Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!

[das]

Keep trying to guess...

 

[Dachs]

Could the PoD conceivable move earlier or later, or both?

 

[ThomAnder]

During the revolution Russia attacked ottoman instead of helping austria?

 

[Dachs]

Then Austria would be weaker, not stronger, like it is.

 

[silver 2039]

Austria is not stronger it is weaker. Austria is yellow. The brown is Hungary. It appears they seperated.

 

[das]

Could the PoD conceivable move earlier or later, or both?

Yes, yes, yes...

During the revolution Russia attacked ottoman instead of helping austria?

You mean the Hungarian revolution? No, nothing to do with that...

Then Austria would be weaker, not stronger, like it is.

Well... Its not exactly stronger; although it DID manage to hold on to some of its lands during the "Velvet Divorice" that ended Austria-Hungary soon after WWI.

 

[das]

Austria is not stronger it is weaker. Austria is yellow. The brown is Hungary. It appears they seperated.

Yes, exactly. It is, ofcourse, more stable now, having a more homogenous population. Its union with South Germany was quite beneficient as well.

 

[das]

Come on, it can't be that hard!

 

[Xen]

OOoooo, I got one you guys are going to looooooveeee.... specially you mongol lovers

what if Samu, and the Mongol Deligate tot he west had been successful in convincing Europe to aide the Mongol Hhans in the middle east

need more info; read up children, and learn how the mongols appealed for aide from that same little old decrepid europe of the middle ages that you have wet-dreams over conqoring

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/040223/23rabban.htm

In the spring of 1288 a curious throng packed the Vatican to celebrate Easter and glimpse a visitor from the far side of the world. Rabban Sauma, a Mongolian Christian, had braved a 7,000-mile trek from Beijing. But when he received the Eucharist from the pope, he broke down and sobbed. The crowd's loud amens shook the church.

Sauma was the Mongol Empire's first envoy to Europe, just 50 years after Mongol armies were repulsed at the gates of Vienna. Much of his diaries have survived, giving a unique perspective on the West. "Sauma is a reverse Marco Polo," says Morris Rossabi of the City University of New York, author of Voyager from Xanadu: Rabban Sauma and the First Journey from China to the West. And while Polo set out to find trading opportunities, Sauma aimed to forge an alliance to drive the Muslims from the Middle East. It was "an extraordinary example of early geopolitics," says Rossabi.

A calling. Sauma's mission began as a pilgrimage. Born near Beijing, he was a cleric in the Nestorian Church--now a small sect in Iran and Iraq but then flourishing in China. In 1275, in his 50s, Sauma and a disciple felt the call of the Holy Land. They left for Jerusalem without meeting Marco Polo, who reached the Beijing court of Kublai Khan, the Mongol ruler, about the same time.

Sauma's party crossed the Taklimakan Desert in western China on camels--"a toilsome and fatiguing journey of two months," he wrote. The trip from China to the Middle East took four years in all. But fighting near Jerusalem kept him from visiting, and he lingered in Baghdad.

In 1287 Iran's Mongolian ruler tapped Sauma to lobby Europe's kings for help in conquering the Middle East. Sauma shared mass with Edward I of England, visited King Philip IV in Paris, and stayed at the Vatican. His descriptions of Italy still resonate: It "resembled paradise; its winter was not [too] cold, and its summer not [too] hot. Green foliage is found therein all the year round."

Yet he failed to broker a deal between Europe and the Mongols and returned to Baghdad, where he died in 1294. "If Sauma had been successful, history would have been very different," says Jack Weatherford of Macalester College. "Europe would have ruled Jerusalem and Egypt, and they would not have sailed around looking for a new trade route," he says. In other words, no Vasco da Gama, no Columbus--and a world as strange to us as Europe appeared to Sauma. -Ulrich Boser

I love it, I love it, I love it- the greatest irony that one of the single most prolific NES ideas, or wants by soem players (to have the mongosl conqoure europe) appears to have very much been the last thing on the Mongolian mind, so much so that they appealed for europes aide; and in particuler, that of the Catholic Church. such sweet irony in history dose not often get to be beared

 

[ThomAnder]

That is TOO cool.

 

[Oruc]

Nope!

 

[Dachs]

the mongols couldnt have conquered Europe, i hate it when people say that the mongols would have demolished the European kingdoms easily, stupid peoples deserving of death (or just ridicule).

Then why did Europeans lose at Liegnitz, and and at Budapest? Subotai could have wiped the nascent West out with his toumans of cavalry...That is really cool, Xen.

 

[Oruc]

Nope!

 

[das]

Mongols could not have conquered all of Europe. I suspect that even if they did want to do that, they would have MAXIMUM conquered Poland, Hungary, Germany and France, and even the latter is in question.

And Xen, you do know that for every two Mongol leaders there are three opinions? Some of them wanted to conquer Europe, but after Ogedai's death the Mongols in Europe became more on the defensive.

Don't forget, though, that while the Mongols did beat up several European armies, they were defeated by Mamlukes. I rather doubt that, even with European help (which isn't all that unlikely, at least with certain Europeans, namely Venice), the Mongols - by late 13th century rather stagnant and crumbling, in the Middle East anyway - would have achieved much.

 

[Jason The King]

Wow, that sounds like a cool NES.

 

[das]

Which one? The thing about it is that, much like a COMPLETE Mongol conquest of Europe (not to mention a lasting one), is rather unlikely. The Mongol-Christian armies will need lots of luck to break the Mamlukes, who were, at that time, very strong. Do remember that the Mongols only proposed an alliance to Europe a few decades after their expansion was stopped and after they lost all initiative. The Europeans - or rather, Venetians with possibly the usual band of crusaders - could win a few battles as well, but IMHO they wouldn't stand much of a chance. They should have tried to agree somewhat earlier (with Hulegu) or much later (with Tamerlane).

There's a nice althist, Empty America, where Mongols (some of whom conquered Germany, Hungary and Poland) get the support of the Pope in a "crusade to end all crusades", a.k.a. an invasion of Egypt. Ofcourse, there's much other alternative stuff there (most notably the complete absence of Amerinds, as you might have guessed)...

http://www.althist.com/EA01.htm

 

[Xen]

Then why did Europeans lose at Liegnitz, and and at Budapest? Subotai could have wiped the nascent West out with his toumans of cavalry...That is really cool, Xen.

well, after ye olde Subo, the mongols started to lose- a case of them having brilliant commanders- but not an army that initself was superior to anyother.

 

[das]

Well, it had a superior doctrine as of then. Ofcourse, what was far more important was that their enemies were, at the time, unstable due to the feudalistic system. Not sure about HRE - but the main reason the Russians lost was an utter lack of coordination. Poland, being divided into five parts, was probably not much better off. Hungary was overran as well, but it had too many nearby enemies.

Technically, all truly strong and lasting empires were built when everybody else around them was far too weak. Mongols wouldn't have done as well in Europe had their enemies been more centralized.

 

[ThomAnder]

The mongols had the superior technology, did they not? (referring to cannons and the such) later on the technology advantage was canceled as well...

 

[das]

They did have somewhat superior technology, but doctrine is more important.