All Things Star Wars

[hobbsyoyo]

Well where does the milk you drink come from? I for once didnt give it a second thought. Luke's trying to repel Rey. He's trying to be gross and get her to leave. It makes perfect sense and I have no problem with it.

Cow teets don't look like sweaty old man boobs, as that alien's did. I don't think the motivation behind that scene was Luke trying to gross her out. If anything, he gave the impression that he didn't even think what he did was gross, it was just natural for him because of who he had become. And all that's fine but to me it came off as a transparent attempt to get laughter from the audience*. And I agree 100% with @Takhisis that it felt like a lot of people were laughing at various stupid jokes because they were conditioned to but it's obviously impossible to prove that. There were multiple moments where I just rolled my eyes at the juvenile humor and yet a lot of people were laughing with it.

@Sommerswerd I wonder if your rankings will change with time? I thought The Force Awakens was close to brilliant when it came out but it's since dropped considerably with rewatches, time and additional reflection. I actually still like TFA but it's such a recycled plot that it frustrates me and keeps it from being one of the top 3 movies.


*And it's not like I suddenly don't like humor in my movies in general or Star Wars in particular. It's just that scene wasn't actually funny to me and was gross and at risk of sounding like a broken record, was the kind of humor I'd expect in Deadpool or another Marvel movie and not Star Wars.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Same. With TLJ in particular, I felt they had really gone off the deep end and tried to turn the movies into a Marvel franchise. The humor was really juvenile and make Luke come across as a completely different character than the one from the original movies.

I really liked the portrayal of Luke because it showed him as having changed over the course of 40 years... growing cynical and bitter over the years. It would have been less interesting, albeit more predictable, if he was the same guy, just older, and more powerful... which is what I think a big segment of the fanbase wanted really badly.

Also... I have to point out the irony of complaining that anything about a Star Wars movie was "really juvenile"... afterall, Star Wars is supposed to be serious... serious, business amirite?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Also... I have to point out the irony of complaining that anything about a Star Wars movie was "really juvenile"... afterall, Star Wars is supposed to be serious... serious, business amirite?

You're right, which is why I added this just now to that post -

*And it's not like I suddenly don't like humor in my movies in general or Star Wars in particular. It's just that scene wasn't actually funny to me and was gross and at risk of sounding like a broken record, was the kind of humor I'd expect in Deadpool or another Marvel movie and not Star Wars.


Humor is fine. Juvenile humor is fine too. Un-funny, juvenile humor that is out of character and out of place in a Star Wars movie isn't.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I mean, we're never going to agree on that point. Luke's character development felt shallow, forced and dumb to me. It's not like I expected him to be static and exactly like he was at the end of the original trilogy. But I didn't expect him to be a completely different and much lamer version of himself that was written so as to pander to certain demographics.

 

[Sommerswerd]

You're right, which is why I added this just now to that post -

*And it's not like I suddenly don't like humor in my movies in general or Star Wars in particular. It's just that scene wasn't actually funny to me and was gross and at risk of sounding like a broken record, was the kind of humor I'd expect in Deadpool or another Marvel movie and not Star Wars.

Humor is fine. Juvenile humor is fine too. Un-funny, juvenile humor that is out of character and out of place in a Star Wars movie isn't.

For context on my perspective... as I mentioned earlier. I went to TRoS with five kids under 10 years old...including my niece who is 4 and my nephew who is 2. And keep in mind that Star Wars is... like it or not... a Disney cartoon... just like Deadpool or Guardians of the Galaxy, or Frozen or The Lion King FTM... so while some folks may not like it, I certainly can't see why they wouldn't expect it. For my part, I liked it just fine.

And yes my rankings have changed over time for sure, but I think I actually like TFA more than when I first saw it.

I mean, we're never going to agree on that point. Luke's character development felt shallow, forced and dumb to me. It's not like I expected him to be static and exactly like he was at the end of the original trilogy. But I didn't expect him to be a completely different and much lamer version of himself

We don't have to agree. I just like talking about it with you. I really enjoyed the surprise. I didn't find him lamer, I found him much more real and relatable as a cynical, obnoxious old curmudgeon. He reminds me of Clint Eastwood's character in Unforgiven, contrasted with the heroes he played in the Westerns in his younger years.

so as to pander to certain demographics.

