All Things Star Wars

[Maniacal]

Best thing to wake up to ever. Well aside from maybe a beautiful, naked woman (or other romantic partner of your choice).

Regardless, both of these things require a change in pants.

 

[Phrossack]

Scattered thoughts on the trailer:

The cross-guarded lightsaber is interesting, though I think it would be easy to slice off your own hand with it. Then again, a lightsaber hot enough to melt metal should be hot enough to set your hand and clothing on fire if you hold it. The new astromech droid and the new model X-wings also seem interesting, and the new stormtrooper helmets look less derpy than the originals.

I laughed when I saw the helmetless stormtrooper, since he looked kinda like SNL's Keenan Thompson, and it seemed like this was going to be a spoof. And I didn't really care for the shaky cam that rarely gave you a clear view of anything moving.

Some people seemed puzzled that the Empire was still around 30 years later. They seem to subscribe to the "Sorry, the Rebels won" school of thought:


Link to video.

But in Episode VI, while the Empire had lost its founder and leader Palpatine, as well as Vader, the second Death Star, a huge fleet, and a lot of leaders, it still controlled countless systems, soldiers, and fleets. Even if it broke apart into warring factions, each faction would be strong enough to resist the Rebels for a while. And if the Sith are returning for the umpteenth time to continue the same old cycle of good vs. evil, one of them would probably try to rebuild the Empire for the evulz.

 

[Traitorfish]

an opportunity for me to crowbar an anarchist essay on how post-trilogy star wars should work into the thread DON'T MIND IF I DO.

(It's actually a really good piece, though, deffo go and read it.)

 

[Phrossack]

an opportunity for me to crowbar an anarchist essay on how post-trilogy star wars should work into the thread DON'T MIND IF I DO.

(It's actually a really good piece, though, deffo go and read it.)

Interesting. Some sort of post-Palpatine chaos and breakdown would make sense and be cool, certainly better than the EU writers deciding, uncreatively, that they'd just have the same goody two-shoes heroes with improbably busy schedules defeat Palpatine clones, the Empire, and super-duper weapons over and over. Such an aftermath would also break the cyclic history and black-and-white moral battle that plagues Star Wars. Evil Sith want to take over the galaxy and kill the Jedi for the evulz, and found an empire, only to lose it to the Jedi and the Republic, and then the cycle repeats forever. I want to see characters with motivations beyond being evil, fighting evil, and fighting to accumulate money that they never spend (I'm looking at you, bounty hunters!).

I was initially bothered by how the EU was destroyed--I'd invested way too much time into EU books, games, the Databank, and Wookiepedia to see it all go--but then I realized that the EU as a whole was an unworkable mess. I mean, seriously: The Old Republic was around for over 20,000 years?! Technology was trapped in a medieval stasis? Tens of thousands of systems and almost all the planets have 1G and human-breathable atmospheres? So while there were many real gems out there (and Dachs or no, I still like the Mandos), it was overall a sensible choice to scrap it all and start over.

 

[Traitorfish]

The Mandos are pretty great. Jet-pack space-cossacks, what's not to love? They're one of the bits of the EU I really hope they try to reconstruct, to some extent or another.

 

[Cutlass]

Spoiler :

 

[Valka D'Ur]

A Swiss lightsaber!

(that picture could stand to be smaller or in spoiler tags, though)

 

[James Stuart]

Some EU authors did wonderful jobs, and avoiided the usual Rebels = good, Empire = bad tripe. Timothy Zahn, for instance; Zahn's characters Grand Admiral Thrawn and Supreme Commander Pellaeon were clearly interested in order, not power. One could argue that they were anti-democratic and therefore evil, but as Pellaeon said in Vision of the Future; "Freedom is a highly relative thing." The Empire of Thrawn and Pellaeon was about freedom from tyranny and arbitrary justice as much as the Rebel Alliance was; they simply decided that order was more important than liberty, whereas the Rebels took the opposite approach.

