Alternative Timeline Experiment

[Masada]

What the janx is all this?

The Celts, Germanic peoples, and according to some historians the peoples that would later become the Romans and the Greeks, migrated from the Indus region, and the Caucasus mountains some time before or during the bronze age, and made their way to Europe. (That is where the term Caucasian comes from -- the name for the peoples that migrated to Europe from the Caucasus mountains, or colloquially, white people.)

What does that have to do with anything? I criticized the supposition that Europe was some sort of Eden from which, evidently, you seem to believe the Caucasian races propagated mightily amongst themselves before disgorging themselves upon their racial and cultural inferiors so that they could 'bear the white man's burden' for all eternity.

America, a nation originally founded by Anglo-Saxons, has had a large role to play in the amalgamation of different cultures, and the spread of ideas across cultures. This is not Eurocentrism, but a natural effect of having multiple cultures in one nation under one government. The "mix", this creates results in "cultural memories", that carry across what would be considered different cultures.

What? Euro-centrism is not whatever you think it is and it has nothing to do with fictive racial memories. There's nothing quasi-mystical about understanding that the European context shapes European perceptions of the world. People have been aware of the potential for this to distort genuine historical inquiry for all of, you know, 90 years.

Western culture is very hard to define, however, it is generally agreed that it is the creation of early Roman and Greek civilizations, combined with Mesopatamian cultures, and carried across through the Dark Ages into the Germanic nations of post-Fall of the Roman Empire Europe, (England, France, etc). A second period of migrations occurred during the Dark Ages when governments that had previously been outposts of the Roman Empire found themselves hiring mercenaries (mostly regions in which Celtic peoples had lived that the Romans had subjugated, a large amount of these mercenaries were hired by these "Romano-Celts", to control the tribes that had refused to be integrated into the Roman empire), mostly from the Germanic regions of Europe, which led to a large inundation of Germanic peoples into regions that had previously been Celto-Romanic.

What does that have to do with anything? The rest of your post was at least tangentially related to the argument even if it was replete with pseudo-scientific racial (and frankly racist) theories best left in the halls of the Thule Society.

Both the Germanic peoples, and the Celts, if history is to be believed originated in the Caucasus, and either migrated to there from Africa or Mesopatamia sometime before the dawn of organized, civilization, in a nomadic period of existence. Eurocentrism, as you call it, is mostly the result of a cultural memory that the migration of mass chunks of humanity created, as well as colonialism by European nations. Eurocentrism, is at best, a flawed cultural memory that carries back to a long-dead era of civilization, in which Europe was identified with civilization by European colonists.

I'm just going to call this: Theosophy at best or politically correct Scientific Racism at worst. There's nothing redeeming here. What I am interested in, is where the hell you picked this up from?

Mesoamerica didn't have the mountainous, sea based contact, Greek polis cultures. They had something more around kingdoms then Polis.

States defined by population centers and not terrestrial barriers? Its not like people haven't been writing on alternative forms of state organization since the 30s.

 

[Kraznaya]

That is my understanding. Look at the majority of Africa, mostly desert and jungle, there are a few plains, but except for the Nile the greater part of the continent is not exactly fertile. Mesopatamia has similar issues, and a large section of swamps in the south.

I would vociferously attack you for basing understandings of agricultural yield on how the terrain would be displayed in a Civilization game, but I think Masada's already been thoroughly enough in debunking your stranded wikilogic.

 

[civver_764]

Hey Masada, I think he's saying that people are picking Europe so much because that's where most of us can trace ourselves, not because Europe is better.

Or maybe I'm just not reading stuff correctly.

 

[Masada]

Hey Masada, I think he's saying that people are picking Europe so much because that's where most of us can trace ourselves, not because Europe is better.

You missed the point. Lord of Elves believes that white Anglo-Saxon Caucasians associate with Europe (well, white Anglo-Saxon Caucasian conceptions of Europe) because they're under a quasi-mystical racial compulsion to do so. It isn't scientifically valid, historical plausible or indeed even logical to believe that that might be the case. You need only look at any number of second or third generation Asian-Americans to get a sense of how wrong that is.