Can you explain what you mean by this?​

 

[JohannaK]

TFA is the prime example of Abrams' work: a movie that dominates every element of filmmaking for maximum impact in the moment but with no heart.

Things just happen one after the other because the bad guys show up in order to get the movie moving forward. Finn and Poe and Rey and Finn are great, but their character moments do not flourish into anything because they are cut short by stormtrooper patrols and the Han Solo capturing the Falcon *and then* bad guys capturing Han's ship *and then*...

It's like, fine. It's not a movie I have any interest in watching again. It was on TV the other day and I purposely avoided it. It's just people running until the movie has to end. There is a plot about finding Luke and BB-8 that's just a MacGuffin so the chase can start, but then it never ends! When it is ending, and JJ feels he can drag it out no further, he pulls out Starkiller Base out of his lazy screenwriter bum. Starkiller Base was the first sign that things were wrong with this trilogy. I could overlook it because the movie is full of good moments before and the characters are really lively and it seemed to be going well.

I watched it like three times alright, but I could never forgive that awful awful awful third act, which is really a second act because there are no proper dramatic acts, just people running around being chased by the baddies, and then trying to chase down the baddies. Those are the two parts you can divide the film into. Nowadays I just dont even care about that first part because it was absolutely ruined by a second part that also irrevocably ruined the rest of the trilogy.

Why? Why did Luke abandon the Resistance in its hour of need and went all Yoda on the galaxy? Why did Ben become Kylo Ren? Who is Rey? Who is Snoke? Who is Poe? Who is Finn as a person? What is the First Order? What is the Resistance? Where is the Republic?

All TFA does is ask questions. In ANH we learnt who Luke and Han and Leia and Obi-Wan were before we got into the adventures. In TFA we see that Poe is a pilot, Finn is someone who runs away (but also doesn't?), and Rey is a good person. Han and Leia just left everything behind and found themselves exactly where they started, and Luke left everything behind to become a hermit. This is all that is established by TFA. Also your protagonist trio is separated: Finn is in a coma, Rey is training with Luke, and Poe is alive and well with the Resistance.

Why is Rey even there? Why would Rey go to Luke? Why did Rey ever even leave Jakku? Because she is our Luke, she has to leave her desert planet to destroy the Death Planet. So we can agree that leaving that hellscape is perfectly understandable by the fact that it is, you know, a hellscape, but what is the singular reason that makes her decide to leave? The fact that she encounters a random droid that tells her it needs to get back to the resistance. That's weak af. Which is why then the First Order are not just after the droid but also after her, because then she has no choice but to leave.

Same for Finn! We can buy him saving Poe because getting out of a Star Destroyer seems easier to do with a crack pilot at the helm, but supposedly his motivation is to run away from the First Order, and all he does is become increasingly more entangled with the Resistance for no apparent reason other than he has an instant crush on Rey. So he's a slave child soldier without a life whose entire motivation is established as running away from the bad guys but who keeps getting in their way at every chance he gets because... he's smitten? I guess I can buy that, but they never do anything about it, and Rian can't do anything about it because Rey is already training when Finn wakes up from the coma he is in at the end of TFA.

Poe isnt a character though, he's just a pilot. He was supposed to die when he crashed and was then rewritten in doing crack pilot stuff.

Abrams is a genius at creating moments between all these elements and giving us not so much characters but emerging relationships that we care about. However, he is incapable of threading a story where this moments can take place on their own. It's all RUN-Moment-RUN-Moment-Run-Moment-Final montage.

 

[JohannaK]

I actually really liked TFA and it's still a better done movie than any prequel because Abrams has amazing chops which Lucas didnt have even in his prime, it's just that it doesnt tell a dramatic story, which the prequels tried to do and the OT did really quite well. TLJ, by contrast, does have arcs with set ups and pay offs, and scenes that pan out on their own and mostly through character choices, even if some, like Finn's, are pretty muddled.