The Corellian Trilogy is another example, though it eventually descended into a 'superweapon-of-the-month' story. The various Corellian Sector rebel movements all had differing goals, but in the end it was not simply a case of good-vs-bad; even the pro-Republic Selonians that sheltered Han Solo intended to negotiate a better (unfair) deal with the New Republic using the planetary repulsor. Even Thrackan Sal-Solo's Human League weren't entirely evil and tyrannical; Thrackan was very much the legal head of the Corellian state, and he legitimately believed his actions were justified to protect the human minority in the Corellian Sector. He was Ian Smith, not Hitler; misguided, not outright evil.

Then, of course, there's books like Darksaber and The Crystal Star, which make the prequel trilogy look like The Godfather Saga in comparison. If we could keep the good stuff about the EU, and get rid of the bad, I would kiss Walt Disney's frozen head on the lips.

 

[Phrossack]

The Mandos are pretty great. Jet-pack space-cossacks, what's not to love? They're one of the bits of the EU I really hope they try to reconstruct, to some extent or another.

Dachs didn't like them at all, but he seems to have vanished, so there's pretty much a consensus now that jetpack-wearing space Cossacks who consider armor an integral part of their culture are really cool.

They, and some of Matthew Stover's works, especially Shatterpoint, should stay. That was Apocalypse Now in space starring Samuel L. Jackson. Awesomeness overload.

Now, Disney and Abrams know that the prequels were widely panned (though I have to admit I really liked Revenge of the Sith), and reportedly Abrams has striven to make The Force Awakens more true to the originals. I just hope that he doesn't go overboard and just rehash the old recipe of good Jedi+evil Sith=Star Wars. While I wouldn't get rid of the Sith, I'd add more moral ambiguity. I also hope that he tries not to overdo the tired trope of having the protagonists being the descendants of the last protagonists. That creates a kind of hereditary, almost aristocratic idea of characters. I mean, it's a trope that is basically appealing, since it maintains continuity while also showing change over time, but it suggests characters' birth is the main determinant of their importance and traits, even though the son or daughter of a war hero or famous smuggler might just want to be an author or something mundane and have little in common with their parents. And the whole legend of a protagonist learning about their heroic ancestor and deciding to take up their legacy is also a tired, aristocratic trope.

I'm not expecting Abrams to shy away from this cliche--I figure he'll probably follow it--but it would be nice to see some very different characters, while maintaining enough links to the familiar past.

It would also be pretty interesting if the new movies might explore the theme of the old ways and people struggling with their obsolescence as new ideas, people, and technology take over. Imagine if the new Star Wars universe is like Traitorfish's example: decentralized, more chaotic, and so on. The old generation might reminisce about how they heroically fought to topple the evil Empire, but they'll be relics of an age of clear morality and clear enemies surviving in an age of ambiguity and uncertainty, where nothing is clear-cut. Their kids will listen but will make their own path, since the game has changed. Their grandkids will ignore them as fossils whose accomplishments and lessons have no application in the present day.

There could also be technological obsolescence, such as the rise of droids. The CIS was able to crank out absolutely overwhelming numbers of battle droids, automated vehicles, automated fighters, and even automated ships very quickly and easily. They don't need twenty years of rearing and training to be useful, they don't need food, water, or payment, they don't rebel or feel fear, and they aren't as easily destroyed or incapacitated. They are easily repaired and readily upgraded in both hardware and software. Their reaction speed and accuracy can far outclass any human's, if they are properly designed. The big problem of the CIS was that it was often poorly led, that the droids' AI was generally awful, and that, of course, it was destined to lose by the fact that the Empire had to emerge out of the Clone Wars. Yet people in Star Wars seem perfectly capable of designing intelligent and creative droids--IG-88, C-3PO, and R2-D2 spring to mind--which undermines the argument that droids can never be creative enough to fight effectively. Neither is your average, frightened, inexperienced infantry private, but people don't seem to notice that. Anyway, an army of droids, if smart enough to take cover and exploit their advantages, and if led by capable organic beings, would have a huge advantage over any other kind of army. Even Jedi skill can be overwhelmed by sufficient numbers, especially if complemented by skill, and organic troops would increasingly lose ground as the sensible armies picked droids instead. It would be interesting to see how characters react to the growing outdatedness of their skills, stories, and lessons.

 

[James Stuart]

Dachs didn't like them at all, but he seems to have vanished, so there's pretty much a consensus now that jetpack-wearing space Cossacks who consider armor an integral part of their culture are really cool.

