1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Alternates to Judaism - MODCOMP

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall Modmods' started by fearuin, Mar 5, 2007.

  1. fearuin

    fearuin Born to be Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    436
    Location:
    Forgotten Realm of Galicia
    If you can mod this, I'll start worshipping you! :worship:(And today I've woke up as an atheist ;) ). But we will have to find 3 sects to every religion. It won't be that difficult, but I'm not sure if every religion does have them (e.g. confucionist sects? I only know legalists as their major doctrine...).

    About zoroastrism, I'm still very dubious about it. I know they had a lot of influence, but... this faith has almost died. However, I have a simple idea to make zoroastrism, or, as I proposed earlier, a generic solar polytheism, (I still support this idea) become "fading". It simple: make their missionaries, temples and monasteries obsolete with a certain tech (e.g. Theology, or Divine Right). We can make the religion itself to have a low spreading rate, also. That way, ONLY if you built the holy shrine, it will have a chance to continue expanding, and anyway, it won't do it very much.
     
  2. Che Guava

    Che Guava The Juicy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    5,955
    Location:
    Hali-town,
    Modding this shouldn't be too much of a problem; I just don't have the time...! Basically it could be done in three steps using xml:

    (1) Edit the state religion conditions so that one happiness is added for each 'cathedral' (I'm not sure if temples work this way, but even if there isn't room in the curent structure to do it, there are plenty of competent modders here who can add in a 'building happiness' modifier for each religion xml file).

    (2) Insert a modifier in the xml file for each religious shrine so that it adds 1 happiness in each city with its corresponding cathedral. I'm pretty sure that the yeild modifiers for wonders would allow for this to be done. Alternately, you could mod cathedrals so that they naturally produce 1 unhappiness, but receive 2 happiness if you civ has their shrine. In that way, there is a net -1 happiness if they exist outside your empire and a net +1 happiness if they are within.

    (3) Edit Civic xml files so that 1 happiness is added for each cathedral's favourite civic. This would be similar to the 2 happiness that barracks receive under nationalism. This might cause a bit of odd behaviour (for instance, a Sunni mosque would produce 1 happiness under a catholic theocracy), but given that the civic still matches thier creed would proably be enough to rationally explain that.

    As for sects, I don't think that it would be too difficult:

    Judaism: Orthodox, Reformed, Kabbalah (?)
    Christianity: Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant
    Islam: Sunni, Shi'ia, Sufi
    Buddhist:Theravāda, Mahāyāna, Vajrayāna
    Hinduism: Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism
    Taoism: Quanzhen, Tianshi, Shangqing
    Confucianism: orthodox/traditional, legalist, Neo-confucian

    You can argue over which would be most appropriate and where, but the point is that there is lots of choice.

    THere's plenty of religions that fit a similar description (why hasn't jainism been brought up before?) I propose that these religions be manifested through temples that don't require a religion to be present in the city, dont have missionaries, and can only be built by the civilization that has built thier holy shrine. Like the cathedrals of the major religions, these temples would have thier happiness tied to civics, and would stay after other religions have been established, giving the city a religious/mystical background or imprint. Other religions that might fit in this catagory are: shinto, roman/greco pantheism, druze/alawite sects, shikism, mayan/aztec beleifs (Quetzalcoatlism?) etc etc etc.....
     
  3. fearuin

    fearuin Born to be Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    436
    Location:
    Forgotten Realm of Galicia
    We can make these "extra holy shrines" to be world wonders?
     
  4. Phallus

    Phallus Freudian Slip

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2006
    Messages:
    605
    Location:
    The magical realm of Essex
    We really don't need sects for religions that will always stay small (Judaism or Daoism for example). The whole point of sects was to reduce the "We care for our brothers and sisters of the faith" pact that built up in Europe.
     
  5. Che Guava

    Che Guava The Juicy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    5,955
    Location:
    Hali-town,
    Precisely!

    I certainly think that Taoism is large enough to warrant sects, but maybe not judaism...
     
  6. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,587
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    I think he meant gameplay-wise where it is a one-civ religion.
     
  7. Phallus

    Phallus Freudian Slip

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2006
    Messages:
    605
    Location:
    The magical realm of Essex
    If that.

    .
     
  8. Talkie_Toaster

    Talkie_Toaster I toast, therefore I am

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,011
    Location:
    Oldham, Greater Manchester, UK
    I've found some good evidence in favour of Zoroastrianism:

    Note how there's no specific area that's "converted" to Judaism, only arrows showing the distribution on the Jewish race. Zoroastrianism, however, has quite a large converted zone.
     
  9. fearuin

    fearuin Born to be Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    436
    Location:
    Forgotten Realm of Galicia
    Hey, that is it! I knew it had a name! The religion I meant as "Solar Polytheism" or as "Heliocratic Polytheism" was Mithraism! Good work, Talkie_Toaster! :goodjob: . As you can see from the map, it expanded to all the Mediterranean, the area we want to cover, including Persia. Zoroastrism had a big area of influence, but Mithraism spreaded much more further. And it is not that difficult to think in a Mithraist Rome, for example, though it's very dubious to think in the possibility of a Zoroastric Rome, or Egypt.
     