Finn's problem in TLJ is the same as in TFA. He starts by running away and supposedly grows into a rebel (which he does), but along the whole way, he keeps helping the Resistance for who knows what reason. Even then, I stand by his arc and Canto Bight because I do think that that's the core kf the story and theme that TLJ was getting at: we all can be a Force for good in the world, and we have a moral duty to do so.

Of course I didnt capitalise Force for nothing there.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

I for one saw a meaningful evolution in the character, a flawed, quirky man instead of the Gary Stu of the original trilogy.

I really liked the portrayal of Luke because it showed him as having changed over the course of 40 years... growing cynical and bitter over the years. It would have been less interesting, albeit more predictable, if he was the same guy, just older, and more powerful... which is what I think a big segment of the fanbase wanted really badly.

People that complain a paragon can't fall off his pedestal have never dealt with @GenMarshall in DYOS.

 

[JohannaK]

Hey, I sympathise but why are you still conducting this anti-CivGeneral campaign across disparate threads and forums and years?

Sometimes I wonder if you are not more obsessed with him than he is.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

Maybe if you actually read the comics you would understand I'm referring to the story itself, and am invoking him here because, as you well know, he draws a lot of inspiration from Star Wars and it's an illuminating parallel he will likely appreciate.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

For context on my perspective... as I mentioned earlier. I went to TRoS with five kids under 10 years old...including my niece who is 4 and my nephew who is 2. And keep in mind that Star Wars is... like it or not... a Disney cartoon... just like Deadpool or Guardians of the Galaxy, or Frozen or The Lion King FTM... so while some folks may not like it, I certainly can't see why they wouldn't expect it. For my part, I liked it just fine.

And yes my rankings have changed over time for sure, but I think I actually like TFA more than when I first saw it.

Star Wars didn't used to be a Disney Cartoon....That's probably the crux of the problem right there.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

People who like Marvel superhero movies. I will grant it that there is a huge, probably overwhelming overlap in fan bases here. But that's not an excuse to change up the entire feel of a franchise to pander to fans of the other franchise. Yes, it's all under the Disney house now so this is to be expected. That doesn't make it good or welcome. And I wouldn't be complaining if it were good...I liked Deadpool.

Although full disclosure, I actively dislike most of the Marvel universe.

 

[JohannaK]

I think the point Sommer is trying to make, that he's made many times before, is that Star Wars, by Lucas' own admission, was always envisioned as a movie for kids.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I think the point Sommer is trying to make, that he's made many times before, is that Star Wars, by Lucas' own admission, was always envisioned as a movie for kids.

Well yes of course... he did say that... but even more specifically... Star Wars is a movie for everyone... not just middle aged fans. And a movie that is trying to appeal to everyone, including kids and juveniles, is gonna have lots of moments that are well... juvenile. So the whole thing can't be The Godfather can it?

 

[Gori the Grey]

But, given Lucas' voracious filmic appetite, one part of it can:

Spoiler :

Jabba the Hut

I think the franchise has skewed a little more juvenile as it has moved forward, as it became more clear that part of the aim was to sell toys.

 

[Takhisis]

All TFA does is ask questions. In ANH we learnt who Luke and Han and Leia and Obi-Wan were before we got into the adventures. In TFA we see that Poe is a pilot, Finn is someone who runs away (but also doesn't?), and Rey is a good person. Han and Leia just left everything behind and found themselves exactly where they started, and Luke left everything behind to become a hermit. This is all that is established by TFA. Also your protagonist trio is separated: Finn is in a coma, Rey is training with Luke, and Poe is alive and well with the Resistance.

Why is Rey even there? Why would Rey go to Luke? Why did Rey ever even leave Jakku? Because she is our Luke, she has to leave her desert planet to destroy the Death Planet. So we can agree that leaving that hellscape is perfectly understandable by the fact that it is, you know, a hellscape, but what is the singular reason that makes her decide to leave? The fact that she encounters a random droid that tells her it needs to get back to the resistance. That's weak af. Which is why then the First Order are not just after the droid but also after her, because then she has no choice but to leave.

