Alternative history: Yugoslavia
- Thread starter innonimatu
- Start date
armed rebellions are always legitimate...
for the rest, ah whatever, life is too short
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Lolwut?
"I do not have the knowledge or ability to issue a counter-argument to these points, therefore I will imply that I have better things to do, which, if true, would have prevented me from making this post in the first place."
the fact that quasi state controlled by bosnian Muslims did not meet all of those/any criteria is irrelevant for our discussion
the fact is (documented) that there was clear intent on the part of the leadership to make:
a) BIH Muslims more muslim and infuse them with "lost faith"
b) BIH as a state dominated by mentioned above
would it be a problem if the whole system of government remained communist? after all, that would be the same as it was in the SFRJ... so, why change it?
just because something existed in SFRJ, it doesn't mean it's positive
the fact is that BIH is composed of three separate nations, of three different cultures, religions and nations
decentralization of all functions of the state, starting with local governments, education, etc. was a necessity in order for the state to survive
in reality, BIH Muslims refused that hoping to solve the problem by outbreeding everybody else
and that policy is in place to this day (hint, one of many: Tuzla)
invoking UN is a childish argument, and not really supported by international law until very recently(based on contradictory premises) and that only because of muscle western governments are occasional willing to put being UN
see above
care to comment on your false statements and Miloević worship i've discredited in my first post on this thread?
NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
>Calling a state with international recognition quasi
>Implying criteria is not necessary yet still calling it an islamic state
>The government was already decentralized because of the Yugoslav system. You are implying that regions and municipalities did not have any power when infact it was quite opposite. Another point being the Serb parties left the parliament, they refused to negotiate.
>Implying three different nations live in Bosnia. Bosnia only has one nationality that is Bosnian and Herzegovinian. There are three ethnicities and religions yes, but they all are Bosnian.
>Implying we already aren't decentralized enough.
>Implying that Tuzla hasn't been a muslim majority town since Austro-Hungarian census times and that there is some agenda to breed out everybody...I mean every Bosnian household has 20 children people! [Yet I happen to be an only child]
>Implying that calling on super-national organization and international recognition means nothing while your own judgement means alot.
>Implying there is a contradiction, it is simple, they voted and accepted Bosnian into the UN giving it a seat and full recognition
>Implying China and Russia dont have any say or Veto
>Implying western governments could easily force the UN to support some Bosniak agenda and independence while it could not force it to vote for war against Iraq
>I read the previous post of Lord Baal and your rebatule. I lol'd
>Hates EU, defends war efforts that led to the death of thousands on each side, quasi-nationalism over 9000
>mfw
not quite true
dictionary definition of fascism...
not implying, observing
no, stating that huge Tuzla area has large populous parts populated by Croats alone, and those people are now for 20+ denied their right of selfgovernance on the grounds of equality and multiculturalism
this is getting repetitive and boring...
so did I, and the guy
a) doesn't have the facts or lies
b) is biased and makes excuses for Miloević etc.
despises is the better word...
NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
1. It is.
2. Let us look at the dictionary definition of facism
You do realize that by your logic every nation in the world is fascist. The UK is fascist because ethnic pakistanis are British Nationals or the Germany is fascist because ethnic turks that are citizens of Germany are German nationals and etc.
3. Not exactly huge as you say. I know Catholics from Tuzla. I've been to Tuzla hundreds of times, I live close to it. I know the demographics, compared to a biased guy from Croatia. They are not denied the right of selfgovernence. A Catholic can candidate himself for the position Mayor of Tuzla, he can vote, he can be employed at the cantonal or municipality level (as countless are). I see nothing wrong.
4. Implying you can actually rebuttal and that it is THAT boring
5. I said I lol'd, not picked sides.
6. tfw
No. You've got me; there is absolutely no possible defence for my blatant and undeniable worship of Slobodan Milosevic. You are absolutely correct in everything that you say; my argument is demonstrably and irrefutably false, as you have repeatedly shown to us here in this thread. I can only beg for forgiveness from you, while tearfully rubbing myself with a framed portrait of my long-dead love, Slobodan Milosevic.
