesting how the strategy actually continued to expand in this old game. Some of it just doesn't interest me, so mechanical and when would a civ actually plan to fail to build a wonder (modern US excluded)? But it is impressive.

 

[Core Imposter]

I was recently reminded of that particle collider that the US spent two billion dollars on and then quit building. Why would the developers put fail gold in the game, that never made sense to me. If you are making a strategy game, there should be risks and consequences to failures. It's not supposed to be fun, is it?

 

[sampsa]

Some of it just doesn't interest me, so mechanical

What does this mean? Give an example of something that you consider mechanical and something you don't consider mechanical.

 

[antimony]

That's all new to me, I was away for like a decade. It is interesting how the strategy actually continued to expand in this old game. Some of it just doesn't interest me, so mechanical and when would a civ actually plan to fail to build a wonder (modern US excluded)? But it is impressive.

Impressive things have been done with that failgold mechanic, that's true, but the point of that particular thread was that a player like @sampsa can stay competitive with the AI at deity without failgold or tech trading, among other things. That was to illustrate that the fundamental aspects of strategy in the game don't vary that much, even on settings where certain "meta" tactics are not available or less powerful.

 

[antimony]

You can use vassals and colonies or not. I am using the colonies now trying to create the Sid colony to see if that really exists (don't tell me). I always play huge, hemispheres, six massive continents, tropical, low, 18 civ, ancient, marathon, tiny islands (I think), no razing, city flipping on. I am not to the point where I am happy enough with how it plays to finalize my rules and post up a map and coax someone to play a comparison game. Takes too long anyway.

Out of curiosity, how long does it take to finish a game under these settings?

 

[Core Imposter]

Momentum play itself, once you learn how to do it, becomes mechanical. I guess everything gets that way after you do it, but I don't want to be thinking of calculating overflows and things like that. It is a skill to be admired in someone else. Definitely mastered by somebody else also. I want a certain level of immersion and so I also build in some potential events like a crusade to switch it up. The plot or theme I am going for is something like "inner circle elites must be placated and what do those idiots want me to do now?". Which if you think about it is pretty much what the leaders of a civilization have to do, work towards goals with limited latitude to act.

Out of curiosity, how long does it take to finish a game under these settings?

A very long time. I am retired and pretty much a caretaker for my wife, so I don't get out much these days. Sometimes it's a blessing to move a stack of units around in the middle of the night.

 

[antimony]

Momentum play itself, once you learn how to do it, becomes mechanical. I guess everything gets that way after you do it, but I don't want to be thinking of calculating overflows and things like that. It is a skill to be admired in someone else. Definitely mastered by somebody else also. I want a certain level of immersion and so I also build in some potential events like a crusade to switch it up. The plot or theme I am going for is something like "inner circle elites must be placated and what do those idiots want me to do now?". Which if you think about it is pretty much what the leaders of a civilization have to do, work towards goals with limited latitude to act.

Old World is working well as a 4X with elements of managing your reputation with the elites of your empire, on the other hand it represents, thematically, shorter time and spatial scales than Civ, so it might lose that epic scale for you.

 

[Core Imposter]

Getting back to buildings. If you aren't sure when or if you can fight a war because of self-limiting rules like I use, then buildings are going to be built even if you aren't going culture. I still am not building health at all, little to no religious, but banks, yes. I generally don't build W/S/C a lot or run the sliders at 100% because it just seems like extremely unhistorical and gimmicky. I build banks with a few markets and generally at least half of the B tier is getting built in the core cities.

I'll build a bunker just as soon as the AI bombs me. I will. I promise.

 

[Core Imposter]

Old World is working well as a 4X with elements of managing your reputation with the elites of your empire, on the other hand it represents, thematically, shorter time and spatial scales than Civ, so it might lose that epic scale for you.

I looked at a video on it and was not tempted to get it but it's on my list. I keep telling myself I am going to get the RI mod but that thread is soooo long.