Alternative history: Yugoslavia

[Domen]

Poles and Lithuanians are generally deeply devout Catholics.

I have an impression that nowadays most Poles consider going to church more as a matter of some sort of tradition or "Sunday family custom", than a matter of religion. Others don't go to church and claim that they are "religious, but not practitioners" - so not exactly "deeply devout".

But even Atheists in Poland (or at least majority of them) go to church twice a year - first time just before Christmas and second time just before Easter. Polish churches are overloaded on these two days (while in "regular Sundays" there are always many empty seats in each church).

Going to church with your family on Sunday is like... grilling with your family on Saturday - also part of Polish tradition.

Poles were devout Catholics during the Communist period* - because the Church was considered as an island of freedom in a sea of Communist regime.

After the fall of Communism in Poland, the level of religiousness of Polish society is gradually decreasing. After the death of John Paul II as well.

I suppose in the next hard period of Polish history, Poles will turn to seek salvation in God and - more importantly - the Church again.

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*I know this sounds funny. But one of stereotypical Polish features is nonconformism - apparently there is a grain of truth in this stereotype.

 

[Domen]

Poles were devout Catholics during the Communist period*

There were more such funny situations in Polish history.

During the so called Polish Revolution of 1788 - 1791, the local Polish branch of the Masonic Order was defending / supporting the Catholic Church against fierce attacks of Polish conservative and religious nobility, who wanted to tax the Catholic Church* and to confiscate its property / land.

The Masonic Order and the Catholic Church standing side by side... Reminds me of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact.

That unusual cooperation was caused by pragmatic reasons - members of the Masonic Order were rich landowners... just like the Catholic Church.

*The Catholic Church always enjoyed a relative tax freedom / tax paradise in Poland, which was not exactly good for state's public finances...

 

[Kyriakos]

Poland is not in Yugoslavia though

 

[TheLastOne36]

I have an impression that nowadays most Poles consider going to church more as a matter of some sort of tradition or "Sunday family custom", than a matter of religion. Others don't go to church and claim that they are "religious, but not practitioners" - so not exactly "deeply devout".

But even Atheists in Poland (or at least majority of them) go to church twice a year - first time just before Christmas and second time just before Easter. Polish churches are overloaded on these two days (while in "regular Sundays" there are always many empty seats in each church).

Going to church with your family on Sunday is like... grilling with your family on Saturday - also part of Polish tradition.

Cool that you mention that, as that is in fact my exact situation. I've gone to church just twice a year on Easter and Christmas for the past 8 years. The reason being for it is tradition. I regard the blessing of the food in the basket and the subsequent brunch to be an integral part of the Polish cultural calendar. If it wasn't it would've died out over time like fasting or no-meat on Fridays.

 

[Domen]

And some Pagan religious traditions also survived until nowadays.

One such tradition with Pagan origins is the "drowning of Marzanna" (the Slavic goddess on the left):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marzanna#Traditions

Slavic deities (Marzanna can be seen on the left):

The tradition of burning or drowning an effigy of Marzanna to celebrate the end of winter is a folk custom that survives in the Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia. Typically taking place on the day of the vernal equinox[citation needed] (20–21 March), the rite involves setting fire to a female straw effigy, drowning it in a river, or both.

In the Czech Republic or Poland, this is often performed during a field trip by children in kindergartens and primary schools.[3] The effigy, often prepared by the children themselves, can range in size from a puppet to a life-size dummy. This ritual represents the end of the dark days of winter, the victory over death, and the welcoming of the spring rebirth.

It concerns the "drowning of Marzanna," a large figure of a woman made from various rags and bits of clothing which is thrown into a river on the first day of the spring calendar. Along the way, she is dipped into every puddle and pond ... Very often she is burned along with herbs before being drowned and a twin custom is to decorate a pine tree with flowers and colored baubles to be carried through the village by the girls. There are of course many superstitions associated with the ceremony: you can't touch Marzanna once she's in the water, you can't look back at her, and if you fall on your way home you're in big trouble. One, or a combination of any of these can bring the usual dose of sickness and plague.
—Tom Galvin, "Drowning Your Sorrows in Spring", Warsaw Voice 13.544, March 28, 1999

Usually small children (kindergarten, primary school) are drowning these Marzannas (as part of "training of future killers"... ).

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BTW:

Please note the language relation between the goddess Marzana and "Marzec" (Polish), "Marec" (Slovak), "März" (German), "March" (English).

Interesting... Was the name of this month, adopted / derived by various ethnic groups from the name of this Slavic goddess, or inversely... ???

March is a month when Winter ends and Spring starts - and Marzana is a deity which is being "killed" when Spring starts (20-21 March).

 

[Lord Baal]

Why must you de-rail every thread into a discussion of something Polish? The thread was about Yugoslavia.

 

[Traitorfish]

You mean "South Poland"?

 

[Kyriakos]

I was rather enjoying the discussion on Yugoslavia too

 

[Domen]

People in areas of Yugoslavia also believed in those Pagan Slavic deities at some point.