I am now rubbing myself with this iPad.Funny
TheLastOne36
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2007
- Messages
- 14,045
Why do we keep making the Serbs out as the bad guys? 
If you are reading this thread, chances are, you've seen this map of serb occupied territory in Croatia (so called Republika Srpska Krajina):
But you've probably didn't see this one:
What the map shows is maximal extent of JNA conquest in Croatia (specifically western Slavonia) at the start of the war in 1991. Period and place is significant because JNA is on the verge of cutting Croatia in half with the conquest of town Virovitica and the road Gradika (on the border with BIH) - Virovitica. Well, not really in half, Croatia was on the werge of cutting in four disconnected parts, and area east of the shown occupied area (Slavonia) was to be overrun by the JNA.
Series of offensive operations started by the Croats in late 1991. stopped that. And western Slavonia specifically became the greatest Croat victory in the early war. With the operations Otkos 10 and Orkan '91 Serbs lost western Slavonia. Or to be more precise, JNA as a whole, because conquest (of western Slavonia) at the time was JNA operation, JNA lost.
Because JNA lost, in December of 1991. there was a peace treaty in Sarajevo. With that peace treaty, among other things, JNA stopped further attempts of conquests in Croatia. More importantly, the whole paradigms shifted on all sides. Croats knew they will survive. Muslims started their ill prepared attempt to break of Yugoslavia, now they knew it could be done. And Serbs, Serbs didn't trust the Muslims anymore.
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What is interesting about westerns Slavonia thou, is the following:
Who was attacking it?
Lord Baal would have you believe some Serbian nationalists in Croatia rioted, and that was it. NedimNapoleon would have you believe... the same.
But no. Western Slavonia was a sparsely populated area, area populated mainly by old people, and you simply couldn't raise an army there. Sure, there were serbian irregular units there slothering children, burning houses, and so on...
But where did the army came from?
Certainly not from other parts of Croatia, Serbs there had their own "riots". And certainly not from Serbia, Serbs there:
a) had trouble mobilizing,
b) were trying to take Vukovar.
No, the army came from a county where there were no troubles with mobilization. From a town called Banja Luka, today capital of "Republic of Serpska", and a huge military headquarters back then. Putting aside really interesting fact that BIH attacked Croatia in 1991., who volunteered and was mobilized in that army? Who would do such a thing?
Serbs for one, obviously. But also... bosnian Muslims, in huge numbers. It may sound strange, but remember, that was before JNA lost. Paradigms didn't shift yet.
Now, isn't that interesting?
But you've probably didn't see this one:
What the map shows is maximal extent of JNA conquest in Croatia (specifically western Slavonia) at the start of the war in 1991. Period and place is significant because JNA is on the verge of cutting Croatia in half with the conquest of town Virovitica and the road Gradika (on the border with BIH) - Virovitica. Well, not really in half, Croatia was on the werge of cutting in four disconnected parts, and area east of the shown occupied area (Slavonia) was to be overrun by the JNA.
Series of offensive operations started by the Croats in late 1991. stopped that. And western Slavonia specifically became the greatest Croat victory in the early war. With the operations Otkos 10 and Orkan '91 Serbs lost western Slavonia. Or to be more precise, JNA as a whole, because conquest (of western Slavonia) at the time was JNA operation, JNA lost.
Because JNA lost, in December of 1991. there was a peace treaty in Sarajevo. With that peace treaty, among other things, JNA stopped further attempts of conquests in Croatia. More importantly, the whole paradigms shifted on all sides. Croats knew they will survive. Muslims started their ill prepared attempt to break of Yugoslavia, now they knew it could be done. And Serbs, Serbs didn't trust the Muslims anymore.
-------------------------------------------------------
What is interesting about westerns Slavonia thou, is the following:
Who was attacking it?
Lord Baal would have you believe some Serbian nationalists in Croatia rioted, and that was it. NedimNapoleon would have you believe... the same.
