Maidan

[r16]

this thread should have remained at the first page . So that when the brain washing ended , people would have searched for the word Maidan and it would have helped to make sense of events . Like how some people painted some armoured vehicle with the Balkenkreuze and the polite green people were a response to that . Instead of opinion pieces on how Russians should attack and capture places and promise , promise , really promise that NATO would have failed to respond . Which was a fact , too . Where dreams of easy wins ended in Debaltsevo , which was like back in 2014 or so .

 

[Crezth]

You gotta love how one side of the discussion is “here’s what’s happened in the past and why it matters” and the other side is just feet stomping about enemy propaganda and how obvious it is that they’re right. It’s not like obviously obvious but it’s obvious to them, supposedly. Europe must rise or something. Or Russia must not rise. NATO must expand. And provocations don’t cause war, the enemy being Mongols does.

 

[Sarin]

I mean, just read. If you don't want to, why should I do the legwork?

You already misread a very clear statement, and I clarified plainly, without hassle. But you need to put work in too, yeah?

You made the statement, you do the legwork to support it. Yeah, burden of proof is on you.

I didn't misread, but really, if it wasn't aimed at me specifically, it would be simply irrelevant. What other people might say about that have nothing to do with integrity of my arguments.

 

[Crezth]

I mean, proving my point masterfully. Pure deflection. They don’t even bother making arguments either, they just take it as granted they’re right and say some dumbass tv news soundbite like “illegal invasion.” Ooh let’s learn about illegal invasions. Yes we are a world that opposes illegal invasions! Snort.

 

[amadeus]

If we’re going to do a thoughtful analysis of cause and effect, it may be worth considering why

the Poles,
the Hungarians,
the Czechs,
the Slovaks,
the Estonians,
the Latvians,
the Lithuanians,
the Slovenes,
the Croats,
the Macedonians,
the Kosovars,
the Bulgarians,
the Romanians,
and the Albanians

all went in for NATO? I wonder if they had some kind of shared history that motivated them to join.

 

[Gorbles]

You made the statement, you do the legwork to support it. Yeah, burden of proof is on you.

I didn't misread, but really, if it wasn't aimed at me specifically, it would be simply irrelevant. What other people might say about that have nothing to do with integrity of my arguments.

Actually the burden of proof is on people calling names, and you've demonstrated that you're exempt via self-justification, so why should anyone else bother?

This is the problem with any race to the bottom. If I rush down to join you, nobody wins, and we get nowhere. So I try, but there's a limit on my time. Why should I be willing to do the things when you don't subject yourself to the burden of proof, or any other phrase the Fallacy Tribe like to invoke to win argument points? Ad hominems, false equivalences, burden of proof. Be consistent! If you say it's okay when you do things, for any reason, then there's no reason I can't do the same. The only way we get anywhere is by trying to take the other person's arguments in good faith.

And just like the death of nuance in the RD thread, we're not seeing that here.

 

[Sarin]

Actually the burden of proof is on people calling names, and you've demonstrated that you're exempt via self-justification, so why should anyone else bother?

This is the problem with any race to the bottom. If I rush down to join you, nobody wins, and we get nowhere. So I try, but there's a limit on my time. Why should I be willing to do the things when you don't subject yourself to the burden of proof, or any other phrase the Fallacy Tribe like to invoke to win argument points? Ad hominems, false equivalences, burden of proof. Be consistent! If you say it's okay when you do things, for any reason, then there's no reason I can't do the same. The only way we get anywhere is by trying to take the other person's arguments in good faith.

And just like the death of nuance in the RD thread, we're not seeing that here.

You've made a baseless claim, got called out on it and now you're trying to wriggle out of it by trying to shift burden of proof and accusing others of your own dishonesty.

When I made my Solovyov assessment, it was not baseless. It was based on previous conversation that demonstrated amply its correctness. And which is why I insist that if you quote it, you quote the entirety of conversation, because otherwise someone will do the same thing as you're doing right now. Call it a baseless namecalling to shield their own dishonesty.

 

[Gorbles]

You've made a baseless claim, got called out on it and now you're trying to wriggle out of it by trying to shift burden of proof and accusing others of your own dishonesty.

Wasn't baseless at all. I'm just refusing to do homework for you. You can use all the names you want.

For the record, I never said a word about dishonesty. You really are choosing any excuse to play the victim eh?