 

[Lord of Elves]

^That is not what I think, and please do not claim to understand what I am saying when you so clearly do not, or try to put those words in my mouth.

Masada, you said, "Eh?" when I mentioned the Indus/Caucasus mountain theory. It seemed that you didn't know what it was, so I explained it in that post. It's an idea that states that Caucasian cultures and races migrated from the Indian subcontinent to Europe, and has nothing to do with racism whatsoever. I'm not a Eurocentrist, and would be happy to discuss Asia, Africa, the Americas, or any other continent's peoples and history.

By the way, cultural memory is a concept of what people associate with when they say, "The good old days" or, "Back in the day", or just an object or idea that has a specific meaning to members of that culture it isn't just tied to race. It can be tied to a job, an interest, et cetera, culture is not just tied to a racial identity, there are subcultures or even groups that are so unique that they form their own cultures.

Civver is correct, all I was saying is that because so many people are familiar with Europe from a historical standpoint, that is why they are starting there, not because it is "God's continent", or some wonderful realm where bunnies crap rainbows. Perhaps I should have said that in the first place, instead of assuming people would be capable of having a scientific and historical discussion, instead of hurling accusations. I also appreciate how you are putting words into my mouth that are simply not there, and wonder how you draw racism from the idea that Caucasians migrated to Europe from the Indus and Caucasus mountains... But if it didn't make sense in the first place, hearing an explanation of it may not help.

I'll just withdraw from this conversation here...

 

[Masada]

That is not what I think, and please do not claim to understand what I am saying when you so clearly do not, or try to put those words in my mouth.

You don't understand what the hell Euro-centrism is. Then launch into a big macro-historical racially -- whites, Caucasians, Anglo-Saxons, Indo-European, Celts -- charged rant which has no bearing whatsoever on anything I said earlier.

Masada, you said, "Eh?" when I mentioned the Indus/Caucasus mountain theory.

It was "eh?" what the hell does this have to do with anything.

It seemed that you didn't know what it was, so I explained it in that post. It's an idea that states that Caucasian cultures and races migrated from the Indian subcontinent to Europe, and has nothing to do with racism whatsoever.

Cool story bro but what does that have to do with the Europe as Eden thing?

I'm not a Eurocentrist, and would be happy to discuss Asia, Africa, the Americas, or any other continent's peoples and history.

Euro-centrism is not a reluctance to talk about Asia, Africa, the Americas or even other continent's peoples and history. It is a tendency to see the world in European terms or through a European lens. Here it tends manifest itself in players blandly applying European norms of state governance to decidedly non-European situations.

By the way, cultural memory is a concept of what people associate with when they say, "The good old days" or, "Back in the day", or just an object or idea that has a specific meaning to members of that culture it isn't just tied to race. It can be tied to a job, an interest, et cetera, culture is not just tied to a racial identity, there are subcultures or even groups that are so unique that they form their own cultures.

Its called context. And it was only inevitable if you linked it to the freaking Caucasian race, sorry white race that I was going to call it racial memory. You didn't show any awareness of the time specific nature of context or indeed that it could exist independent of race.

Civver is correct, all I was saying is that because so many people are familiar with Europe from a historical standpoint, that is why they are starting there, not because it is "God's continent", or some wonderful realm where bunnies crap rainbows.

Which is what you painted it out to be, no? Besides which, even people with considerable historical knoweldge of non-European cultures tend to internalize it as Europeans would. And again, what you seem to think Euro-centrism is. It bloody well isn't.

Perhaps I should have said that in the first place, instead of assuming people would be capable of having a scientific and historical discussion, instead of hurling accusations.

No. If you want people (and I wasn't the only one who had a "WTH" moment witness Kraznaya's post) to understand you, you should write clearly and with regards to the context of earlier discussions. And even before then make sure you understand the bloody term your trying to discuss.

I also appreciate how you are putting words into my mouth that are simply not there, and wonder how you draw racism from the idea that Caucasians migrated to Europe from the Indus and Caucasus mountains... But if it didn't make sense in the first place, hearing an explanation of it may not help.

