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Alpha testing of v3.4

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    Irkalla has recently found an XML-only way to remove (at least some?) buildings from the city view and also from civilopedia.
     
  2. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    Brilliant!!

    Thank you it works like a charm. Hopefully this means less messy Lua code fiddling.

    Now to setup some SQL to set those variables easily.
     
  3. Spirit7609

    Spirit7609 Chieftain

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    It seems like instant yield buildings have no effect (India's Vedi and Greece's Odeon). Log says:
    Spoiler :
    [1039341.981] Runtime Error: C:\Users\daniel\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\Communitas AI and Tools (v 3)\Tools/Cat_Events.lua:294: attempt to call global 'City_ChangeYieldStored' (a nil value)

    I've tried to include YieldLibrary just to test, got the instant yield, but (in Gandhi's case) still was at +0 faith per turn.
     
  4. Toby.

    Toby. Chieftain

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    The Dutch polder still provides food on flood plains, rather than coastline. Their trade office is not implemented. Looking forward to the Dutch :)
     
  5. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Did we ever have a clear design for exactly what it is supposed to do? It's tough to design without being too powerful, as you'll probably be able to build a lot of them and even a +1 yield advantage is a big deal. The vanilla polder is boring because it can't be built widely enough, but we also have to nerf the yields if we're making it widely buildable.

    My guess is that the design should probably be:
    +2 food. Requires Civil Service tech.
    Buildable only on flat grassland or plains or flood plain adjacent to a coast tile.

    This way, it's basically a farm with freshwater bonus, but it works even without the fresh water on any coast-adjacent tile (which is going to include most tiles on small islands).

    My main question is whether it should also get an extra +1 food at Fertilizer tech, since otherwise it will be identical to post-fertilizer farms. Probably it could have that. Another alternative would be +1 gold at fertilizer: that would help both the Netherlands commercial playstyle, and help to represent their amazingly profitable market gardening industry (the Netherlands is a huge producer of flower and cash crops, with lots of very intensive agriculture, much of it in greenhouses).
     
  6. burningrave101

    burningrave101 Chieftain

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    I think the +2 food starting out is fine but only +1 food or a +1 gold at Fertilizer tech as their only upgrade would make them pretty meh to build outside of just certain locations where your settling cities without any nearby rivers and other fresh water sources because they take longer to construct and the +1 gold may not make that much of a difference later in the game unless you had a large empire with a ton of them built and I know a lot of people prefer to go for a few tall cities since BNW favors that playstyle more.

    Why not drop Polders to +2 food as you said so that they're basically farms with the freshwater bonus on the coast and then at Economics add the bonus of providing +1 production and +1 gold, plus 1 additional gold for each adjacent Polder. That would make for a strong Netherlands commercial playstyle from their farming.
     
  7. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Because that would make them much too strong. Remember that you could be building dozens of these - basically every coast adjacent tile, most tiles on an island. It could easily be 1/3 or more of all the tiles you work.

    At fertilizer, all farms give +2 food, for a 4 yield tile. An extra yield of 1 would be a yield of 5 - or a 25% increase (which then goes through all other gold or food multipliers, like markets, banks, trade routes, tradition policy, etc.).

    Your proposal would have most polders (which would each have 2 adjacent polders) generate +6 yield for an 8 yield tile - a total of +100%. No other UB or UU gives a power that is anything like as strong.

    If the concern is the build time, them bring the built time down. The vanilla build time was designed around a model where you had very few polders but they had large bonuses, so a high build time made sense.
     
  8. Hawawaa

    Hawawaa Prime

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    I cant get to my next turn my north coastal city Shanghai just built another trade ship and I can't build anything which means I cant proceed to my next turn.

    When conquering cities the build icon doesn't disappear. Also only 1 city was I ever ask to choose how to sack it (bug?). I am also not taking happiness penalties for taking cities.

    Other specialist slots in city manager when moused over display extreme numbers.

    Spoiler :
     

    Attached Files:

  9. burningrave101

    burningrave101 Chieftain

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    Well really my concern isn't with the build time but just the fact that the polder is currently very strong on flood plains and marshes making the improvement unique and well worth building at those locations and the proposed changes in order to allow them to be built more often along the coasts would make them no better than a farm for the first half of the game unless your playing on specific map conditions such as small islands or where your first cities are located away from rivers and other fresh water sources which my first few cities on the Communitas map rarely ever are.

    Then for the last half of the game the only difference between polders and a post-fertilizer farm would be +1 gold so unless your someone that typically founds a ton of cities and spams farms all over the coastline I can't see polders being much source of income.

