Alternative Difficulty Mod

[looorg]

There are a few weird things I noticed when I run with this mod that I don't seem to notice when I'm running without it so I'm checking here to see if others have noticed them to or if it's just me (since this is the only "weird" or non-standard mod I'm running).

The voting thing was changed, not sure if it's live yet, but there is some really weird voting going on. Such as Civ1 voting against (or well for the other religion) their religion to be the world religion and it was a YES vote (since it was all their votes -- four at the time) for more then could have been bought votes (noticed afterwards it was for all their votes). Only for them in the next vote they vote to repeal what they just voted in as the world religion. So I'm thinking something could be a tad wonky there.

(edit) On the repeal vote another civ spends all their votes to keep the world religion even when it's not their religion but the religion of the their enemies. It's all votes and not just a fraction of the votes. The whole sequence is Carthage suggests Islam to be the world religion (it's their religion), Arabia votes all votes for this with Carthage even tho they are the owner of Buddhism which is a greater (or larger) religion. Islam becomes world religion. The following vote Arabia suggest repeal of world religion. This turn China (who is the head of Taoism) votes with with Carthage to keep the religion as world religion.

Protestantism 27 cities (england) -- chuch, science/2, faith from granaries
Toaism 13 cities (china) -- expanse, +5 yields, thrift
Islam 11 cities (carthage) -- sea, veneration, cathedrals
Buddhism 8 cities (arabia) -- tut, stupa, mastery
Caholicism 7 cities (germany, this is me)
Confucianism 0 cities (england, was Brazil)

Arabia didn't vote for their own suggestion cause they spent all their votes voting against Casus Belli even tho they are at war with multiple nations. I'm starting to think they are all doing hard drugs. /edit

Other things might not be the mod but other things but I seem to have lost of a lot of notifications -- a spy was killed and I was not notified. I only noticed it the following turn when it said there was a replacement spy. Also units have gone missing without being killed or at least there was no notification of them being killed (not disbanded due to economical issues since gold is now more or less a non-issue once you get an era or so into the game). So they are just gone. Also the AI keeps building a crapton of siege units that the have on their front line -- but then they have done that for quite some time. It's possibly just a lot more noticeable now that they have even more units then before.

At least the weird trade-bug seems to be gone where traded strat resources (iron, horses ...) was not properly returned once the deal was over.

Beyond this as a balance mod I think it's doing fine. It's like deity normally is. Things are ok, then the AI push ahead and then you return to normal again when spying comes about. Have not seen the AI really push away after that again. It somewhat unfortunate perhaps that this really put the emphasis on super-defensive wars even more then before. Small melee front and then a massive amount of ranged to just pick off the zombiehorde that smashes against you turn after turn. There is so many units that you can't really help but to lose some units here and there since the AI in that regard is suicidal and unrelenting. Still very interesting.

 

[Milae]

Okay thanks for feedback man.

Could you send me any savefiles from the WC stuff please? Obvs that doesn't sound intentional but it could be possible without bugs depending on people's relationships. I think I can guess why it happened and how to stop it actually. I'm guessing Arabia either liked Carthage or hated all the other civs with religions so voted it to help Carthage/screw others even though they didn't like it individually. The repeal Proposal was just because they disliked it individually.

Stuff outside of WC or difficulty ain't gonna be my changes but the dll was slightly newer than march 2nd so could have the trade deal fix. Spy thing was there before I believe though I just assumed I'd missed the notification when it happened to me before.

On difficulty I kinda agree but I doubt I could put the era scaling up much more. I might try to reduce the unit spam a bit but obvs that would make them weaker/slower generally.

 

[looorg]

I wish I could but I'm very bad at making saves, I just run Civ5 in the background all the time and then just leave it there when I go do other things so I might save like once or twice per day. I'll try and keep it in mind for next time (or next game) if it happens again.

It's not that a scenario couldn't be thought up for where it's possible. They might have just really really liked each other or hated the other people in the world to much. I don't recall exactly how the situation was at the moment. But when it's repeating just with new actors it's a bit odd. What is then more odd is that England just doesn't put an end to it cause they have more votes then anyone. But then they don't share a continent so they might not care all that much. Still lets see if it is perhaps just me or someone else has similar issues. I'll try and make more saves.