I'm sorry Mista Kurtz . Really. I'm not the one who linked Euro-centrism to Western culture which comes down through the hoary ol' ages all the way from the Caucasian, sorry, white race and that "Eurocentrism, as you call it, is mostly the result of a cultural memory that the migration of mass chunks of humanity created [including in the context the white race], as well as colonialism by European nations."' I wasn't putting words in your mouth. You explicitly linked race to culture. Then invokved 'cultural memory' which is in the context a shorthand for 'racial memory'.

 

[Lord of Elves]

I would quote your block, but it is indeed a massive block.

First off, when I say massive chunks of humanity, I mean "cultural memory as a whole". If humans did not migrate period, we would all still be in Africa, I am not referring exclusively to Europeans. I would be an idiot if I were, there were large periods of migrations for all different cultures and races of the human species.

Your "Eh", comment led me to believe I needed to make myself clear as to what I was talking about, so as to avoid anything like this.

Where are you getting Europe as Eden? Many of us are starting in Mesopatamia, and I have never claimed Europe as the birthplace of the human species. In fact, multiple times I have mentioned Africa as my own marker of the origination point of modern humans.

Eurocentrism, as my understanding of it is, is a belief that European culture, European civilization, and Europeans are inherently superior to any counterparts. Which I am entirely against, I admire the Bushido Code of feudalistic Japan, and the willingness to live with nature of the Native Americans, among other things. If you want to get into a discussion about the positive aspects of different cultures, I would be happy to do so.

Firstly, Caucasian is not a race, it is a genus. Race is in a way linked to tribe. Caucasian refers, not exclusively to but in a large part, to the peoples that inhabited Europe from the bronze age onward. Secondly, what you seem to be saying that because I discussed culture as it pertained to the Caucasian genus, since we're on the subject of Europe and for a large period of history races of the Caucasian genus lived in that part of the world, I am racist? I'm familiar with all of human history to varying degrees, and am not held back by heritage as to what I believe. Furthermore, I maintain friendships all across cultural and racial spectrums, and can trace my family to different parts of the world other than just Europe, including Mongolia, China, and Native American nations. Finally... I just said several paragraphs afterwards that cultural memory does not exist exclusively within race, and reiterate that point again in this post. Would you be so kind as to read what I wrote?

Where did I say Europe was wonderful? Personally, Europe has undergone large periods of upheaval, disgusting governments, horrible wars, and pretty much anything and everything imaginable, as such a historic area is prone to do. As has North America, Africa, Asia, or anywhere else.

Culture and race were once synonamous, but are no longer. In the context of earlier civilizations, where multiculturalism was very rare, you could expect a uniform culture within a country that had a large population of the race that identified with that culture. There is no "white race", as you constantly refer to it as. There is no black race. There is no [color] race. Race is a term that has been stretched, and stretched, and stretched to refer to larger and larger chunks of people. In a purely scientific context, race refers to members of a genetically specific line normally originating from pre-centralized tribes. This is not the case anymore, as I have said. We have "subcultures", different political groups which sometimes manage to have cultures of their own (I'm looking at you, PETA), etc. In the end, this is great. Take the good, and leave the bad. With a grain of salt, multiculturalism could lead to great things.

In conclusion... I love spirited debates just as much as the next person, but I have had enough of the crying of "racist", and if this type of baiting continues, I will simply ignore any further posts. Can I get a comment from the mod on this?

 

[Masada]

First off, when I say massive chunks of humanity, I mean "cultural memory as a whole". If humans did not migrate period, we would all still be in Africa, I am not referring exclusively to Europeans. I would be an idiot if I were, there were large periods of migrations for all different cultures and races of the human species.

I don't see what "cultural memory" has to do with anything, let alone the scientific, factual or historical basis for supposing that it even exists.

Your "Eh", comment led me to believe I needed to make myself clear as to what I was talking about, so as to avoid anything like this.

It wasn't clear. And at the risk of repeating myself, wait I will:

No. If you want people (and I wasn't the only one who had a "WTH" moment witness Kraznaya's post) to understand you, you should write clearly and with regards to the context of earlier discussions. And even before then make sure you understand the bloody term your trying to discuss.