But OK let's come back on topic (actually it was not me who started to de-rail the thread).

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Why didn't you invest in Eastern Poland.

 

[Lord Baal]

You mean "South Poland"?

The Sahara?

The religious divide in Yugoslavia was rather interesting. Serbian and Croatian are pretty much the exact same spoken language (there are minor dialectical differences, of course) but in Serbia they used Cyrillic, while Croatia used the Latin alphabet. I don't know if Serbia still uses Cyrillic today; I've known more than a few Serbs, but oddly never thought to ask them this question. Likewise, in the various censuses conducted before Tito, if you lived in the border areas between Serbia and Croatia, you were counted as a Serb if you were an Orthodox Christian, and Croatian if you were Catholic and a Bosniak if you were Muslim, regardless of your parentage.

 

[TheLastOne36]

The Sahara?

The religious divide in Yugoslavia was rather interesting. Serbian and Croatian are pretty much the exact same spoken language (there are minor dialectical differences, of course) but in Serbia they used Cyrillic, while Croatia used the Latin alphabet. I don't know if Serbia still uses Cyrillic today; I've known more than a few Serbs, but oddly never thought to ask them this question. Likewise, in the various censuses conducted before Tito, if you lived in the border areas between Serbia and Croatia, you were counted as a Serb if you were an Orthodox Christian, and Croatian if you were Catholic and a Bosniak if you were Muslim, regardless of your parentage.

This is interestingly the reason why Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia all share similar family names, and how every Serb/Croat/Bosniak have family in each of the three regions today.

It also makes things all the more stupid in that region as it is literally cousins and second cousins killing each other under the guise of nationalism.


Serbia uses both writing systems interchangeably today. Serbian is written in both (hence there being two Serbian wikipedia's) and both are taught in school. Though I think Cyrillic is still considered the more 'official' of the two.

 

[Lord Baal]

I thought so, but I didn't want to make the claim without knowing if I was correct.

 

[Tahuti]

Likewise, in the various censuses conducted before Tito, if you lived in the border areas between Serbia and Croatia, you were counted as a Serb if you were an Orthodox Christian, and Croatian if you were Catholic and a Bosniak if you were Muslim, regardless of your parentage.

What if you were an atheist?

 

[Tee Kay]

What if you were an atheist?

There used to be a "Yugoslav" option in the census. There are still some people in Bosnia today who insists they are Yugoslav and not Bosniaks, Croats, Serbs, etc.

 

[Srdjan]

The Sahara?

The religious divide in Yugoslavia was rather interesting. Serbian and Croatian are pretty much the exact same spoken language (there are minor dialectical differences, of course) but in Serbia they used Cyrillic, while Croatia used the Latin alphabet. I don't know if Serbia still uses Cyrillic today; I've known more than a few Serbs, but oddly never thought to ask them this question. Likewise, in the various censuses conducted before Tito, if you lived in the border areas between Serbia and Croatia, you were counted as a Serb if you were an Orthodox Christian, and Croatian if you were Catholic and a Bosniak if you were Muslim, regardless of your parentage.

No. All exYugoslav nations (except Albanians) are using reformed alphabet by Vuk Karadzic (Cyril and Latin and grammatics in some degree). Alphabet issue is political in nature. In some degree Croats imagine that Latin is Croat, and Cyrillic is a Serb alphabet which is ridiculous. However it is good ground for demagogs and similar low life creatures.
As for Serbia, both alphabets are in use. In fact it is regulated by our constitution. However, because there is great tendency that Latin alphabet will outcome the Cyril alphabet. Institutions of government are recommended to use Cyril alphabet. News papers, web site also but, there is no obligation regarding this matter.

You mentioned above something about religions. It is common believe among the nationalists, that true Serb have to be Orthodox Christian, Croat Catholic, and Bosnikas (new nation) Muslim. Two questions. What about atheists, and what about people that they claim that are Serbs but they practice Catholic Christianity (I know such people)? I presume that there is opposite examples.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Bosnikas (new nation) Muslim.

Bosniak =/= Muslim, Bosniak was a term used from the middle ages [Dobri Bošnjani], if you are talking about it being refereed to as a nationality....Serb was only used after Serb independence (19th century) before that it was Raja [just meaning non turkish people in turkish] or just christians. Bosniak has been used as a nationality term since Husein Captain of Gradacac revolt and completely officially since 1878 when the Austro-Hungarians came. Its use was banned during the Kingdom of SHS and the Communists. Muslim cannot be a nationality its a religious term. Bosniak is a nationality. Vuk Karadzic did not make the alphabet for all south Slavs, before him Bosnian was already a standardized language (see the Turkish-Bosnian dictionary released in 1631 and the codification of Bosnian grammar released before Karadzic) as was Croatian with a Latin alphabet. Croats never used Cyrillic they used Latin since the 11th century (thanks to Venetian and Hungarian influence). Vuk Karadzic just standardized church Cyrillic. Before him the common folk of Serbia (which could read and write ofc) under the Ottomans either used Turkish or adapted even Arebica (Arabic fit for south Slavic use).