But no. Western Slavonia was a sparsely populated area, area populated mainly by old people, and you simply couldn't raise an army there. Sure, there were serbian irregular units there slothering children, burning houses, and so on...
But where did the army came from?
Certainly not from other parts of Croatia, Serbs there had their own "riots". And certainly not from Serbia, Serbs there:
a) had trouble mobilizing,
b) were trying to take Vukovar.
No, the army came from a county where there were no troubles with mobilization. From a town called Banja Luka, today capital of "Republic of Serpska", and a huge military headquarters back then. Putting aside really interesting fact that BIH attacked Croatia in 1991., who volunteered and was mobilized in that army? Who would do such a thing?
Serbs for one, obviously. But also... bosnian Muslims, in huge numbers. It may sound strange, but remember, that was before JNA lost. Paradigms didn't shift yet.
Now, isn't that interesting?
Attachments
An honest question:
How exactly did Croatia manage to create a standing army to fight off the serbs who already had a decent army? Around the time of the yugoslav wars there were loads of rumors that Austria (ie its parent, Germany) effectively donated an army to Croatia. I would be interested in knowing about this issue...
NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
You do realize that Slavonia is a lowland area. You do realize that it had a larger population density than Bosanska Krajina (The above Banja Luka and around). You do realize that there were 581,663 Serbs in Croatia according to the 1991 census. That is enough to start and maintain a rebellion. The are around Knin is more sparsely populated than Srpska Krajina (the Slavonian parts) and that most manpower came from there.
Bosnia wasn't a country in 1991 and thus could not have attacked Croatia. What was left of Yugoslavia...sure, but Bosnia on its own directive lolno.
Yes there were volunteers from the Orthodox Bosnian population.
YNA can't mobilize Serbs from Serbia, but easily mobilizes Bosniaks....pure logic. You do realize that in 1990 there was a great purge of the YNA. By purge I mean all non-Serb military members were sacked. Sending Bosniaks into Croatia to fight a Serb cause via the YNA is the dumbest most idiotic thing one could do. You do realize the liability of having several units (so numbers in thousands) of people who will go to war with you in a few months fight for you and learn from you and get guns from you. Seriously knez....wearing a tinfoil hat too much?
No its not. You prove nothing. You are a disgrace. A keyboard warrior who everyone is conspiring against the ubermensch of Croatia and that my own opinion is what matters and my country has the right to do anything. Its because of such people the balkans will never develop. Totally ignoring reality, totally ignoring the logical, whats important is that your people can never make mistakes and when they fail its a conspiracy by western powers. If you plan on continuing with such rants that any thompson fan or stromfront member would enjoy please go to their (un)respected sites. Hats off.
An honest question:
How exactly did Croatia manage to create a standing army to fight off the serbs who already had a decent army? Around the time of the yugoslav wars there were loads of rumors that Austria (ie its parent, Germany) effectively donated an army to Croatia. I would be interested in knowing about this issue...
it didn't really, even in 1993. with Maslenica it was a still mess
it was a mess of epic proportions in the beginning, mostly some smuggled arms (from Hungary mostly, Germany, Russia and other suppliers came in later) and volunteers and "volunters" organized at county levels, with most of the major cities having JNA garrisons in the city centers
fore expample, western Slavonia was taken back in the first place because JNA garrison in Varadin surrendered to the city and volunteers "sieging" it, and we sow some real weapons and tanks
but back then we had incentive, if JNA led serbian paramilitias to your village, you know they were coming to kill you
JNA on the other hand had no incentive
sure, leaders like Kadijević may have been pro war, but its a different thing when you are mobilized in central Serbia and sent to kill a guy in a bunker on a hill in the middle of nowhere
(or in Kosovo, or Vojvodina, there were Albanians and also some Hungarians attacking Vukovar, and than endless complaints and squabbles they were sent first to die because they vere Albanian/Hungarian etc.)
than you flee a second you think you could die
NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
"No" is such a logical explanation. I am now euphoric not because of some phony explanation and reason but because I am enlightened by your own simple answer "no".