  10. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,587
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    Hey, Talkie-Toaster, I have the exact same map in a book of mine ;)

    Well, Mithraism might be an ok thing, it was the predecessor of contestant of Christianity. Under most to every Early Christian Church there was a Mithraic Temple (in Rome for example). Further, the "hat of the Pope" is derived from a "Anatolian/Persian/Mithraic" sheperd hat. So, Yeah, it would make sense, BUT Mithraism really came up at the height of the Roman Empire and was spread by it's soldier all around the empire (afaik, it came originally from persia). It is kinda late as a replacement for Judaism, isn't it?

    And Imho it doesn't make sense at all to have Mithraism AND Christianity both at the same time in one city. They were "enemies".

    mick
     
  11. Edungeon

    Edungeon Flying~

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2006
    Messages:
    876
    Location:
    Brazil
    I vote for the Zoroastrianism... because we have all the graphics needed for it ;) .

    If you want I can change Judaism for Zoroastrianism in a couple of hours...
     
  12. Phallus

    Phallus Freudian Slip

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2006
    Messages:
    605
    Location:
    The magical realm of Essex
    To be perfectly honest, I'd prefer Zarathustra over Mithras. Zoroastrianism was well established throughout Persia and though Mithraism was influential, it seems a bit of a waste to use up a slot for what's basically a 'what if' religion.
     
  13. fearuin

    fearuin Born to be Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    436
    Location:
    Forgotten Realm of Galicia
    This is my what if:
    What if Persia becomes early on the centre of religion? Egypt, Greece and Rome, their natural allies, will convert to their religion, start earning those pesky "we like our brothers of faith" diplo bonus and there will be less wars against Persia, what will make them very strong, so they may have a chance to beat Arabs when they come.

    And if you simply "give" a religion to Persia or Babylon (Zoroastrism was founded by 1700 to 1000 BC... before Persia spawns) the result will be on a uber-Babylon in Warlords or an uber-Persia in Vanilla... We all know what advantage is to have an early grab to a holy shrine. The religion replacing Judaism needs to have the chance to be founded on some place different from Persia. That's why Mithraism it's better, from my point of view.
    Mithraism will be founded on 1st century BC, but it may be founded earlier, with a certain tech (Drama? Priesthood? Any suggestions, please). I think Drama it is the best choice, as long as Rome beelines for it, and makes sense, but you can argue.

    The earlier period without religions on the area will mean the reign of paganism. Obviously, to not overpower Rome, Christianity should be coded to be founded either in Constantinople (representing Orthodoxy), Jerusalem (representing an acceptance of the Israeli of the Christian doctrine), or the area between them (the seven churches of Asia). After all, Rome became Holy City AFTER Jerusalem was lost to the Persians. That way, Christianity will have to spread to the Roman Empire, and also there will be a chance for other civs (Greece, Babylon and Persia, essentially) to grab it.

    Here is some reference:
    Wikipedia page of Zoroastrism
    Wikipedia page of Mithraism

    However, I think someone said some time ago that there was still an empty slot for a religion, so we may end to this controversy just adding both, don't you think? :)
     
  14. Whitefire

    Whitefire Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,178
    I have the same problem with Mithraism as I do with Zoroastrism. If you can code Christian and Islam Nations to raze any city they capture with Zoroastrism and Mithraism, then I'd be happy.
     
  15. fearuin

    fearuin Born to be Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    436
    Location:
    Forgotten Realm of Galicia
    And if we give them a number of inquisitor units? Twice of the number of Missionaries, if they get any?
     
  16. fearuin

    fearuin Born to be Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    436
    Location:
    Forgotten Realm of Galicia
    I have checked this wasn't exactly like this. Curiously, the Papacy was founded earlier than the city becoming "holy". Pilgrims started to go to Rome after the Donation of Pepin, in the early middle ages. This is little (OK, not so little;)) time later from Jerusalem being lost to the Arabs, in 638.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Pepin
     
  17. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,085
    Location:
    The North
    About the offor to swap it, I would really apreciate it, I did try myself but I couldn't get it to work (I need more practice). If you did it would be ace :)
     
  18. fearuin

    fearuin Born to be Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    436
    Location:
    Forgotten Realm of Galicia
    I'll try next month, after ending my exams, and some other nasty stuff that's eating most of my free time.
     
  19. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,085
    Location:
    The North
    Thanks :) I would try again but my exams are comming up soon, so I dont get to spend very long playing it, never mind messing with files...
     
  20. GoodGame

    GoodGame Red, White, & Blue, baby!

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    13,725
    I'd vote for as many religions as historically relevant. I would leave in Judaism. Figure that it's missionaries spread by diaspora, but not effectively by conversion (that's realistic); So can it's spread be made especially slow versus other religions (hack)?

    Adding in various pantheons makes sense to me too, as well as Zorastrianism.
     

Share This Page