Another idiotic thing is that we even drag this on "WHO HAS A LANGUAGE AND WHICH IS OLDER". We should just follow this logical route - Croatian should be thought and spoken in Croatia, Bosnian in Bosnia and Serbian in Serbia. I know Cyrillic, Bosancica and Latin. Its quite an old and worthless debate. Also if you are going to say Medieval Bosnians were "Serbs"....let me say medieval nationality does not work like that and if you are going to say they were Orthodox I will paraphrase (to lazy to find his book in my collection) Serbias most famed historian Simo Cirković; The Majority of the Bosnian populace was Bogumilistic (Heretical) as can be seen by numerous specific religious places located in Bosnia and Hum. Catholicism was adopted near the downfall of Bosnia as a way for the nobility to regain strong ties with the Pope and other European rules to fend off the Turks...thus monasteries can only be found where royal courts are found. (most notable Fojnica and Bobovac monastery - was there this spring). The Orthodox church was only in the southern and eastern fringes of the Kingdom, the land that does not belong to the Bosnian core (Sandzak, Crna Gora aka Zeta, are on around the Drina river) which proves they were made during Serbian rule over those areas not Bosnian.

 

[Kyriakos]

Just a note, the Cyrillic alphabet was (of course) created by st. Cyril, and his brother, st. Methodius, both from Thessalonike, specifically so that the slavs could have a written form of their language. Cyril and Methodius were Byzantine Greeks who lived in the 9th century AD.

 

[Srdjan]

Bosniak =/= Muslim, Bosniak was a term used from the middle ages [Dobri Bošnjani], if you are talking about it being refereed to as a nationality....Serb was only used after Serb independence (19th century) before that it was Raja [just meaning non turkish people in turkish] or just christians. Bosniak has been used as a nationality term since Husein Captain of Gradacac revolt and completely officially since 1878 when the Austro-Hungarians came. Its use was banned during the Kingdom of SHS and the Communists. Muslim cannot be a nationality its a religious term. Bosniak is a nationality. Vuk Karadzic did not make the alphabet for all south Slavs, before him Bosnian was already a standardized language (see the Turkish-Bosnian dictionary released in 1631 and the codification of Bosnian grammar released before Karadzic) as was Croatian with a Latin alphabet. Croats never used Cyrillic they used Latin since the 11th century (thanks to Venetian and Hungarian influence). Vuk Karadzic just standardized church Cyrillic. Before him the common folk of Serbia (which could read and write ofc) under the Ottomans either used Turkish or adapted even Arebica (Arabic fit for south Slavic use).

Another idiotic thing is that we even drag this on "WHO HAS A LANGUAGE AND WHICH IS OLDER". We should just follow this logical route - Croatian should be thought and spoken in Croatia, Bosnian in Bosnia and Serbian in Serbia. I know Cyrillic, Bosancica and Latin. Its quite an old and worthless debate. Also if you are going to say Medieval Bosnians were "Serbs"....let me say medieval nationality does not work like that and if you are going to say they were Orthodox I will paraphrase (to lazy to find his book in my collection) Serbias most famed historian Simo Cirković; The Majority of the Bosnian populace was Bogumilistic (Heretical) as can be seen by numerous specific religious places located in Bosnia and Hum. Catholicism was adopted near the downfall of Bosnia as a way for the nobility to regain strong ties with the Pope and other European rules to fend off the Turks...thus monasteries can only be found where royal courts are found. (most notable Fojnica and Bobovac monastery - was there this spring). The Orthodox church was only in the southern and eastern fringes of the Kingdom, the land that does not belong to the Bosnian core (Sandzak, Crna Gora aka Zeta, are on around the Drina river) which proves they were made during Serbian rule over those areas not Bosnian.

You are not the first internet warriror from Sarajevo that I have seen in CFC. I do not intent to participate in such debates. You have a SAX or putvjernika forums and there You can feed Your delusion as much as You want.

Prijatan dan.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

You are not the first internet warriror from Sarajevo that I have seen in CFC. I do not intent to participate in such debates. You have a SAX or putvjernika forums and there You can feed Your delusion as much as You want.

Prijatan dan.

Im not from Sarajevo. Im from Doboj. WELCOME TO THE RICE FIELDS! Also putvjernika is incredibly pseudoscientific and trollish. Im no internet warrior. I dont want to impose anything on anyone. Im just using reason and logic (something we truly lack here).

I agree Kyrakois, but it was never really used by all Slavs. Mostly because Catholic influence (Latin) or changing of the said script into something else (Bosancica) and etc.

EDIT: Put vjernika is delusional. I just saw it again. If you think Im some Islamic fundie protecting an Islamic Muslim Emirate in Bosnia omg you are so wrong. I really dont care about religion. You need not be Muslim to be Bosniak. How many times must i repeat that. Put Vjernika sells the story how Turks were magic liberators who gave us everything....they are mostly idiots. The Turks were occupiers, just like the Austrians and just like the quasi-nation of Republika Srpska during the war.