Allende vs. Pinochet revisited

[John Wayne USA]

Salvador Allende, former Socialist leader in Chile, had his regime toppled by the Chilean military, headed by Pinochet in 1973.

There has been much debate over what was the better chioce for Chile, Pinochet or Allende?

There has also been discussion of the US role in all of this -

How much of a role did the US/CIA have?

Do you feel the US' position was correct?

I personally feel that Allende was headed towards a totalatarean path. Setting up Chile to be another dreaded Cuba, a complete proxy of the Soviet Union.

Allende is made out to be the patron saint of democracy, but he actually received less than 40% of the vote and was actively opposed by most Chileans.....

The Allende gov. was working with the Cuban and Soviets to spread Communism throughout Latin America. This was opposed, in my mind, rightfully opposed by General Pinochet and the United States.

Pinochet said that his rule was going to be temporary and true to his word , it was. In the early 1990s, the people voted Pinochet out and he voluntarily resigned, thus giving democracy to the people of Chile.

Comments?

 

[jack merchant]

Interesting to see that twenty years of Pinochet rule can be considered 'temporary' Furthermore, as I said in the other thread, Allende was democratically elected according to the system in place, and Chile is not the only country where it is possible to be elected with less than a majority of the vote .

Finally, it is of no use to compare Pinochet and Allende. It is quite evident that the role of the West in propping up murderous regimes to stop the spread of 'communism' was a historic mistake, and remains the source of much hostility towards it even now in the countries affected. The actual comparison should be between regimes like Pinochet's and possible democratic alternatives.

It is quite sad that people still want to find excuses for Pinochet, the juntas in other Central- and Latin American countries and the support for Mobutu in Zaire, among others. In effectively condoning the use of torture, mass murder and disappearances in the name of democracy, democracy itself loses its legitimacy.

 

[napoleon526]

JW USA, talk to the poster named Gerard. He's from Chile and was tortured by Pinochet's thugs.

And stop trolling.

 

[Adebisi]

But when a dictator is democratically elected, democracy is no longer an option.

I dont think that Pinochet was a saint but I think he was the better of the two alternatives. Chile hasn't gone back to communism after his regime was over either - altough the people can now decide their government.

 

[wilbill]

I'm impressed, JWU, you've managed to portray one of the more brutal, repressive dictators in recent South American history as some sort of beloved "grand old man" of the people. I could picture him on the veranda, smoking his pipe, while little children came to sit on his lap and pay resepects. I could if he hadn't fled the country upon his "retirement."

 

[Akka]

Don't feed the troll.

It's obvious from his very first post that this guy IS a troll, so why bother ?

 

[John Wayne USA]

I'm impressed, JWU, you've managed to portray one of the more brutal, repressive dictators in recent South American history as some sort of beloved "grand old man" of the people. I could picture him on the veranda, smoking his pipe, while little children came to sit on his lap and pay resepects. I could if he hadn't fled the country upon his "retirement."

Pinochet was hardly the "most brutal dictator" in Latin America.

There were little over 3,000 victims during the Pinochet regime.

In the socialist utopia of Cuba, there have been 50,000.

Pinochet has not fled the country, he currently resides in Chile.

And once again, the question, was, not if Pinochet was a saint, but if he was the lesser of the two evils.

In my opinion , looking at what the Communism has done in Cuba, Soviet Union, China, etc there is a good argument that Pinochet was the lesser.

 

[Ohwell]

Wait, Allende was on the road to totalitarianism, but PINOCHET ALREADY WAS!

I also want evidence that Allende was heading toward totalitarianism, not your chicken-scratch opinions. I can prove you know nothing on the topic, because Pinochet lives in the UK, NOT in Chile.

 

[Sanscizo]

Patriotism is such a blinding thing.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

History topics belong in the history forum...moved.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by Ohwell
Wait, Allende was on the road to totalitarianism, but PINOCHET ALREADY WAS!

I also want evidence that Allende was heading toward totalitarianism, not your chicken-scratch opinions. I can prove you know nothing on the topic, because Pinochet lives in the UK, NOT in Chile.