    Also as someone that typically plays with abundant resources turned on how many polders are you really going to build if you take away the coastal tiles with existing resources that need to be improved? Those types of locations away from fresh water are also where I tend to use great persons to build academies, custom houses, and manufactories since I usually have enough food coming in from farms near fresh water.

    If you're going to lower the starting food on the polder so that you can build more of them then I would think it would need to keep something like the current +1 production and +2 gold bonus at Economics or maybe change it to just +1 gold at Economics and then at Fertilizer add an additional +1 food making a polder worth +4 food, +1 production, +2 gold or +5 food, +1 gold at the last half of the game. Either way I think it's gotta provide at least 2 yield more than a regular farm in order to make it worth calling a unique tile improvement.
     
  10. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    No better than a farm with freshwater. Which are in limited supply. You can't only work freshwater tiles. For the midgame, freshwater tiles give 4 yield and non-freshwater tiles give 3 yield. Under my proposal the polder basically turns every coast-adjacent tile into giving the same yield as a freswater tile, which could be roughly doubling the number of 4 yield tiles you can work.

    It could be a very large source of income. Like I said, it's basically a 25% yield increase on 1/3 of your tiles, so roughly a 8.3% increase in your entire economy.

    And yes, the encouraged playstyle would be to settle on coasts and build lots of farms on the coastline - so you can then build villages and mines on any riverside or lakeside tiles.

    I would suggest that this is not the normal way that the game is played, or the way that we should be balancing. It sounds like you are a player who enjoys higher yields in general.

    The Incan terrace farm gives no bonus yield most of the time, 1 bonus yield some of the time, and 2 or 3 bonus yield in very rare cases. You can't build that many mountain-adjacent terrace farms on most games. But you can build very many coast-adjacent polders. 2 yield more than a regular farm on something that you can build a lot of is gamebreakingly strong.
    Remember that many UBs give extra yields of ~3-4 per city over and above the regular building. You're talking about a UI that could be giving +10 or more extra yield per city.
     
  11. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    There is precedent for the bonus yields on a coastal UI, with the Moai back in VEM getting extra culture for adjacent Moai. It would be extremely strong under the current culture economy conditions to do the same (and we should not, or do something else to it if it is too weak).

    For a coastal farm it would be even more ridiculously powerful to provide extra gold or food for such bonuses.

    I'd favor +1/2 gold on polders somewhere (either by default or via tech). But no adjacent effects.
     
  12. burningrave101

    burningrave101 Chieftain

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    What about making it so that polders can be built on flat grassland and plains adjacent to lake tiles as well as the existing marshes and flood plains and just do away with being able to build them on coastline which has no access to fresh water. That would make it so that they're not just spammed everywhere and it would make more sense to have them near lakes than on dry coastline anyway since the Dutch built a lot of their polders to protect lands around lakes. Then maybe you could just leave the current polder yields as is.
     
  13. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    The purpose and flavor of the polder is to represent Dutch coastal reclamation, and for the Dutch to be a coastal empire. Putting them on lakes would favor the Dutch being a land civ, not a coastal/maritime one.

    +1 gold at fertilizer tech would be fine..
     
  14. JT415

    JT415 Chieftain

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    Anyone know when 3.4 beta is being released?
     
  15. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    To quote Blizzard: "It's done when it's done."

    I guess, this alpha version is a treat for the delay that is happening which you can read about on the homepage (here). Just be patient.
     
  16. Hawawaa

    Hawawaa Prime

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    Family matters come first. Remember this is what he does in his free time. Hope the eye surgery turns out good. Updates can wait.
     
  17. Toby.

    Toby. Chieftain

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    ^ Agreed!

    In the meantime, can somebody give me clarification on the Dutch UA?

    Forum leader page +5% :c5gold: per luxury.
    In game description: +5% :c5gold: National Income from each type of Luxury Resource you control or import.

    XML:
    Spoiler :
    <!-- Netherlands
    -->
    <Traits>
    <Update>
    <Where Type="TRAIT_LUXURY_RETENTION" />
    <Set CityGoldPerLuxuryPercent="5"
    CityGoldPerLuxuryBuildingClass="BUILDINGCLASS_TRADING_COMPANY" />
    </Update>
    </Traits>
    <!--
    <Trait_LuxuryYieldModifier>
    <Row>
    <TraitType>TRAIT_LUXURY_RETENTION</TraitType>
    <YieldType>YIELD_GOLD</YieldType>
    <YieldMod>5</YieldMod>
    </Row>
    </Trait_LuxuryYieldModifier>
    -->


    The XML suggests to my untrained eye that the bonus is applied to cities individually, and is based on the number of available luxuries within the city (counting multiples?). This would result in different modifiers depending on the city, with an upper threshold of about 20%.