Where are you getting Europe as Eden? Many of us are starting in Mesopatamia, and I have never claimed Europe as the birthplace of the human species. In fact, multiple times I have mentioned Africa as my own marker of the origination point of modern humans.

Your words: Also, compared to the areas that humanity originated in, (Africa, Mesopatamia), Europe is an agricultural wonderland. [Emphasis mine]

Eurocentrism, as my understanding of it is, is a belief that European culture, European civilization, and Europeans are inherently superior to any counterparts. Which I am entirely against, I admire the Bushido Code of feudalistic Japan, and the willingness to live with nature of the Native Americans, among other things. If you want to get into a discussion about the positive aspects of different cultures, I would be happy to do so.

Look up the definition. The emphasis is on the perception which encompasses both explicit and implicit assumptions of superiority and much more besides.

Firstly, Caucasian is not a race, it is a genus.

To wit: (That is where the term Caucasian comes from -- the name for the peoples that migrated to Europe from the Caucasus mountains, or colloquially, white people.) [Emphasis mine] Even accepting the use of colloquial in front, it does kind of beg the question, no...?

Secondly, what you seem to be saying that because I discussed culture as it pertained to the Caucasian genus, since we're on the subject of Europe and for a large period of history races of the Caucasian genus lived in that part of the world, I am racist?

I don't think you get it. The implication of racism had nothing to with the dry theoretical explanation of Caucasian migration which wasn't really relevant in the first instance. Instead, it was principally concerned to your explicit linking of race to culture through 'cultural memory' which apparently in your narrative is the direct result of migrations which happened umpteen thousand of years in the past. Quite how that implanted a 'cultural memory' and how it inexorably led to Western culture and Euro-centrism is a mystery to me or even how that exists as a satisfactory means of explains it. You even seem to have doubts about the veracity of your own suppositions.

I'm familiar with all of human history to varying degrees, and am not held back by heritage as to what I believe.

Dreams of Caucasus mountains and all that?

Finally... I just said several paragraphs afterwards that cultural memory does not exist exclusively within race, and reiterate that point again in this post. Would you be so kind as to read what I wrote?

Great. So why is the cultural memories of a couple of thousand years ago (assuming they exist) have any bearing on what we were discussing earlier. I was entirely serious when I questioned where the hell you got this from and I was only half joking when I suggested Theosophy -- the nicest institution that pushes this kind of world view -- or the Thule Society -- the tip of a particularly pernicious iceberg for this kind of thing.

In conclusion... I love spirited debates just as much as the next person, but I have had enough of the crying of "racist", and if this type of baiting continues, I will simply ignore any further posts. Can I get a comment from the mod on this?

Because: trying to explain Euro-centrism as a product of Caucasian population movements isn't completely intellectually suspect and borderline racist (and I wasn't the only person to read it that way). So a quick bit of advice: look up the definition of Euro-centrism then take the time to write up a theory that contains caveats, if you want it to have them, and then try again. I might have been just a little bit unfair but I'm not really feeling guilty at the moment and none of the thread police have bothered to show up to tell me how bad I am which usually happens when I'm pushing the envelope.

 

[Lord of Elves]

I'm done having this discussion. I gave you links to Wikipedia sites, listed several documentaries, et cetera, all the sources you would need to understand what I was talking about. If you have no desire to research the Caucasus mountain theory, or the idea of cultural memory, (an idea associated with an object, place, person or thing within the confines of the methods and attitudes of a particular group), then I can't even have this discussion. Your arguments are incoherent, have very little to do with my actual discussion, and do not take into account context. For example, when saying, "... Europe is an agricultural wonderland", you failed to link the previous part of the sentence which, if memory serves me, was, "Compared to parts of the areas mankind originated in, Europe is an agricultural wonderland." What I mean by this, if relativity is not comprehendable to you, is that compared to the large jungles in most of Africa, and the deserts and arid climate of Mesopatamia, Europe gets along quite well. That is not a comparing of different societies, it is a comparing of landmasses. That you draw racism to it is a logical fallacy, and an attempt to steer the discussion into a pothole.