Sorry Ohwell, he left here a couple of years ago, and I think did return to Chile, although I'm not sure.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

I was around then, and wathing the developments in Chile before Pinochet's coup. Allende was taking steps of aggrandising power, in the traditional mehtods of furture leftist dictators. Step similar to Hugo Chavez today. Supressing other organs of his goverment and usruping their fuctions. Imtimidtions of courts. Harrasment and violence by 'supporters' against opposition. Supression of dissent, law changes to enhance and lengthen his power. He was far from becoming totalitatrian, and no tellings where he would have ended up, other than same leftist aggrandisment pattern repeating itself. We will never know how bad he would have become, cause he was caught short by the faster moving rightist dictator, Pinochet. Givin Allende's steps, there was very likely going to be some sort of reaction, coup, or civil war, with or without Pinochet. Pinochet clearly had no qualms about dictatorship, suppression, and some atrocity by his side.
I would not give you 2 cetns for either one.

 

[Ohwell]

Originally posted by Pillager


Sorry Ohwell, he left here a couple of years ago, and I think did return to Chile, although I'm not sure.

But until that very recent moment he had to flee Chile so he wouldn't get decapitated by thousands of angry families.

 

[col]

He was very friendly with a certain far right ex prime minister who invited him over here for er medical treatment.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Originally posted by John Wayne USA
Salvador Allende, former Socialist leader in Chile, had his regime toppled by the Chilean military, headed by Pinochet in 1973.

There has been much debate over what was the better chioce for Chile, Pinochet or Allende?

There has also been discussion of the US role in all of this -

How much of a role did the US/CIA have?

Do you feel the US' position was correct?

I personally feel that Allende was headed towards a totalatarean path. Setting up Chile to be another dreaded Cuba, a complete proxy of the Soviet Union.

Allende is made out to be the patron saint of democracy, but he actually received less than 40% of the vote and was actively opposed by most Chileans.....

The Allende gov. was working with the Cuban and Soviets to spread Communism throughout Latin America. This was opposed, in my mind, rightfully opposed by General Pinochet and the United States.

Pinochet said that his rule was going to be temporary and true to his word , it was. In the early 1990s, the people voted Pinochet out and he voluntarily resigned, thus giving democracy to the people of Chile.

Comments?

Yes! And wouldnt it have been better if Hitler beat the russians so we didnt have to put up with the red menace in eastern Europe for so long!?

Seriously though, personal opinions, in this case yours, should not decide the future of a country. If you think Allende didnt get enough votes, look at your own latest election.

Putting your noses in the business of others have created so much suffering in a countless number of nations, at least thats my personal opinion.

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by Chairman Yang
Putting your noses in the business of others have created so much suffering in a countless number of nations, at least thats my personal opinion.

I know, like the Soviet Union in East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Albania, Mongolia.

Or Cuba in Nicaragua, Angola, or Mozambique.

Or North Vietnam in Laos, Cambodia, South Vietnam.

Or China in Tibet or North Korea.

 

[Anti-EUA]

What? Only 3000 killed? This guy really knows nothing! Ask any chilean person that lived the situation. Pinochet had no place else to put so many dead bodies he started to create really large hollow walls to put bodies in it! Some say in the first 21 days, Pinochet killed more than 21 years of dictatorial government in Brazil, and here we had 71000 deaths, not to count missing ones!

Allende was ellected in a democratic election, so what if he did not get the majority? He had 34% against 32% of Eduardo Frey (someone correct me if I am wrong, but IIRC this is the name) and in three years boosted chilean internal economy and dropped the number of socially excluded people. What pissed lots of people off is that he nationalized the copper mines, and payed $1 (yes, one dollar) for each mine, since the government was the one to estipulate the price. And I say it is a lot, since these same mines granted hundreds of millions to american companies for more than 40 years, while the chileans couldn't see a nickel from this. Even the ones working on the mines were really poor, almost slaves, since they were used to work 14 hours per day inisde the caves!

And Pinochet DID fled the country.

 

[animepornstar]

Originally posted by napoleon526
JW USA, talk to the poster named Gerard. He's from Chile and was tortured by Pinochet's thugs.

And stop trolling.

i think gerard is from argentina and was also tortured in argentina.

 

[John Wayne USA]

Moderator Action: Such insesitivity is not within CFC's standards
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[animepornstar]

i can't add to the second part of his sentence if i'm correcting the first part, right? either you or i must have bad english comprehension and i'm from sweden, so i hope it's not you.