All new CS types, a rational probability?

[Iceco]

I don't really get all your points about the financial victory, but I think what would go well with it is the ability to buy/sell individual tiles, as has been suggested elsewhere, making wars for strategic resources better possible, or threats, though I don't think the AI processes demands well enough to make threats a viable option.

A financial victory should probably include some sort of system of money lending/interests. Economically powerful nations could lend to empires that run in deficit because of ongoing wars etc. and if that economic power of other civs is high enough, they win.
I don't know how viable this path would be, but I usually have at least a few civs "going bankrupt", sometimes only for a short time, over the course of a game. You'd still need to find a way to make them aware (and use) the possibility of lending even before actually going bankrupt.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Just brainstorming over rational principles here only.
I don't intend to overshoot the basic model (or concept) with Banking Interests since it is an *external* factor as far as individual Civ managing is concerned.
More like a CS such as Zurich mentioned earlier that provides fiscal paradise tricks that DO impact the whole Economic victory condition as well as some other key factors expressed overhere.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Why else do you all think i inserted New York as a diplomatic CS?
Yep, the real UN.
You built the wonder - that means you gained some influence in the Security Council (etc) and a responsability to spend regular flow of Gold to *THAT* CS.
In other words, every Majors must earn their Vote(s) in cumulative & progressive manners.

 

[Pouakai]

New York... see a small problem there to do with the fact it is quite possibly the most famous American city

 

[Zyxpsilon]

UN on (or into) Manhattan Island - sounds more accurate?
Or should i implicate the Bronx too?

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I keep forgetting the essential;

5) The return of Corporations would somehow implicate CS in both principles & features.
6) Buy/Sell, Economics, ratios, Banking, Investment.
7) Recession, Inflation.
8) Finance a War, still pay for Alliance, Subdue.

Anything else, anyone?

Maybe city-states could replace corporations to some extend in making resources more useful. You cold exchange resources for influence and boni with friendly or allied city states (on top of the additional boni)
Some examples:
Gift iron, horses, coal, oil or aluminium to a an industrial city state and every instance of a gifted resource gives you influence and production :+0,25 per resource from a friendly city state, +0,5 from an allied city state and +0,25 per turn from every gifted resource.
Gift marble, dyes or wine to a cultural city state and you recieve additional :c5culture
Gift luxury ressources to a mercantile city states to get additional
Gift strategic resources to militaristic CS and all combat units that require that particular resource receive a 5% combat bonus per gifted resource (you gift 3 iron, your swordsmen get +15% . Might be a bit hard to balance. Maybe give +5% per resource until 15% and then reduce it to +2,5% for every additional resource.
Gift gold, silver, oil, aluminum or uranium to a scientific city state for additional
Bring back the former health resources: exchange cows, wheat, sheep or horses for (keep it balanced: 0,15per in all cities when friends, 0,25 when allied. Not sure about this one: there should be some other use for food resources otherwise there's no tradeoff.
It's basically reverse mercantilism: You export raw resources and import luxury goods, or machinery or weapons or whatever.

This should provide some interesting choices: build another Swordman or use the iron to improve my other units, or get a production bonus ? Some city states could give an additional incluence bonus for resources they desire for a short time.
Additionally, to make it harder to be allied with multiple city-states some of them should not only ask you to conquer their rival but demand trade embargoes: lose 0,5 from Ragusa per turn for every iron gifted to Belgrade for example. Providing rival CS with resources should drive their approval below 0, something that now only happens when trespassing or being at war, and other major civilizations shouldn't just scold you for competing for the favor of the same CS, but also for being too unpopular with their ally and to too friendly with their allies rival. This could create blocks later in the game and lead to cold-war like scenarios.
Ramkhamhaeng should be most likely to rely on a block of mutually friendly CS, while Alex would have the easiest time to be friendly with CS who hate each other.
Aditionallythere should be modiefied or new policies: United Front improves relations with city states who like a CS you're already allied with, a new policy in the Commerce tree -let's call it Free Trade- reduces the penalty from providing rivals with resources etc.

That's my thoughts for now.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Superb thoughts on the extreme balancing principles necessary to "Implicate" CS (variety that is) in a supplemental set of features.
While i should insist that the SP track & Influence ratios also need a proper context, we shouldn't call it an optimal model unless Victory conditions are clearly defined or as said earlier, altered to provide the basics; Missions & Interactive components.

Even if health is brought back (which i don't approve of, btw - simply because Growth & global happiness are the indirect placeholders for it), yields impact doesn't change; Food, Production, Gold. The triangle. Slap in a few Cultural, Science & Happiness symbols. You get fine-tuning assets.

But in the CS dimension, you gain or you lose advantages that lead to some results.

Without Corporation (Economics), Espionage (Diplomacy) and Religion (Indirect Science somehow) factored in... the CS variety features offered here miss the goal -- which is to replace the single-vote syndrome while addressing other issues (Such as a Financial Victory condition) directly related.

Keep 'hem coming, these wonderful ideas - and let's hope designers are listening.

 

[razor436]

If there is one improvement to CS I'm hoping for, it would be to eliminate the CS message spam and reminders on the right side of the screen. It becomes unbearable when one civ declares war and all their allied CS declare war in turn. If you don't know what I'm talking about, play on huge maps.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

There's a solution for this already; Custom Notifications by Sneaks & Alpaca.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Multiplication... what multiply factors do you really want?

Refer to this incredibly well implemented version from now on;

Not Another City States Mod

All he needs now is to fine-tune functionality - i'm guessing.

LOCKED thread!

 

[ShahJahanII]

For financial CS, what about something like bonds?
For example, you pay them 1000 , and you get back 1100 , but over time.
If they are captured, this is cancelled, so you have to make an effort to defend them or lose your investments.
Maybe Industrial could give a basic production bonus? 2+ in capital and +1 in all other cities?
And a diplomatic CS could affect relations between other CS? Like cause them to go to war or peace against each other?

EDIT: Sorry didn't see the link.
Great mod.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Excellent suggestions, nevertheless!

If you have some extra patience read the entire thread where i've hinted about a complete revamp of Victory conditions that could alter Diplo and add an Economic aspect... stuff of a potential Mod (Iceco seems to be on the right track), AFAIC.

 

[void_genesis]

It seems everyone wants a bigger emphasis on CS quests and trading options, and I have to agree there too. It would be lovely to be able to sell surplus resources to the CSs (particularly when the other major Civs start dying off or hating you).

The main problem seems to be how cheesy the current diplo victory is. Buying everyone off at the last minute is shallow and boring. The primary issue then is that the UN vote is too simplistic. Would an alternative system that tracks CS influence over all history be better than just the influence in the last turn? This means you would need to develop and maintain relationships with CSs throughout the game. For each CS simply average the influence with each civ for the entirety of the game, probably with a bias to weight early influence more highly (since paying them gold or completing requests is usually harder in the early game). This means being friends for a while is still somewhat useful, and trespassing and worker stealing have potential consequences at the end of the game. It would be improved if you could make it harder for other civs to steal your CS allies based on how long you have kept them- maybe increase payment/reduce influence gained for CSs that have stayed allied to one civ for a long time.

This could completely change the diplo dynamic from being an after-thought to being the victory condition that needs the earliest commitment.