I can't rule out that I missed the notification but it's very unlikely. It's BIG and RED and says SPY KILLED. So you tend to notice it. Even with all the notification spam going on. Also it shouldn't get truncated like some of the other notifications unless there is some same turn spy massacre.

 

[Rean]

I've had a similar thing happen with Indonesia fully supporting a different religion than his own, they were friends too. Also had Germany (or the Statecraft Civs) not care about city state sanctions at all which seems kinda weird.

 

[stii]

Okay thanks for feedback man.

Could you send me any savefiles from the WC stuff please? Obvs that doesn't sound intentional but it could be possible without bugs depending on people's relationships. I think I can guess why it happened and how to stop it actually. I'm guessing Arabia either liked Carthage or hated all the other civs with religions so voted it to help Carthage/screw others even though they didn't like it individually. The repeal Proposal was just because they disliked it individually.

Stuff outside of WC or difficulty ain't gonna be my changes but the dll was slightly newer than march 2nd so could have the trade deal fix. Spy thing was there before I believe though I just assumed I'd missed the notification when it happened to me before.

On difficulty I kinda agree but I doubt I could put the era scaling up much more. I might try to reduce the unit spam a bit but obvs that would make them weaker/slower generally.

I wonder if the AI could just get even more promotions rather than more units?

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I wonder if the AI could just get even more promotions rather than more units?

Just have the mod split into 2 options, with the second being identical to the original except for having lower % bonuses to unit production.

 

[Milae]

I wish I could but I'm very bad at making saves, I just run Civ5 in the background all the time and then just leave it there when I go do other things so I might save like once or twice per day. I'll try and keep it in mind for next time (or next game) if it happens again.

It's not that a scenario couldn't be thought up for where it's possible. They might have just really really liked each other or hated the other people in the world to much. I don't recall exactly how the situation was at the moment. But when it's repeating just with new actors it's a bit odd. What is then more odd is that England just doesn't put an end to it cause they have more votes then anyone. But then they don't share a continent so they might not care all that much. Still lets see if it is perhaps just me or someone else has similar issues. I'll try and make more saves.

I can't rule out that I missed the notification but it's very unlikely. It's BIG and RED and says SPY KILLED. So you tend to notice it. Even with all the notification spam going on. Also it shouldn't get truncated like some of the other notifications unless there is some same turn spy massacre.

Well hopefully it will be sorted now anyways. Proposal allocation will now use the exact same values as vote allocation so the Arabia situation shouldn't happen.

And they won't do double negatives on World Religion and some other proposals where they were essentially trying to block civs they don't like from ever getting a world religion by voting through a different one.

 

[Stalker0]

I wish I could but I'm very bad at making saves, I just run Civ5 in the background all the time and then just leave it there when I go do other things so I might save like once or twice per day. I'll try and keep it in mind for next time (or next game) if it happens again.

What I do is I turn on Autosaves and keep the last 10 or so. That makes sure I never miss anything (and saves my bacon when crashes occur!)

 

[looorg]

Well hopefully it will be sorted now anyways. Proposal allocation will now use the exact same values as vote allocation so the Arabia situation shouldn't happen.

And they won't do double negatives on World Religion and some other proposals where they were essentially trying to block civs they don't like from ever getting a world religion by voting through a different one.

I included a couple of saves for last nights game. It's not the same game as before. If you want to try out the voting. It's kind of odd cause everyone voted for themselves as host. Nobody voted for anyone else. So it's more like a vote-list. I didn't get the same AI support for my world religion as the AI did. I guess nobody likes me ...

Requires VP, the latest difficulty mod, map script v10, Unique components, some visual mods (are probably not needed) and the mod to increase city workable range and distance between cities (forget the name but it's on steam)

(edit) The Voting. (Germany 8, Poland 7, India 6, Otto 6, Aztec 5, Byzan 4, Russia 4, Arab 3)

Treasure fleet (passed 1 vote)
World religion (failed, I voted against 5 votes, India spent 0 votes on their own suggestion)
Sanction Germany (passed, votes below ...)

