Alone on continent: How to keep up with AI?

[exitpoll]

I play monarch, continents, 7 AI, standard settings. In a few games in a row I've found myself alone on a continent.

This leaves me out of the tech trading for so long that by the time I meet the other civs, they are far ahead in tech, leaving me virtually without a chance to win.

I have tried several tactics to keep up: Fast expansion with neglible defense, cottage spamming, pyramid rush -> representation + scientists in all cities, beelining to optics in order to meet civs earlier.

But nothing really keeps me from falling way behind.

Any suggestions on what to do when finding yourself alone on a continent?

 

[TCGTRF]

I play monarch, continents, 7 AI, standard settings. In a few games in a row I've found myself alone on a continent.

This leaves me out of the tech trading for so long that by the time I meet the other civs, they are far ahead in tech, leaving me virtually without a chance to win.

I have tried several tactics to keep up: Fast expansion with neglible defense, cottage spamming, pyramid rush -> representation + scientists in all cities, beelining to optics in order to meet civs earlier.

But nothing really keeps me from falling way behind.

Any suggestions on what to do when finding yourself alone on a continent?

I had this situation the other day, starting with MONTY! Man, that put a few holes in my original plan. Not only was I isolated, there was no coastal/island bridge to the rest of the world.

What I ended up doing was expanding as fast as I could while still maintaining a 50% or greater science ability until about 500AD. Then I beelined to Optics in order to send some Caravels out to find the rest of the Civs. I had two turns to go for Optics when the first AI Caravel found me.

When the Scores for the others were completely revealed, I was about in 4th place, which I don't consider doing very badly, considering the isolation and Leader qualities.

Tom

 

[Wodan]

Another thing you can do is build infrastructure. The AIs can't build infrastructure as well as a human can. Especially, get Monasteries most everywhere that you are getting gold income.

Wodan

 

[exitpoll]

TCGTRF: That sounds familiar.

When the scores were revealed I was 4th as well, but the two top civs (Huayna and Frederick) were best buddies and so far ahead tech-wise that I couldn't catch up.

3rd was Chi-Huo-Gong (or whatever his name is). He was extremely stingy: "We fear you are becoming too advanced"??

The two below me were two nutcases: Montezuma and Tokugawa.

 

[Finite Monkey]

The only success I have had with Island games on Monarch is to switch up my victory goal. Culture or diplomacy are the most doable for me in that situation and they go well with teh infrastructure building that Wodan mentioned.

Cluture wise you shoudl start that way as soon as you have confirmed your isalnd is isolated. Diplomacy wise gets trickier and that is best left to someone with more success than I.

Starting with Monty on an island though sucks.

 

[TCGTRF]

The only success I have had with Island games on Monarch is to switch up my victory goal. Culture or diplomacy are the most doable for me in that situation and they go well with teh infrastructure building that Wodan mentioned.

Cluture wise you shoudl start that way as soon as you have confirmed your isalnd is isolated. Diplomacy wise gets trickier and that is best left to someone with more success than I.

Starting with Monty on an island though sucks.

It was a respectable-sized continent, rather than an island--more than enough for seven cities without overlap. I definitely should have bitten the bullet and gone for a Cultural as soon as I saw that there was no one else around. The shock was great enough that it took me a bit too long to recover, I think.

But yes, there was suckage present.

Tom

 

[Grogs]

It's a tough situation. I played an island start on Monarch as the Egyptians recently (you may have seen the save posted here.) And while I ended up losing a SS race in the end, I was still able to stay competitive for the entire game. With a different choice of allies and a few more cottages, I'm pretty sure I could have pulled it out.

I built every single city on the coast. I built the Great Lighthouse, the Colossus, the Pyramids, and the Great Lighthouse. Thanks to these wonders, I was able to stay fairly close to the AI's tech-wise. Once I realized I was on an island, I pretty much neglected defense. I kept enough fog-busting warriors/axes up to deal with the barbs, but that was it. I met my first AI ~10 turns before I finished Optics. Once I had met most of them, I could see I was 6-8 techs down on most of the AI's. I had Civil Service to offer up though, and a Great Scientist discovered Philosopy for me, so I was able to trade to 1-2 techs down. Once Astronomy came in, most of my cities instantly started pulling in ~18 cpt from trade routes, so I was able to stay competitive in later game research.

My biggest hindrance was a lack of religion. By the time I realized I was on an island, the early 3 were gone. I missed Confucianism by a few turns, then was never close on the last 3. As a result, I was religionless until ~1400 AD when it started spreading to me via trade routes. That pretty well killed any chance of me scoring a cultural victory, which otherwise would have been my best shot. My alliances also didn't work out so hot - one of my 'allies' was 2nd in score, so my competitor for UN elections. I would say that if you find yourself alone on an island, get a religion ASAP and choose your alliances very carefully once you start meeting everyone.

 

[mutax2003]

I too didn't win as the Egyptians on that save game, that Washington guy beat me to the SS victory. However, after reading this thread (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146096), I might give that game one more try. Of course, not been financial might prove to be a challenge.

 

[Rameau's Nephew]

I think that the consensus for alone-on-continent starts is not to develop optics yourself. It's usually better to focus on infrastructure techs (civ serv, philos, div. right, etc.) as AI trade bait, and wait for them to find you. Then trade for Optics, and get Astronomy ASAP to get the foreign trade going.

 

[Oggums]

I've had a few monarch/emperor island starts, and I agree that going for Optics is probably not the best idea. I prefer to concentrate on the top of the tree, skipping military techs and going for markets, aquaducts, civil service...any tech that allows for better growth and commerce.