Same for Finn! We can buy him saving Poe because getting out of a Star Destroyer seems easier to do with a crack pilot at the helm, but supposedly his motivation is to run away from the First Order, and all he does is become increasingly more entangled with the Resistance for no apparent reason other than he has an instant crush on Rey. So he's a slave child soldier without a life whose entire motivation is established as running away from the bad guys but who keeps getting in their way at every chance he gets because... he's smitten? I guess I can buy that, but they never do anything about it, and Rian can't do anything about it because Rey is already training when Finn wakes up from the coma he is in at the end of TFA.

I think that with the new power trio we learn what they are but not who they are.
ANH: Force user, orphan, wannabe pilot, out to prove himself + idealist princess with a vengeance + space pirate, I mean pilot, accidentally doing good who finds he has a heart.
TFA: soldier who wants to escape (we're left to infer that the FIrst Order is terrible) + scavenger with mysteeeeerious past + ace pilot
We know the personalities of the first (original) power trio, their motivations, their capabilities. With the new ones, there's too much of their personality to be discovered. I.e. in ROS Poe is suddenly retconned into a more Han Solo-esque scoundrel with a murky past without any foreshadowing. Also Rey's reveal is an arse pull and a calque from ESB.

People that complain a paragon can't fall off his pedestal have never dealt with @GenMarshall in DYOS.

Miko Miyazaki FTW, beaches.

 

[Lord Shadow]

I think that with the new power trio we learn what they are but not who they are.
ANH: Force user, orphan, wannabe pilot, out to prove himself + idealist princess with a vengeance + space pirate, I mean pilot, accidentally doing good who finds he has a heart.
TFA: soldier who wants to escape (we're left to infer that the FIrst Order is terrible) + scavenger with mysteeeeerious past + ace pilot
We know the personalities of the first (original) power trio, their motivations, their capabilities. With the new ones, there's too much of their personality to be discovered. I.e. in ROS Poe is suddenly retconned into a more Han Solo-esque scoundrel with a murky past without any foreshadowing. Also Rey's reveal is an arse pull and a calque from ESB.

Miko Miyazaki FTW, beaches.

Isn't Rey exactly a Luke in nearly every way (now down to the evil parentage)? Scrappy Force-sensitive desert orphan with a knack for space piloting (Rey more inexplicably so) and a major Dark Side recent ancestor.

I suppose that makes Poe Han (especially with the scoundrel-like traits you mentioned), and Finn Leia since he... doesn't have much development to his character. I mean, who IS Finn? A supposedly idealistic stormtrooper who ran away and then helps the rebels because reasons. And he uses a lightsaber once. And that's it. Well, he's black too and the Star Wars universe needed more black people.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Too many unspoilered spoilers. I'm out.

 

[Lord Shadow]

Hmm.

Honestly, I would've thought that if you were interested enough in Star Wars to delve into a Star Wars specific thread and care about spoilers, you'd have seen the latest film within two weeks of its release.

 

[Takhisis]

Isn't Rey exactly a Luke in nearly every way (now down to the evil parentage)? Scrappy Force-sensitive desert orphan with a knack for space piloting (Rey more inexplicably so) and a major Dark Side recent ancestor.

I suppose that makes Poe Han (especially with the scoundrel-like traits you mentioned), and Finn Leia since he... doesn't have much development to his character. I mean, who IS Finn? A supposedly idealistic stormtrooper who ran away and then helps the rebels because reasons. And he uses a lightsaber once. And that's it. Well, he's black too and the Star Wars universe needed more black people.

Poe is attemptedly retconned into a Han in the third film. Finn remains undeveloped (the deleted/cancelled scenes would have done the character a lot of good). And, strangely enough, Rey also remains undeveloped.

Too many unspoilered spoilers. I'm out.

I thought you weren't going to see the film?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I am going to see the film when it's on Netflix-by-mail. I'm not going to see it in the theaters. It's the first one I've skipped in theaters since I was 12 and sold candy for $0.25 a piece to pay for the tickets. I'm kind of bummed but I felt like I wasted money on the last one and don't want to do that again.