For what it's worth, I also hate the Mandos. Boba Fett was cool, but an entire planetfull of him is not cool at all.

 

[Evie]

There's mando and then there's mando.

Some are armor wearing space cossacks. And some are Karen Traviss's take on the concept of the Mary Sue.

 

[Phrossack]

From what I've read, Traviss is the cause of this bizarre Mando-hate. She also had clone romances and claimed that there were just a few million clones in the war against one QUADRILLION droids. So let's just pretend she never happened.

 

[James Stuart]

From what I've read, Traviss is the cause of this bizarre Mando-hate. She also had clone romances and claimed that there were just a few million clones in the war against one QUADRILLION droids. So let's just pretend she never happened.

Traviss may just be the single worst EU author. This is a list of people that includes Kevin J. "Franchise-raper" Anderson, Troy Denning, and Vonda McIntrye (who writes a mean Star Trek book, but is completely out of place with Star Wars), among others. So one can't help but be impressed.

I take it back. Upon further thought, even Traviss isn't as bad as Elaine Cunningham. I can only assume that woman is either sleeping with, or blackmailing, the entire LucasBooks editorial staff. Probably both; I wouldn't admit to sleeping with anyone whose writing is that poor.

 

[Phrossack]

Traviss may just be the single worst EU author. This is a list of people that includes Kevin J. "Franchise-raper" Anderson, Troy Denning, and Vonda McIntrye (who writes a mean Star Trek book, but is completely out of place with Star Wars), among others. So one can't help but be impressed.

I take it back. Upon further thought, even Traviss isn't as bad as Elaine Cunningham. I can only assume that woman is either sleeping with, or blackmailing, the entire LucasBooks editorial staff. Probably both; I wouldn't admit to sleeping with anyone whose writing is that poor.

Not familiar with those authors--I can't remember the last time I read fiction for fun. Sounds like a good thing in their cases, though.

And about Traviss and the question of numbers: it's a big sticking point in Star Wars for me. Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale, and it's especially glaring when you look at the supposed numbers of the clone army. It was never more than a few million. In the entire galaxy. Earth alone has far more soldiers. Especially when you consider that they're spread out across thousands of systems all at once, and that each warship has thousands if not tens of thousands of crew because few people in Star Wars bother to automate anything, and that there are tens of thousands of such ships. It's my pet theory that the Republic armed forces were mostly comprised of non-clones, but that the clones did most of the heavy fighting and got all of the attention, but that's a lame attempt to explain away this lazy world-building. I love Star Wars and was raised on it from an early age, but I also love thinking realistically and with great detail about fictional universes to see if they make sense, and Star Wars kinda falls apart when you do that.

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm going to have to announce my support for Team Travis. She Mary-Sues the Mandos, no doubt, but mostly it's a reaction to the Mary-Sueing of the Jedi, which is far more prevalent and also, when you consider that the Jedi are objectively terrible, much less defensible. And I'd say that this shortcoming is redeemed by the fact that her work represents the most coherent attempt to given the Mandalorians an actual culture and society, rather than just being another set of Proud Warrior Race Guys with a distinctive helmet. She attempts to outline a distinctly Mandalorian mentalité, tried to draw out how they understand kinship and power and society and identity, even something as gloriously un-epic domestic architecture. (She even goes out of her way to de-centre Boba Fett, stressing his alienation from and frequently ambivalent relationship to his Mandalorian heritage.) Most writers just go "honour and jet-packs" and consider it a job well done.

I mean, go to the Wookipedia page on "Mandalorians". Most of it's "history", a long, Tolkien-appendix screed of epic deeds and epic doers. It's not very interesting. It's not even particularly Star Wars-y, it could be pulled from any fantasy setting. But if you look at the bit about "culture", where it outlines a distinctly Mandalorian worldview, very different from the "20th century Americans with the occasional planet of hats" that the Star Wars EU usually runs on: that's all largely taken from Travis, because she's the only one whose really bothered to take that sort of thing seriously. Whatever its faults, her work is the closest thing that we've got to an ethnology of the Mandalorians. Without her, you don't actually get space-cossacks, you just get a thousand-and-one Boba Fett expies, and who needs that?