    The in game description suggests that it is meant to be a 5% modifier to the gross national income per unique luxury, which would cap the bonus at 5 x number of unique types. In this scenario the effective gold modifier to each city is the same.

    Which is it meant to be?

    Edit: Also, I see that the basics of the trade company UB have been implemented in the XML. I suspect the text/pedia sections reference null entries, since those don't appear in the pedia. I have two questions.

    1. Will adding placeholder entries be enough to activate this UB for the Netherlands? Edit 2: I guess an entry like this is required:
    Spoiler :
    <Civilization_BuildingClassOverrides>
    <Row>
    <CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_NETHERLANDS</CivilizationType>
    <BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_MARKET</BuildingClassType>
    <BuildingType>BUILDING_TRADE_COMPANY</BuildingType>
    </Row>
    </Civilization_BuildingClassOverrides>

    2. Do we need to add the entry for +50% trade route range?

    Spoiler :
    <Buildings>
    <Row>
    <Type>BUILDING_TRADE_COMPANY</Type>
    <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_MARKET</BuildingClass>
    <FreeStartEra>ERA_INDUSTRIAL</FreeStartEra>
    <Cost>100</Cost>
    <PrereqTech>TECH_CURRENCY</PrereqTech>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_TRADE_COMPANY</Description>
    <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIV5_BUILDINGS_TRADE_COMPANY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
    <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_TRADE_COMPANY_STRATEGY</Strategy>
    <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_MARKET</ArtDefineTag>
    <ExtraLuxuries>true</ExtraLuxuries>
    <SpecialistType>SPECIALIST_MERCHANT</SpecialistType>
    <SpecialistCount>1</SpecialistCount>
    <MinAreaSize>-1</MinAreaSize>
    <ConquestProb>66</ConquestProb>
    <TradeRouteRecipientBonus>2</TradeRouteRecipientBonus>
    <TradeRouteTargetBonus>1</TradeRouteTargetBonus>
    <HurryCostModifier>25</HurryCostModifier>
    <IconAtlas>BW_ATLAS_1</IconAtlas>
    <PortraitIndex>50</PortraitIndex>
    </Row>
    </Buildings>
    <Building_YieldChanges>
    <Row>
    <BuildingType>BUILDING_TRADE_COMPANY</BuildingType>
    <YieldType>YIELD_GOLD</YieldType>
    <Yield>2</Yield>
    </Row>
    </Building_YieldChanges>
    <Building_YieldModifiers>
    <Row>
    <BuildingType>BUILDING_TRADE_COMPANY</BuildingType>
    <YieldType>YIELD_GOLD</YieldType>
    <Yield>25</Yield>
    </Row>
    </Building_YieldModifiers>


    And would this be a 'bonus' or 'modifier'?
    Spoiler :
    Arabia: <LandTradeRouteRangeBonus>5</LandTradeRouteRangeBonus>
    Harbor: <TradeRouteSeaDistanceModifier>50</TradeRouteSeaDistanceModifier>
    Caravansary: <TradeRouteLandDistanceModifier>50</TradeRouteLandDistanceModifier>


    Also sorry for bringing up things that aren't bugs so much as unfinished sections. I'm also looking for bugs, I swear!
     
  18. Toby.

    Toby. Chieftain

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    Super food and production, after picking Landed Elite. It also seems to have given me a Chinampa.

    Also, check out this the resource + wonder spread in the last screenshot! :eek:
     

    Attached Files:

  19. stackpointer

    stackpointer King

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    The mod shouldn't have modified any policies, though this massive food and production boost seems to have happened to two of the AI in my games. The Celts in my game have a capital just under three times my size, have built the majority of the wonders and are two eras ahead of me.
     
  20. Toby.

    Toby. Chieftain

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    I reloaded a previous save. The result was surprising. The cause wasn't a strange growth modifier on landed elite. It was researching horseback riding animal husbandry. I'm taking before and after screenshots now, but for some reason my screenshot button is immediately exiting the city screen (which it wasn't doing for the previous set of screenshots...). Upon completing the tech, I receive a massive food boost and Chinampa.

    An interesting thing to note is that the 'City Modifier' figure shown under base food is at 75% rather than the 150% that it was in my original screenshot. I'll play a few turns and see if it increases.

    Edit: I take that back. I replayed the save and noticed that the jump ocurred part way through trade this time. So I checked what I had been doing differently; turns out in this instance I had delayed the construction of a plantation on citrus (the one being worked by my capital in the screenshots). Every time the bug occurs, it begins on the turn I finish constructing the plantation.

    Stackpointer, do you think its worth checking whether the celts started near citrus in your game?
     

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