1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Alternates to Judaism - MODCOMP

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall Modmods' started by fearuin, Mar 5, 2007.

  1. Cethegus

    Cethegus King

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    922
    Location:
    Finland
    I agree with Ekolite. Figuring how fractal and internally disputal Europe has been throughout the centuries, Protestantism would have a lot to offer to the game itself. (While Judaism and Taoism are usually there for no good reason. Two religions for one country? Even Europe isn't that hogging.) Or do you have better suggestion to enrichen the game quality, Krzowwh? Maybe Shintoism or Voodoo?
     
  2. lumpthing

    lumpthing generic lump

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    781
    Location:
    Lumpinium, England
    I am very pro Ekolite's point of view too. It's about RFC-specific gameplay and flavour, not about ranking world religions.
     
  3. Krzowwh

    Krzowwh King

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    784
    Location:
    California
    Taoism is needed to represent the slight tension in China due to the fact that Confucianism is rather secular, which Taoism is quite religious. Also Qin Shi Huang was largely anti-Confucius.
    Judaism could also be used in this way.
    And Hinduism and Buddhism are usually founded by one country.

    Anyways, we have no indication how Protestantism would split in-game. If it is pre-determined, that rather ruins the purpose of the Reformation. And Protestantism isn't as historically tense as Christianity and Islam.
     
  4. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,434
    Location:
    Ireland
    - Not if you give the player choice.
    - I think the Thirty Years' War was a pretty bad time to be German.
     
  5. lumpthing

    lumpthing generic lump

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    781
    Location:
    Lumpinium, England
    @Krzowwh

    I don't think it's important to represent the slight tension in China between Confucianism and Taoism (which never came remotely close to causing a civil war or revolution) when compared to the absolutely bloodthirsty continent-tearing tension caused by the rise of Protestantism!

    Qin Shi Huang was anti-Confucian but he wasn't pro-Taoism. His anti-Confucianism cannot be represented in the game any more than Rome's pagan anti-Christianity.

    How could Judaism "be used in this way"?

    Islam vs Christianity was (probably) more historically tense than Catholicism vs Protestantism but nobody's advocating removing Islam.

    However it is very possible that Protestantism would fail to cause tension in the game. Religions founded late-game when most of the civ's cities already have a religion in every city tend to get ignored. Ideally it would be programmed so that in it's first 50 or so years of existence, Protestantism will extinguish other religions (or just older Christianity) in the cities it spreads too. If this isn't possible then Protestantism will probably make no impact and it would be better to leave Taoism in.

    Another issue would be what name to give to pre-Protestant (i.e. Catholic/Orthodox) Christianity.
     
  6. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,449
    Location:
    Celtia Atrebatia
    Traditional Christianity? To be honest I'd just stick with Catholicism and ignore Orthodoxy. I think that if protestantism would remove Catholicism and vice versa when they spread then it should create the desired tension. Preferably having cities of the wrong Christianity would cause large unhappiness and instability, and idealy both faiths would have quite a high rate of spread. To stop them from taking over the world you could limit their natural spread to cities that already have the opposing faith in them, or cities that belong to a civ with a Christian state religion, further then this can be done through missionaries, who could also be used to remove the opposing religion. This would last until the enlightenment era from when on the two Christianities would simply act like any other two religions.
     
  7. Cethegus

    Cethegus King

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    922
    Location:
    Finland
    Have you taken a look at Panopticon's Protestantism RFC modmod? It has answered most of your questions for a good while already.

    That reminds me of a certain user who opposed giving the Brits a more colony-oriented UP because he wanted to make the Brits be more Communist than they ever were.
     
  8. maus

    maus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    22
    Location:
    Kansas
    Well, you could also keep the original pacing of the religion and just give Judaism a more vague name like 'Henotheism'.
     
  9. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,449
    Location:
    Celtia Atrebatia
    It has to be something well-known and something that was influential in world history. Henotheism is no better then Judaism.
     
  10. Cethegus

    Cethegus King

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    922
    Location:
    Finland
    If it was, you could also argue that Scientology deserves a spot in the religion screen.

    Personally I think Israel and Judaism are represented enough as Independent peoples in Yerushalayim so Judaism itself is replacable.
     
  11. HistoryFan

    HistoryFan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Maine
    Well I think that we should keep the current religions and Zoroastrainism. This was one of the most important religions of the ancient times. it was either Darius or Cyrus, Darius i think.. Who was the first Persian emperor to adopt Zoroastrainism. It had great influences on the Jews and Christians and Muslims. [Christians/Muslims were influenced more indirectly though].
     
  12. Zagoroth

    Zagoroth Prince

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    That same argument could be used to just keep Judaism. That is, since it influenced two of the three most influential religions of the world it is in turn important. I am in favor of just keeping Judaism however.
     
  13. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,449
    Location:
    Celtia Atrebatia
    Yes, it influenced Christianity, but so did Roman Polythesism and European Paganism. Neither of these are in the game, so on that basis why should Judaism be?
     
  14. Cethegus

    Cethegus King

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    922
    Location:
    Finland
    Considering the first remarkable Jewish state after the fall of Judea was Israel in 1948, it's pretty insignificant to have as a political tool in the game. That's what religions are in Civ 4, nothing more.
     
  15. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,434
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ya, until we mod in Israel or Khazars as a playable civ, Judaism is not a diplomatically sound choice.
     
  16. HistoryFan

    HistoryFan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Maine
    You can't not have Judaism in the game. Seeing as how in my opinion[!! OPINION] Islam and Christianity should be considered as sects of Judaism. I don't want to start an argument here so don't ask me why or tell me I'm wrong. Even if you think I am. Anyways, Judaism along W/ Zoroastrainism is one of the most important religions in history [being the 2 first monotheistic religions]
     
  17. lumpthing

    lumpthing generic lump

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2004
    Messages:
    781
    Location:
    Lumpinium, England
    I also see Christianity as a sect of Judaism, maybe Islam. I certainly think Judaism is one of the most important religions in history. But that should not be the criteria by which inclusion in RFC is decided!!

    I love going round in circles; it gives me a feeling of permanent momentum.
     
  18. Cethegus

    Cethegus King

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    922
    Location:
    Finland
    Exactly. By that logic alone, Suomenlinna should be considered a world wonder simply because it's a UNESCO world heritage site. We can't have them all simply because they fill some criterias.
     
  19. Zagoroth

    Zagoroth Prince

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    Well, they are arguing that Judaism did not directly alter human world affairs, even if indirectly it very much so did. I would like to keep Judaism just for flavor. Rhyes and Fall of Civilization acts as a historical simulator, and a fun game. Having Judaism in Jerusalem is historical , having it in lets say France is not. However It is very fun to play as a Jewish France. The game is not supposed to turn out into an exact replica of modern world politics every single game, and it is this randomness that keeps the game fun for me. In that sense I do not care if all of Europe is Jewish. I think if someone wants to make a mod and replace Judaism with some other religion they should, but I am not sure it merited eight pages of posts.
     
  20. Sikandar

    Sikandar Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    397
    So is this project dead?
     

Share This Page