Once the other civs start showing up in caravels, then I'll start switching hard to military, so they don't drop galleons full of knights on me. On Monarch you should not be too far behind in techs. Trading for a world map and getting Astronomy ASAP is important at this point, so you can start trading resources and get those foreign trade routes.

But I don't go hard for Optics anymore, because I always wound up too far behind in techs.

 

[DeltaV]

How to you keep your people happy in that situation? When that happens to me, I'm always struggling to grow my cities. At Monarch, I have trouble founding a religion even if I beeline for taoism or confusianism. Without the ability to build temples and trade for people-pleasing resources, I can't get my cities much beyond size 7. Do you head for Drama or what?

 

[obsolete]

I've found that bismark and ghandi seems to be dominating when stuck on a smaller continent on Monarch. Usualy you can build just about every wonder by easily keeping one or two cities as mega hammer producers. Only having to worry about barbs lets you cut a lot of corner to keep the edge up. The only problem I have is when another industrial AI is on his own continent. He will nevr go to war with anyone and spend his hammers on 100% enhancements as well. I have paid lots of $$$ to have people go to war on those maps, but hardly do they even bump into each other. And by the time 10 turns is up, they will always declare peace

 

[Oggums]

Hereditary Rule and a bunch of warriors.

 

[Mordraken]

Hmm, IMO if you start on a large continental type island, you could build out cities w/cottages very quickly without "wasting" money on an army. While you lose out on trade & conquest technologies/cities, you gain on being able to develop a very strong infrastructure. For example - if you can build 8 cities in the first 100 turns or so, then ramp them up with cottages and so on, you could get a very solid infrastructure.

I expect that a cultural victory would be a challenge since you would need to spread YOUR religion to everyone else.

The biggest challenge I see is this: For the first 50 or so turns, you don't know you're on an island by yourself, which is time you could have used to build 2-3 more cities. Also knowing to persue religions early comes into play as well.

 

[mutax2003]

Usually I will just chop rush for oracle -> code of law, and find confucianism in most of my games, so religion is not a problem for me.

 

[Grogs]

Hmm, IMO if you start on a large continental type island, you could build out cities w/cottages very quickly without "wasting" money on an army. While you lose out on trade & conquest technologies/cities, you gain on being able to develop a very strong infrastructure. For example - if you can build 8 cities in the first 100 turns or so, then ramp them up with cottages and so on, you could get a very solid infrastructure.

I think it would kill you. 8 cities would probably cost you ~ 50-60 gold for civics + city maintenance. It would be very difficult to produce that much commerce in the first 100 turns, so your military (what little there is) would probably go on strike along with your workers and get disbanded. Worse, you probably wouldn't have any techs that would let you improve the situation by building courthouses, banks, markets, etc and at 0% science it takes forever to get there. Cottages would probably get you out of the hole eventually, but I don't think you'd ever recover what you lost during those turns.

I expect that a cultural victory would be a challenge since you would need to spread YOUR religion to everyone else.

Just the opposite actually. You need everyone to spread their religion to you. The island start means that, unless you're able to found several religions on your own, you probably won't get enough religions for a decent cultural win date until after you discover astronomy, and by that time it's probably too late.

The biggest challenge I see is this: For the first 50 or so turns, you don't know you're on an island by yourself, which is time you could have used to build 2-3 more cities. Also knowing to persue religions early comes into play as well.

Absolutely. If I know from the start I'm on an island by myself, it completely changes my early game.

 

[Mordraken]

Just the opposite actually. You need everyone to spread their religion to you.

Hmm, there's clearly something I don't understand - Does your culture increase regardless of if the religion in your city is YOUR religion or someone elses'? In other words - your objective is to have all six religoins in each of your top cultural cities?

 

[Wodan]

Just the opposite actually. You need everyone to spread their religion to you. The island start means that, unless you're able to found several religions on your own, you probably won't get enough religions for a decent cultural win date until after you discover astronomy, and by that time it's probably too late.

Totally untrue. It's not religions (or lack thereof) that will hurt the most, it's the lack of tech trade, which will make it nearly impossible to get wonders until the late game.

See-- religions (and the all-important cathedrals) you can get later. Sure, you miss out on the holy city buildings, but that is minor. What you need to do is make sure you build Monasteries in at least one city each to 4-5 religions before you get Scientific Method. With that, you can spread all those religions to all your cities. You need to build temples to all religions in 9 cities in order to get cathedrals for each religion in your 3 cities.

World wonders, on the other hand, are too critical to providing base culture. You need them to get a cultural victory, need them badly.

HOWEVER, if you're stuck on an island, it's possible all the AIs are too, in which case THEY aren't trading techs either.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

A good culture victory push will start with each of your 3 cities having maybe 15,000-20,000 culture. At that point, you max out your culture slider, and you can pull in at least 750 culture per turn in each of your 3 cities. Simple math: you have to hold out for 40-100 turns (depending on your game speed) to get your win.

Thing is, if you didn't have a good early culture base, your starting culture is maybe 10,000 -15,000 (instead of 15-20). No big deal, just add another 10-20 turns in the time it will take to win.

OR, instead of starting your cultural push immediately after you get Riflemen, hold off and go get Broadcast Towers (or Eiffel Tower). That'll give you another 50%. Plus, you can go for Hollywood, Rock&Roll, etc.

That's why I say that not having started a religion isn't as critical as it might seem.

Wodan

 

[trundle]

I know this isn't quite the same thing, but I've had some luck with the Aztecs in the Earth 1000 AD scenario (on Monarch), which shares a lot of the same problems. Diplomacy seems to be the way to go.

Also, research techs the AI isn't as fond of researching itself -- Biology, for instance, to trade up for tech parity.