Everyone else blew their entire voting allowance for sanctioning Germany. Even nations I'm friends with, have defensive pacts with (Monty, Arabia ...). Poland used all their votes (I understand this one, they really hate me, long wars, I burned down their cities etc). 6 from otto (same deal, minor wars, I burned down a forward settle from them on my island -- what did they think I would allow a city 6 tiles from my capital ...), aztec 5 votes (we are friends! have never had any real wars or anything), Byzantium (minor wars, nothingn special), Russia 4 votes (only minor sea battles around Stuttgart that never amounted to anything). India spent 6 votes against, I only spent 2 votes against cause I didn't want a Hindu world religion and I also spent 1 vote on Treasure fleet (which was all it took to enact it).

 

[looorg]

I found some more oddities, or should we just call them voting irregularities?, such as the AI completely under valuing World Projects? They suggest them but they never vote for them. I have now been able to pass both Treasure Fleet and Worlds Fare by just putting one vote in them. The AI seems utterly focused on just squabbling and suggesting something only to repeal it the next go around (so they are just like the UN?). The last few votes now have been to open door to a city state only to remove it by the next vote (Yerevan in this case). I'm tempted to just conquer the city-state just so I won't have to see it flip or come up anymore.

 

[Milae]

Okay sounds like I made the AI a bit too human I I'll put some max values on things such as ongoing deal values (considered for sanction) and influence levels (considered for Open Door and Sphere), sounds like they are outweighing other things.
Edit - Open Door was bugged when being considered for a city-state with no ally

Repealing the proposal they just voted in won't happen in new version.

 

[Milae]

I found some more oddities, or should we just call them voting irregularities?, such as the AI completely under valuing World Projects? They suggest them but they never vote for them. I have now been able to pass both Treasure Fleet and Worlds Fare by just putting one vote in them. The AI seems utterly focused on just squabbling and suggesting something only to repeal it the next go around (so they are just like the UN?). The last few votes now have been to open door to a city state only to remove it by the next vote (Yerevan in this case). I'm tempted to just conquer the city-state just so I won't have to see it flip or come up anymore.

Treasure Fleet valuation was bugged too lol. Not even my fault this time.

 

[looorg]

The thing where they only voted for themselves for host seems to have changed once Ideology was introduced. Now they voted according to party lines instead -- such as the Freedom crowd picked on Freedom AI and all voted for it.

To be clear regarding the World Projects. They suggest them, but never vote for them. Always some other suggestion that sucks in all the votes. But they do work on them tho once they are passed (by my one vote). So they are not ignoring them once they are a fact and in progress.

 

[Milae]

The thing where they only voted for themselves for host seems to have changed once Ideology was introduced. Now they voted according to party lines instead -- such as the Freedom crowd picked on Freedom AI and all voted for it.

To be clear regarding the World Projects. They suggest them, but never vote for them. Always some other suggestion that sucks in all the votes. But they do work on them tho once they are passed (by my one vote). So they are not ignoring them once they are a fact and in progress.

Okay nice. I think some of the stuff with World Projects is because they know that it will also benefit other people as well as them so it ends up that they don't feel strongly either way. Also other proposals being too highly scored and slight bug with Treasure Fleet.

I've done quite a few updates so if you wanna use this newer version it should all work better. It will work with your savefiles also.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Okay nice. I think some of the stuff with World Projects is because they know that it will also benefit other people as well as them so it ends up that they don't feel strongly either way. Also other proposals being too highly scored and slight bug with Treasure Fleet.

I've done quite a few updates so if you wanna use this newer version it should all work better. It will work with your savefiles also.

With your diplo changes being included in the impending new version, how will it affect this modmod? Can I still use this, or should I wait for you to update again?