When I made my Solovyov assessment, it was not baseless. It was based on previous conversation that demonstrated amply its correctness. And which is why I insist that if you quote it, you quote the entirety of conversation, because otherwise someone will do the same thing as you're doing right now. Call it a baseless namecalling to shield their own dishonesty.

Every assessment I've made has been based on previous conversations that amply demonstrate correctness. Excepting the times I make a mistake, because I'm human.

That doesn't change the fact that an assessment can result in name-calling. It's factually what you did. We're back to "you can justify it however you want", even as it turns into "getting aggressive at posters who call you out for calling names".

If I could provide a quote, would it matter? No, because here you are, with the bad faith. If you were here in good faith, we wouldn't be at this point. You were looking for excuses from the start. Hence not wanting to play the game. You'd have found a justification for Akka accusing Estebonrober of ideological bias to the point of blindness, because of your existing bias.

Which is why I disagreed with your hollow "both sides are bad" in the Middle Eastern conflict. Because you have two powers imposing their will on foreign sovereign territory, and one you pretty clearly have picked a side, and the other one you "don't care about". But we should all care about Russia? Why? They're far away from me. Both sides are bad, y'know?

(laboured clarification if you got some reason take the sarcasm seriously, like I already said, I consider Russia and Israel bad vis-a-vis Ukraine and Palestine)

 

[Sarin]

Wasn't baseless at all. I'm just refusing to do homework for you. You can use all the names you want.

For the record, I never said a word about dishonesty. You really are choosing any excuse to play the victim eh?

Every assessment I've made has been based on previous conversations that amply demonstrate correctness. Excepting the times I make a mistake, because I'm human.

That doesn't change the fact that an assessment can result in name-calling. It's factually what you did. We're back to "you can justify it however you want", even as it turns into "getting aggressive at posters who call you out for calling names".

If I could provide a quote, would it matter? No, because here you are, with the bad faith. If you were here in good faith, we wouldn't be at this point. You were looking for excuses from the start. Hence not wanting to play the game. You'd have found a justification for Akka accusing Estebonrober of ideological bias to the point of blindness, because of your existing bias.

Which is why I disagreed with your hollow "both sides are bad" in the Middle Eastern conflict. Because you have two powers imposing their will on foreign sovereign territory, and one you pretty clearly have picked a side, and the other one you "don't care about". But we should all care about Russia? Why? They're far away from me. Both sides are bad, y'know?

(laboured clarification if you got some reason take the sarcasm seriously, like I already said, I consider Russia and Israel bad vis-a-vis Ukraine and Palestine)

Not baseless, you're just refusing to say what's it based on. It's on you, as maker of the claim, to provide the proof, otherwise it's nor a valid argument. Else I could simply say you're Putin trying to mess with us, and expect others to accept it and treat you as such.

If you think I made a mistake, you put forth your arguments against it. Not just accuse others. Doing that is argumenting in bad faith. And again, you pile up your assumptions about me without any basis for them. You think you know what I would do, what my biases are...but you only imagine that. You know nothing about me.

Why should you care about the conflict in Ukraine, besides any moral objections? I answered that a hundred times already. If Russia gets enough encouragement to directly attack a NATO country, nobody will be far away from the effects of a nuclear war. And equating those two conflicts is false equivalence. In middle east, both factions have the will and intent to genocide the other side because of a chain of mutual violence that goes back beyond the lives of current combatants. In Ukraine, the invasion, will and intend for ethnocide comes only from one side, and those who started it are still directing it.

 

[Crezth]

If we’re going to do a thoughtful analysis of cause and effect, it may be worth considering why

the Poles,
the Hungarians,
the Czechs,
the Slovaks,
the Estonians,
the Latvians,
the Lithuanians,
the Slovenes,
the Croats,
the Macedonians,
the Kosovars,
the Bulgarians,
the Romanians,
and the Albanians

all went in for NATO? I wonder if they had some kind of shared history that motivated them to join.

Or a shared profit motive. Honestly you don’t want to start listing countries because then we are gonna have to start talking about these UN General Assembly votes and we are gonna hear a lot about how the Chinese and Russians buy all their support. I just think it’s kinda funny that the poor powers can afford to buy support but the West’s supporters are just Good People who Get It.