Also, re: numbers, "three million" seems to be more or less the accepted number for the original Fett-clone across the EU, rather than something Travis came up with herself. I always got the impression that the Grand Army was a semi-elite force representing a relatively small proportion of the Republic's overall strength, which would mostly be comprised of local auxiliaries.

 

[Phrossack]

Yeah, those are all fair points to which I'll defer, since I haven't read Traviss, just read about her works. The clone numbers were mentioned in Ep. II, so they're not fully Traviss's fault. It's just that Dachs launched quite the rant against the Mandos some time ago. :/

But I wouldn't go so far as to call the Jedi objectively terrible. Sure, there was the Galidraan incident, but aside from that, I'm not too familiar with anything awful they did anytime around the eras of the movies.

 

[Evie]

The Jedi Code.

And really, letting Yoda be in charge. Any competent, non emotion-phobic person would have been able to handle Anakin Skywalker. Just not a dogmatic code-quoting green muppet.

The only reason the Jedi and their philosophy are the "good" side is because the only alternative go out of their way to kick puppies.

 

[James Stuart]

The Jedi Code.

And really, letting Yoda be in charge. Any competent, non emotion-phobic person would have been able to handle Anakin Skywalker. Just not a dogmatic code-quoting green muppet.

The only reason the Jedi and their philosophy are the "good" side is because the only alternative go out of their way to kick puppies.

Yoda wasn't in charge. Samuel Jackson was. And the Code, for all its faults, was better than some of the alternatives. C'baoth, for instance.

 

[Phrossack]

The Jedi Code.

And really, letting Yoda be in charge. Any competent, non emotion-phobic person would have been able to handle Anakin Skywalker. Just not a dogmatic code-quoting green muppet.

The only reason the Jedi and their philosophy are the "good" side is because the only alternative go out of their way to kick puppies.

I don't see how the Code is evil. It seems to advocate detachment and protecting the peace, which sounds pretty good to me, and which worked very well for at least a thousand years. There's nothing in it encouraging bigotry, violence, hate, or selfishness--quite the opposite. The Jedi generally knew when and how to take the peaceful way, and when and how to do things violently. If anything, they weren't violent enough--the Trade Federation and the other corporate empires with private armies should have been busted, violently if necessary, after the Naboo crisis, and possibly even before it. Like the UN, the Jedi tried so hard not to be evil that they sometimes missed chances to act against wrongdoings.

And Anakin's emotional attachments did lead him to the dark side. His love of Padme made him swear allegiance to Palpatine because he claimed to know how to save her from death. His arrogance and overconfidence certainly didn't help, either. His raging massacre of the Tuskens also pushed him in that direction, though to be honest I'd have done the same thing. What could the Jedi have done to stop him from going over?

 

[Evie]

Hired a psychologist, and recognized that having emotion and attachments is a normal and healthy part of being a human and being part of the world while being forced to bury them and try to avoid them just turn you into a repressed git who flips to the dark side and has no reason to ever get off his rear end and do anything (or who generally develop a host of psychological issue).7

It,s telling that the closest thing to sane Jedi in all Star Wars are Qui-Gon and OT Obi-Wan. The one was turned down for the council due to being a bit too into the world, and the other had twenty years to meditate on how badly the council messed up (and to de-toxify his mind of their poison).

Mostly the Jedi Code "make sense" within the context of the story because the story is bent over backward to accomodate GL's childish view of humanity.

And of course, Yoda and his code being wrong on a fundamental aspect of the OT: he believes those who embrace the dark can never leave it again, but as we all know by now, Luke spend most of Jedi proving him wrong on THAT one (Anakin being quite explicitly reunited with the light side at the end of that movie).

(Also also, tha twhole 'If ever you go dow thte dark path... thing is a self0fulfilling propheyc because anyone who ever does, evne if just once, is going to eel they ahve to hie it, get stuck in a web of lies trying to avoid appearing dark side to the jedi, and keep making worse and worse things to cover up the initial one mistake that a more flexible and non-moronic philosophy would likely have been able to handle with a minimum of fuss. To err is human, after all.)