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Finished a game with the v2 hotfix (the old one, not the one Milae posted yesterday) as the Netherlands, lost to a science victory by Babylon (if Babylon hadn't won, Ethiopia would, they were neck and neck). Deity, standard, Oval map, no ancient ruins, no tech trading, no RAs, no events.

I started to the south of Russia, with Ethiopia northwest to me and Sweden to the west (but with a small bay between myself and Sweden). Nothing to the east and south. Other civs were Poland, Songhai, Mongolia.

I took Progress, managed to found 4th with Goddess of festivals (Holy Law, Orders, Pagodas, Syncreticism). In total I had 5 cities, Russia had 4 (then conquered Malacca), Ethiopia had 5. I forward settled Russia, which soon led to a DoW, but I had excellent defensive positioning of my cities, so I held my own against the Knights onslaught even with swordsmen and spearmen. Sweden occasionally attacked, but due to the bay between us it never became a real problem. Eventually my catapults/trebuchets got the range promotion and by beelining military techs I was able to conquer all of Russia by the mid-renaissaince era. I eventually annexed all 5 cities, so I had 10 fully operational cities. At that point I was finally able to reform, picking to the glory of god. After progress I took two authority policies (opener and the one giving science on kills) because I saw that there will be lots of killing of Russian units. After that I took 4 fealty policies, then the full Rationalism. Then I took two Autocracy policies (lebensraum and industrial military complex), stole a bunch of territory from Ethiopia, managed to found a great 11th city with a colonist (immediately sent two food IRs, it grew to 25ish population in around 30 turns). At that point I could have gone for the jugular against Ethiopia, but I wanted to see if I could win peacefully, so I instead took the whole Industry tree instead of continuing with Autocracy and warfare. Babylon and Ethiopia both had 5 cities, both went Tradition, Artistry, Rationalism, Orders. At the end of the game they had around 14 more techs than an 8 city Poland empire, 22 more than a 12 city Sweden empire and 2 techs more than myself. I think I could have won the game with a SV because I had tremendous amount of faith (over 300 per turn) so I was able to buy a lot of GSs and with the science process and all specialists I was making around 5500 science per turn, but Ethiopia at one point became influential with all civs so I had to switch to culture processes and buying great writers just to stop them winning a CV, and that was the end for me.

@Milae , I don't know if the problem is with Ethiopia/Babylon as two civs that are major runaway threats in a peaceful game, but I was falling behind in science with 11 cities working full science (process and specialists) and 13 of my trade routes producing 40-50 science each, while they each had only 5 cities. My spies showed their capitals were only making around 300-400 science per turns, while Amsterdam had around 950 science per turn, and with my polders and huge cities my other cities were far outsciencing their non-capital cities. It really got me thinking of just how much bonuses they get that the only way I could keep up or catch up was through GS. But the main problem was Ethiopia's tourism, a great musician by Ethiopia generated 200 thousand tourism at one point when it came to my lands, that's just absurdly broken in my opinion. Also, of my 220 citizens, I had 180 boredom, despite having lots of polders and villages (both giving culture) and working all cultural specialists and all non-capital cities following Ethiopia's religion with the Faith of the masses reformation belief. I cannot fathom why I had so much boredom! This of course led to an obscenely high tourism modifier for Ethiopia.

Regarding world congress, I saw the World fair get shot down 3 times, the proposal was voted against or ignored by some civs that were quite behind in policies, so that was a head scratcher. I only saw one proposal of sanctions (against a mediocre Songhai empire), even though the game was calling for a sanction proposal against two runaways in Ethiopia and Babylon, and I was surprised no one proposed a travel ban even though Ethiopia was doing so well tourism-wise. Also, no one proposed any ban luxury sanctions, even though it could have hurt the runaways a lot by denying them a chance for a corporation, so perhaps that's something to put more emphasis onto.

Great mod! If you need any screenshots or saved games, let me know! I'll give this game another spin to see if it were any different had I not tried for a peaceful victory.

 

[Milae]

With your diplo changes being included in the impending new version, how will it affect this modmod? Can I still use this, or should I wait for you to update again?