 

[Crezth]

Not baseless, you're just refusing to say what's it based on. It's on you, as maker of the claim, to provide the proof, otherwise it's nor a valid argument. Else I could simply say you're Putin trying to mess with us, and expect others to accept it and treat you as such.

If you think I made a mistake, you put forth your arguments against it. Not just accuse others. Doing that is argumenting in bad faith. And again, you pile up your assumptions about me without any basis for them. You think you know what I would do, what my biases are...but you only imagine that. You know nothing about me.

Why should you care about the conflict in Ukraine, besides any moral objections? I answered that a hundred times already. If Russia gets enough encouragement to directly attack a NATO country, nobody will be far away from the effects of a nuclear war. And equating those two conflicts is false equivalence. In middle east, both factions have the will and intent to genocide the other side because of a chain of mutual violence that goes back beyond the lives of current combatants. In Ukraine, the invasion, will and intend for ethnocide comes only from one side, and those who started it are still directing it.

Gotta love how, again, no willingness to consider the history for Ukraine and Russia. Israel Palestine? A complicated issue, ancient history, bla blah. Ukraine Russia? Well now he’s pretending he doesn’t know about Maidan. These are the West’s champions, folks! That’s why this rotten house is crumbling down.

 

[Sarin]

Gotta love how, again, no willingness to consider the history for Ukraine and Russia. Israel Palestine? A complicated issue, ancient history, bla blah. Ukraine Russia? Well now he’s pretending he doesn’t know about Maidan. These are the West’s champions, folks! That’s why this rotten house is crumbling down.

Maidan isn't ancient history, and is yet another reason why Ukraine is in the right there. After all, it was Russia who commanded its puppet president to not sign the treaty which started the protests, it was Russia that decided to punish Ukraine's desire to break away from vassalage by annexing Crimea and formenting uprising in Donbas....

 

[Sarin]

Or a shared profit motive. Honestly you don’t want to start listing countries because then we are gonna have to start talking about these UN General Assembly votes and we are gonna hear a lot about how the Chinese and Russians buy all their support. I just think it’s kinda funny that the poor powers can afford to buy support but the West’s supporters are just Good People who Get It.

Maybe you ought to ask the people who voted for the NATO. After all, many of them are still alive, including my parents. And the answer is clear. We do not want Russia to invade us again once it feels strong enough.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: Chill guys, your chatter is getting out of hand and personal. Some posts removed.

 

[Crezth]

Maidan isn't ancient history, and is yet another reason why Ukraine is in the right there. After all, it was Russia who commanded its puppet president to not sign the treaty which started the protests, it was Russia that decided to punish Ukraine's desire to break away from vassalage by annexing Crimea and formenting uprising in Donbas....

Just ignoring the Yanukovych provinces and coup eh?

 

[Crezth]

Maybe you ought to ask the people who voted for the NATO. After all, many of them are still alive, including my parents. And the answer is clear. We do not want Russia to invade us again once it feels strong enough.

I honestly don’t care and neither do my countrymen. The only thing that matters is the value you add for us.

 

[Gedemon]

In my opinion, neither are equal. To render the situation in the Middle East "equal" requires some significant logical leaps, or outright false equivalences, to borrow your phrase.

I can't even begin to understand how one could not blame both sides actions there, but at least I now understand why you took that position in the Ukraine thread.

 

[amadeus]

Or a shared profit motive.

See bottom.

Honestly you don’t want to start listing countries because then we are gonna have to start talking about these UN General Assembly votes and we are gonna hear a lot about how the Chinese and Russians buy all their support.

If those votes had any relevance? More people vote with their dollars and their feet. Let’s count those votes.

I just think it’s kinda funny that the poor powers can afford to buy support but the West’s supporters are just Good People who Get It.

Who said they or we were all magnanimous paragons of virtue? The West is the Best!

 

[keli]

I honestly don’t care and neither do my countrymen. The only thing that matters is the value you add for us.

Then why do you so fiercely sympathize with Russia if you only care about the value people add?

I guess the issue is that we (eg myself as a Hungarian) are not brown enough for you and as such we cannot be victims.

 

[Akka]

Meanwhile, the accusation of being blind has been thrown about a number of times in this thread.

Yeah, facts are facts. When someone claims something, gets plastered by facts that proves the exact opposite, and then go on to smugly proclaim that it proves him right, there is only three possibilities : he's blind, he's stupid or he's dishonest. I was being charitable here.