The Caucasus mountains are in the Middle-East, near modern-day former Soviet republics, and Pakistan. Caucasian, a term describing a racial genus, originates from the name of the mountains. Caucasians, a genus plural that is normally used to describe Europeans, are not native to Europe. Going back thousands of years, Caucasians come from the Caucasus mountains. If you suddenly express a desire to actually understand what I'm talking about, refer to any website, book, or television show that talks about the history of Indo-European languages. And when discussing Eurocentrism, it's very hard not to talk about European history. To do otherwise would be out of context.

Whether my original point was worded in an inefficient manner can be argued, but that does not change the idea.

This is my final post on the subject, and if you want to continue this "conversation", I would appreciate you doing so with someone else.

Civver, has everyone gotten their orders in?

 

[Bil]

Possibly, if this conversation does continue, can it be taken to the new WWW thread please? For the sake of civver and his game?

 

[Lord of Elves]

Possibly, if this conversation does continue, can it be taken to the new WWW thread please? For the sake of civver and his game?

At this point, this conversation has very, very little to do with the actual game in question, since the civilizations and cultures of our universe are only barely represented in IC Earth. So... Can we move on, since this is so barely related to the actual NES?

 

[Arakhor]

If we can move on, I'd quite like to see if I can squeeze myself in somewhere.

 

[civver_764]

Everyone has their orders in except Karalysia, who I assume has just quit, so we're going to move on without him. I've been working on the update, albeit very lazily, but you should expect to see it soon. I'm not going to make a specific deadline that I'll just end up procrastinating past anyways.

@Arakhor: Sure, there's plenty of room left. Just fill out the join form and you should be set =D.

 

[Arakhor]

Are the Fushigidane NPCs? I was looking to seed a "Mysterious Orient" tribe dedicated to spiritual enlightenment and the worship of a dragon spirit in or near Japan. I ask because the various tribes don't have player names beside them and there aren't any hot-links to their tribal write-ups.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Arakhor, I think (but am not certain) that you can find the player civilizations/tribes on the first page. All others should be marked NPC. Glad to see we have someone starting in Asia, that part of the world is mostly empty at the moment.

 

[civver_764]

Are the Fushigidane NPCs? I was looking to seed a "Mysterious Orient" tribe dedicated to spiritual enlightenment and the worship of a dragon spirit in or near Japan. I ask because the various tribes don't have player names beside them and there aren't any hot-links to their tribal write-ups.

Actually I haven't listed the NPCs yet, all the ones listed are currently being played by someone.

EXCEPT for the Naagan Tribes(probably listed as Naaga), since the person who created them has quit. I dunno if you want to be in that area though, but it's probably a good way to start with an already established culture.

Other NPC cultures are:

Turtish Tribes
Srisian Tribes
Aeryan Tribes
Laox Tribes
Farrmarch
Pictael Tribes

And their locations can be found on the most recent map(which is on page 8).

Alternatively you can also create your own culture.

 

[Masada]

[Moved].

 

[Arakhor]

I'll resist the urge to start in the Asian cradle, as it seems very well subscribed at the moment!

Name: The People of the Dragon
Location: OTL Tokyo (central eastern coast of Japan)
Urban Centre: Torashigo (Seat of the Dragon)
Colour: Emerald green
Culture: The tribe believes that they spun out of the elements and given form by the dragon spirit Torasi. It is he whom brings the harvest, controls the weather and the heavens and whom protects the tribe. He punishes them with fire and sickness when he is wrathful and rewards them with mild seasons and bountiful harvests when he is pleased.
Political System: The tribe has a clear hierarchy, with the chosen disciple of Torasi as the tribal leader and the interpreter of the Dragon's will as the tribal shaman. While they do assist with the necessities of newly agricultural life, it is the responsibility of each hearth to see to the well-being of both themselves and their leaders. Otherwise, the tribal is extremely communal and shares almost all tasks according to each person's ability and need.
Other: I'll start with one point each in Culture and Society to indicate the heavy spiritual side of my people. Military and expansion can wait for now!

 

[Lord of Elves]

Doombump of doom-ness.

 

[Arakhor]

Assuming this hasn't just died on its feet, I'm off for a week, so I won't be able to post any actions for the upcoming turn.