So you will still be able to use it but you won't actually get any of the DLL changes from the new VP patch if you are using this mod.
I'll probably update it in a week or two once the patch has been bugfixed.

Finished a game with the v2 hotfix (the old one, not the one Milae posted yesterday) as the Netherlands, lost to a science victory by Babylon (if Babylon hadn't won, Ethiopia would, they were neck and neck). Deity, standard, Oval map, no ancient ruins, no tech trading, no RAs, no events.

Sounds like an interesting game man. Tbh the AIs do seem weirdly good at being ahead while not having everyone hate them and therefore vote stuff against them. Perhaps some of the proposals were being outweighed by other things as well though. On the World's Fair, the higher culture civs actually would have valued it more because of the culture boost which does more for Civs with higher culture per turn. Maybe the free policy should be higher valued by lower policy civs tho...

I don't think that the ban luxury stops corporations? On corporations tho always go for the food one if you can, it would have stopped all the boredom, though it is crazy that you had so much.

Tbh it sounds like Babylon/Ethiopia were helped by not having to much space so they only kept low amount of cities. In quite a few games I've seen AIs doing well but then just tank their Tech and Policy rate by settling every spare bit of land. Their benefits are pretty insane lategame tbh but they kinda have to be because people can use GPs and processes and play around win conditions so much better. They don't get any bonuses to Tourism though so wp to Ethiopia for getting it done!

 

[looorg]

The new version seems to have fixed some things. They are now voting for world projects (space station) but it didn't pass, so some of them didn't want me to win it with just one vote. They went all in for the Wargames the vote after that. They even suggested UN but it took two tries to get it to pass -- some AI even voted against that to even tho it was the random victory condition. Now the issue was more that they don't really work on the projects very much -- but it could be that they know they are not going to win, due to me being number one in production and having won every single world project, but they don't even put in effort to get to the minimum levels. They literally invest zero production into some of them. Which is a tad odd.

It was a massive pain to get rid of the sanctions they put on me after the second congress, didn't break out of until congress 5 or 6 and that sort of messed with the entire game and it's now sort of stuck and sucky as the AI all had massive tech and culture gains from trading and such while I was stuck and then to make it worse the new peace system really sucked (the one where I'm at war civ1, they pact with civ2, I peace out civ1 and I can't now declare war on civ2 cause they are in a pact with civ1 and I can't break the peace deal I have with them ... god that sucks so much -- i'm not a fan but it's unrelated to the mod). I guess it's somewhat of a drawback for the AI to cause they can't declare on me due to similar reasons and setups so it's the world "stuck in peace mode" due to excessive defensive pacts that nobody really wants to be in cause the denouncements are constant but nobody can do anything about it.

It's kind of weird tho how I fell behind Arabia that just piled on the techs (to a 10 tech lead again -- but with rationalism, bletchly and later the firewall there is sort of no offensive spying you can do when stealing a tech is estimated to take 2500000 turns ...) but nobody wants to sanction them (I suggested it three times and was shot down every single time), it took ages to get rid of the world religion that wasn't mine even tho it was giving Poland a massive amount of extra votes. So it really only benefited them and nobody else but they still kept it around. You do get the feeling of hate the player, hug the AI or how they are all conspiring against you even tho they hate each other and are warring each other all the time. They did become more diversified and didn't do that city-state open/repeal cycle but then now there are only two city-states left in the world cause all the others have been conquered (or absorbed if you will). So it might be that to.

Was going to try the new patch but it seems to be just CTD so I guess there might be room for another game.

 

[looorg]

I had to turn this off for the latest patch as I'm getting glitchy UI issues if I have it enabled. Such as the Workers doesn't show the various action buttons, some leaders (once I'm at war with) hide all the button on their picture screen etc.

 

[Milae]

I had to turn this off for the latest patch as I'm getting glitchy UI issues if I have it enabled. Such as the Workers doesn't show the various action buttons, some leaders (once I'm at war with) hide all the button on their picture screen etc.

It actually worked fine for me using v2 with 4-16 patch. Did you choose 43 civs VP version or something like that?

Anyways hopefully v3 works.