Alternate History

pboily

fingerlickinmathematickin
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Feb 27, 2003
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I am working on a piece of alternate history (the bane of the serious historian, I'm told) and would like to share some of my thoughts and ideas, as well as receive some feedback from those in the know.

I will dedicate the next few posts to the geo-political construction of my new world; feel free to chip in with what you see as inconsistencies or if you think you have a better idea.

Ideally, I would like a complete picture of life in this "New World"; as of now, it is mostly centered on North America, but ...
 
Fo any items not seem to follow from previous items? What's the first time you went "as if, is that guy high or something"?
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1776 - The thirteen American colonies (Massachusets, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, Delaware, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia) declare their independence from Britain, and form the United States of America.
1783 - The United States' War of Independence ends with the Treaty of Paris. England cedes Florida to Spain, the southern part of its northern colonies (which will become part of Ohio and Missouri) and recognizes the Mississipi River as the US' western boundary.
1803 - Spain cedes Louisiana back to France, which promptly sells the territory to the USA.
1818 - The USA acquire Florida, Cuba and Hispaniola from Spain.
1820 - The Missouri Compromise sees Missouri and Maine admitted to the Union as free states.
1836 - Texas declares its independence from Mexico.
1845 - California declares its independence from Mexico.
1845 - Efforts by the USA to annex Texas fail.
1860 - The Election of Abraham Lincoln and the Slavery Issue sends the United States into Civil War. The South (Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Jefferson, Louisiana, Cuba and Hispaniola) secedes. Arkansas, Tennessee and Vandalia remain with the Union. The 38 western counties of Virginia join the North and form the state of Blue Ridge. England and France join the conflict on the side of the Confederate States of America.
1861 - The Mormons establish the nation of Deseret near the Great Salt Lake.
1862 - The war goes badly for the USA. Lincoln is assassinated. Attacked from all sides, the USA is forced to sue for peace. It recognizes the CSA, cedes the Oregon country and Massachusets, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Rhode Island and Connecticut to England, which places them under martial law. England then sells the land south of the Columbia River to California. After plebiscites, Arkansas and the eastern parts of Tennesse and Vandalia join the CSA. Blue Ridge remains a state of the Union.
1880 - Martial law is lifted over a pacified New England.
1883 - England divides its American colonies into the British States of America (Vancouver, Columbia, Emerson, New Glasgow, Manitoba, Northern Territories), Canada (King, Ontario, Wisconsin, Michigan, Québec), New England (Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusets, Rhode Island, Connecticut) to facilitate administration.
1885 - The USA partitions the Northwest Territories into 8 new states.
1910-1915 - The Great War rages on in Europe. Allies of England and France send troops overseas. The USA remain officially neutral, but secretly sell weapons to the Entente powers. England and its allies fight the Entente to a standstill, but France is thrown to the wolves. French exodus to the Province of Québec begins.
1917 - Pressured by England, California and Texas abolish slavery. England encourages freed slaves to travel north to the BSA, where they are promised a plot of land to work.
1922 - The CSA government, under pressure to end slavery but unwilling to do so, works out a deal with England. It will free its slaves if England provides the plantations with technology that will facilitate cotton farming. The freedmen who are not needed to work the plantations are deported to Cuba, Hispaniola and Africa.
1924 - Women get the vote in the British Possessions and California.
1931 - Women get the vote in the USA.
1947 - The Province of Québec leaves Canada. The Canadian government turns over control of the St. Laurent Seaway in exchange for free passage and mining rights in the north of the new republic.
1955 - Women and blacks get the vote in the CSA. Segregation still exists in the CSA.
1977 - Segregation is abolished in the CSA.
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I wanted to make Québec séparatisme a viable option earlier than in real life so that's why I assumed a French exodus, but it seems forced. Also, I can't really imagine how Britain and France could have backed the CSA during the Civil War (Harrison's notion doesn't cut it for me...) Finally, even without California, Texas and the South, it's clear that the US are top dog in this Balkanized North America... if my memory serves me right, New Englanders were some of the most rabid patriots during the War of Independence. Can anyone think of a way for New England to become an independent nation without desires to re-join the US as soon as the British forces leave?
 
North America - Pre 1947
na.jpg

North America - States and Provinces
namap2.gif



United States of America
Flags-usa.gif
 
British North America
Flags-bna.gif

Republic of California
Flags-california.gif

Dominion of Canada
Flags-canada.gif

Confederate States of America
Flags-csa.gif

Deseret
Flags-deseret.gif

Atlantic Union of New England and the Maritimes
Flags-newengland.gif

Newfoundland
Flags-newfoundland.gif

République du Québec
Flags-quebec.gif

Russian North America
Flags-rna.gif

Republic of Texas
Flags-texas.gif
 
blindside said:
I for the most part dislike alternate history.
No doubt about it. However, I need some help making it all consistent so I'm asking the serious (*cough* boring *cough*) crowd... ;)
 
pboily said:
Fo any items not seem to follow from previous items? What's the first time you went "as if, is that guy high or something"?
========================================================

1820 - The Missouri Compromise sees Missouri and Maine admitted to the Union as free states.

The Missouri Compromise was specifically set up to admit Missouri into the Union as a slave state (Maine was a free state).
 
YNCS said:
The Missouri Compromise was specifically set up to admit Missouri into the Union as a slave state (Maine was a free state).

