Alterations to the Terra map/gametype, should it return.

[moysturfurmer]

As I recall (I'm on a Civ-incapable macbook at the moment) the barbarians in the New World could tech up to gunpowder, so it wasn't entirely uncommon to have to deal with barbs with guns. Not entirely an accurate representation of initial European encounters with the Native Americans. Now as I understand it, the barbs have their own tech trees in Civ5, so in theory this would be remedied. However that gives rise to other potential problems, given that diplomacy with the barbs ain't really doable. And to be fair, the issue raised by this isn't exactly pressing, I just think it'd be kinda cool.

Say you're a great Old World power. And say you can't be bothered to settle the New World yourself. But Washington figure's he's obligated to settle those virgin lands, you know, being a founding father and all. He's also a potential threat in the domination race, and an American land grab could cost you the game. Since the barbarians would be backwards (pure speculation in regards to the new barb tech tree), he wouldn't be met with the most trying of opposition. Well instead keeping him out of the New World yourself, it could prove interesting to bring up a trade screen with the barbs and trade them the techs/resources needed to generate military units they otherwise wont have. They go all last of the mohiccans on Georgie and he can't settle as much as he'd like as fast as he'd like and you win somehow and that girl you like, the one who works at the Starbucks you go to hears about your endeavors and kisses you on the cheek, smitten.

While trade with barbarians would probably only ever be viable in the Terra gametype, perhaps it can be used the rest of the time to keep them from attacking your cities/improvements (give us 20 gold and corn for 10 turns or we'll bust your nose etc)?

I dunno, just a thought.

 

[Ddude97]

Idea I've been hearing a lot lately, and I agree, simple diplomacy would be ok. However, as there is no tech trading I don't know how well that will work.

 

[Ahriman]

I've always liked the Terra mapscript. But I don't like the idea of diplomacy with barbarians. The distinguishing feature of barbarians is that you can't really use diplomacy on them, and they don't get much economy and are hyper-aggressive. Otherwise, they'd be civs.

If you can't be bothered with colonization, then don't play Terra mapscript.

If you want to frustrate the expansion of other players by helping out their enemies, then play a normal continents mapscript with full Civ factions on each continent, and help out the civs that they're attacking.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Ahriman beat me to it. . . his suggestion sounds like the game you are looking for.

 

[Ddude97]

By simple diplomacy I mean bribing, no tech trading, or unit giving. In other words, if you can pay, you don't have to deal with barbs (perhaps even bribing them to attack your neighbors). Of course, no idea how well this would work, I'm more interested in the latter. I do however, understand what you're saying Ahriman, and see the value in what you are saying.

 

[Ahriman]

I'm sympathetic to the idea of buying off barbarians temporarily. We need more things you can spend gold on.

 

[Ddude97]

Sarcasm? I can't tell, could be either.

 

[Ahriman]

No, not sarcasm. Gold isn't valuable enough in this game; standard strategy is to break even on gold and put everything else into beakers.

We need there to be more useful things you can spend gold on.

See this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=356368

 

[Ddude97]

Gold isn't valuable enough in this game
We need there to be more useful things you can spend gold on.

See this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=356368

I agree!
Thanks for the link.

 

[LDiCesare]

Why not put city states in the New World? You can have diplomacy with them but they won't expand. It should be fairly easy to make such a map script.
It would also be fun to have some trade with the natives rather than just slaughtering them. One could even put an Iroquois city state in the north, an Aztec/Mexico city-state in the middle, and a Peru/Inca city state in the south (depending on civs available to the player).

 

[Ahriman]

Why not put city states in the New World? You can have diplomacy with them but they won't expand.

I like this idea for a Civ5 version of Terra. I hope they do this.

 

[Set]

Why not put city states in the New World? You can have diplomacy with them but they won't expand. It should be fairly easy to make such a map script.
It would also be fun to have some trade with the natives rather than just slaughtering them. One could even put an Iroquois city state in the north, an Aztec/Mexico city-state in the middle, and a Peru/Inca city state in the south (depending on civs available to the player).

If you want inca, aztecs and iroqouis in the new world play civ5's version of earth 18 civs

on topic: I like the idea of putting city states in the new world but I would also like barbarian cities and units to spawn twice/thrice as frequently in the new world but advance slower. eg. in the old world 6 barb cities 2 longbowman each. New world 12 barb cities 4 archers each.

 

[LDiCesare]

If you want inca, aztecs and iroqouis in the new world play civ5's version of earth 18 civs

Actually, it would be nice if they were and were at the technological level of Earth when Europeans met them. But if a player wants to play these civs, he might not like it, and it's unlikely Civ V would go this way. One would have to make it such that either the geography or the lack of civilised neighbours in America would harm the native civiilisations in such a way they are backward enough that they still don't know steel or gunpowder in 1400.

 

[Ahriman]

Actually, it would be nice if they were and were at the technological level of Earth when Europeans met them

It would be very strange to actually require that particular civs started on the New World in a "Terra" script. By definition Terra has no civs in the New World.
Remember too that Terra isn't an Earth map. It has a randomly generated new world continent and old world continent.

One would have to make it such that either the geography or the lack of civilised neighbours in America would harm the native civiilisations in such a way they are backward enough that they still don't know steel or gunpowder in 1400.

You already get this on continent mapscripts. Why would you want to hard-code which civs are "backwards"? Do this in a scenario if you like, or on an Earth map.

 

[Ddude97]

. One would have to make it such that either the geography or the lack of civilised neighbours in America would harm the native civiilisations in such a way they are backward enough that they still don't know steel or gunpowder in 1400.

I agree with Ahriman this is for scenarios and mods, not for a game release.

 

[LDiCesare]

It would be very strange to actually require that particular civs started on the New World in a "Terra" script. By definition Terra has no civs in the New World.
Remember too that Terra isn't an Earth map. It has a randomly generated new world continent and old world continent.


You already get this on continent mapscripts. Why would you want to hard-code which civs are "backwards"? Do this in a scenario if you like, or on an Earth map.

I know Terra is random, I coded an alternate Terra map script myself
I wouldn't want backwards civs. It looks like an entertaining idea at first but as I tried to explain, why even on an Earth map it's unlikely to get New World civs to be backwards: The game mechanics shouldn't let it happen, lest the player end up in a similar situation and lose a game just due to bad starting position.
Still, it would be nice to have inhabitants of the New World with an "adequate" tech level when Old World arrives. These inhabitants could be barbarians or preferably some city states. Full-fledged civs don't make much sense for flavour reason as you point out (not an Earth map) and balance reasons (makes the game too random if starting position alone can cause huge tech gaps in mid-game).

 

[Ahriman]

Still, it would be nice to have inhabitants of the New World with an "adequate" tech level when Old World arrives. These inhabitants could be barbarians

We already have this in Civ4 Terra map; new world tends to be macemen and knights when you arrive. If you only bring a few units, they *will* kill your stuff.

and balance reasons (makes the game too random if starting position alone can cause huge tech gaps in mid-game).

We already have this sometimes in Civ4 continents script and others. Some continents are "good", others are "bad". Good continents are often way ahead of bad continents when they first make contact.

 

[Ddude97]

Hopefully civ 5 will fix this, at least part way.

 

[Ahriman]

Hopefully civ 5 will fix this, at least part way.

Why? Its a feature. If you want a balanced start where no-one is at a disadvantage, then play mapscripts that support that.

Continents maps real history, where different continents developed at different rates.

 

[Ddude97]

True. The reason I like continents is it allows for massive inter-continental invasions. (+it allows widespread use of tactical nukes + subs, a feature I like and use as much as possible)