Sorry, I should have been clearer. In this timeline, the acquisition of the former spanish colonies means that the slave states were outnumbering the free states before Maine and Missouri joined the Union. With their admission as free states, the numbers would now be even. I imagine that there was some desire amongs native Missourians to have their state be a slave state, but it had to go the other way to preserve equality, hence the term compromise...

That's the main problem, I guess. I've done the math and the consequences are clear in my mind, but I can't write everything in an outline...

thanks for actually reading through, though.
 
if the USA never went to war with Mexico and aquired new territory, one could assume that the Civil War would never happen since there would be no issue about slavery expanding in the territories...

ALso, california didn't have the same number of Americans as Texas and most of the inhabitants were Mexicans.

England wouldn't have joined on the Confederacy's side since they were importing more cotton from Egypt and India and didn't really need the southern cotton as well as their citizen's extreme anti-slavery issues.

France wouldn't have helped the south either since Mexico would have been a much easier nut to crack and conquer and the Emperor Napoleon III would have looked bad in Europe helping a slavery nation.

In other words, this alternate history lacks any concrete foundation to make the alternate history.

Also, Spain wouldn't have given up Cuba and Hispanolia like Florida since there wasn't much need for those offshore territory in the eyes of the American populace and that defending it was a challenge with the small american fleet.
 
if the USA never went to war with Mexico and aquired new territory, one could assume that the Civil War would never happen since there would be no issue about slavery expanding in the territories...
Hit right on the nail... so what other kind of scenario could involve a North/South Civil War?
ALso, california didn't have the same number of Americans as Texas and most of the inhabitants were Mexicans.
It didn't stop California from seceding, though (that part is actual history, not allo).
England wouldn't have joined on the Confederacy's side since they were importing more cotton from Egypt and India and didn't really need the southern cotton as well as their citizen's extreme anti-slavery issues.
How strong was Anti-American sentiment amongst the Brits? What would it have taken to overcome their distaste of slavery and throw in with the Rebels?
In other words, this alternate history lacks any concrete foundation to make the alternate history.
:cry: can no one see a way to save it?
 
pboily said:
Hit right on the nail... so what other kind of scenario could involve a North/South Civil War?

Not sure, probably one about states right.

pboily said:
It didn't stop California from seceding, though (that part is actual history, not allo).

The "sucession" from Mexico were led by John C Fremont and his soldiers under the employ of the American Army as an officer and an explorer. Also, there were a very small population of americans that he drew support from and the majority of inhabitants of California ignored his declaration of independence.

pboily said:
How strong was Anti-American sentiment amongst the Brits? What would it have taken to overcome their distaste of slavery and throw in with the Rebels?

Prior to the Civil War, most Europeans knew nothing about America aside from Mrs. Trollope, Martin Chuzzlewit, and Uncle Tom's Cabin. Most upper class Englishmen tended to side with the South while the British Middle Classes composed of shippers, and manufacturers, friends of democracy and republicanism saw the US as a model to be cherished.

The Leaders of the British labor movement were also on the North's side as they saw the south as the aristocrats and bosses they detested.
 
alex994 said:
Not sure, probably one about states right.
Prior to the Civil War, most Europeans knew nothing about America aside from Mrs. Trollope, Martin Chuzzlewit, and Uncle Tom's Cabin. Most upper class Englishmen tended to side with the South while the British Middle Classes composed of shippers, and manufacturers, friends of democracy and republicanism saw the US as a model to be cherished.

The Leaders of the British labor movement were also on the North's side as they saw the south as the aristocrats and bosses they detested.
Good for the world but not so great for my alternate history...
 
pboily said:
How strong was Anti-American sentiment amongst the Brits? What would it have taken to overcome their distaste of slavery and throw in with the Rebels?

Well a group of british cotton workers who suffered because of the civil war wrote a letter to Abe telling him to carry on the war, Gladstone was so impressed by this action that he strived to allow them to vote ie the 1867 Reform Act. So personally I don't think the Brits would of joined with the CSA especially thanks to the British Ambassador Lord Lyons (i think).
 
Like Alt. history...:) But too much of it is only about WW2, Hitler and American Civil War...and this one seems no different.
 
allhailIndia said:
Like Alt. history...:) But too much of it is only about WW2, Hitler and American Civil War...and this one seems no different.

But I'm also interested in how the rest of the world would react/ could have caused this situation... basically, how could we have gotten to the freakin' map in the second post.
 
pboily said:
But I'm also interested in how the rest of the world would react/ could have caused this situation... basically, how could we have gotten to the freakin' map in the second post.

neigh impossible due to MANY factors involving Californian revolt from Mexico, European interests, economic interests of the states and etc. You should have thought about that before you wrote a bad alternate history that is completely unrealistic....
 
alex994 said:
neigh impossible due to MANY factors involving Californian revolt from Mexico, European interests, economic interests of the states and etc. You should have thought about that before you wrote a bad alternate history that is completely unrealistic....

It`s not like my life depends on the success and or failure of the experiment...

In your opinion, this allo-history is not realistic; you`ve even provided me with specific instances where you feel it failed. While you could learn a thing or five about tact, your responses are exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Now I look to fill the holes, starting with a new Civil War scenario and Californian secession.

(And I won`t lose too much sleep in the process ;) )
 
you sounded like you were desperate <_<
 
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