Always Peace
- Thread starter Spoonwood
- Start date
Agreed that Writing is safe enough to trade in a few turns. In fact, I'd recommend it. We want the AI researching different stuff there so we don't have to, I'd think. I'm more concerned that they will have nothing to trade.
I have one additional wacky thought. Go for Lit as a research goal now.
Hear me out.
We do Lit, then Philo. I am willing to bet that SOMEONE will have Polytheism by the time we get Philo. If I'm right, presto, that's Monarchy. And we can trade for everything, and get the HG with our wonder build, and life is good.
If we get Philo and do get a free tech from it, and nobody has Poly, then I'll be shocked, but I guess we could then take Poly and research Monarchy ourselves, with lots of trade bait in hand, and have ToA as the build if we can't get HG in time.
If we don't get a tech from Philo, then we may be falling behind the other continent in technology, and we can perhaps switch the wonder to the Great Library and concentrate on other things besides research for a while.
Lit also lets us build libraries instead of temples for culture pops, which I like, a lot.
I'd say you take it, and go however far you want to of 7, 10, or 12.
I have one additional wacky thought. Go for Lit as a research goal now.
Hear me out.
We do Lit, then Philo. I am willing to bet that SOMEONE will have Polytheism by the time we get Philo. If I'm right, presto, that's Monarchy. And we can trade for everything, and get the HG with our wonder build, and life is good.
If we get Philo and do get a free tech from it, and nobody has Poly, then I'll be shocked, but I guess we could then take Poly and research Monarchy ourselves, with lots of trade bait in hand, and have ToA as the build if we can't get HG in time.
If we don't get a tech from Philo, then we may be falling behind the other continent in technology, and we can perhaps switch the wonder to the Great Library and concentrate on other things besides research for a while.
Lit also lets us build libraries instead of temples for culture pops, which I like, a lot.
I'd say you take it, and go however far you want to of 7, 10, or 12.
I seriously don't think your idea will work. Maybe it would on Monarch... but it just doesn't seem like it will here. But, I can't remember the last time in a game that I played to the industrial age where I didn't build The Great Library. I kind of doubt we've fallen behind the other continent, because they *all* had to pay for mathematics... the AIs near us didn't. But, what do I know for sure? Not much. So, I guess I'll start in on Literature (I will 99.9999% guarantee we'll get this one first by a landslide). However, with this, we need to make sure we do 2 things.
1. We check in with all the AIs we know every turn (I get tech info from MapStat every turn... I don't know if CivAssist 2 does this or not). IF they get mysticism, we 1. immediately switch reserach to philosophy (maybe not if we have only 2 or 4 turns left of literature, but I think you get the idea) and 2. try to buy it with... deep breath... cash.... NOT writing... unless only 4 or 5 turns left on philosohpy... that we know the locals won't beat reseraching philosophy.
2. We don't sell writing until we have 4 or 5 turns left on philosophy (which means we WON'T trade it, to increase the probability of us getting the philosophy slingshot).
I do think our prebuild will now turn into The Great Library. I don't think missing the Hanging Gardens a big deal... and if we do, we can just build Hoover's later (I can't foresee us missing this). We might get both even if we build The Great Library first, if the Temple of Artemis cascade and perhaps another cascade from one of The Great Wall/Museum of Mausollos/The Great Lighthouse go well for us. I can't say I can predict emperor research all that well on a huge map. Thinking even more about our wonder plan, missing Smith's might not even come as a big deal (I don't think this will happen... but more possible than missing Hoover's Dam). If we missed that, we build the U.N. and Hoover's and have a golden age for researching techs for a spaceship launch or even The Internet. Having read about a peaceful demi-god HoF game where the player didn't get a GA until the modern era, I've stopped sweating that so much for us. So, I'll implement the Literature plan and see how it goes. We almost surely can easily nail The Great Library as a fall back plan... so here goes.
1. We check in with all the AIs we know every turn (I get tech info from MapStat every turn... I don't know if CivAssist 2 does this or not). IF they get mysticism, we 1. immediately switch reserach to philosophy (maybe not if we have only 2 or 4 turns left of literature, but I think you get the idea) and 2. try to buy it with... deep breath... cash.... NOT writing... unless only 4 or 5 turns left on philosohpy... that we know the locals won't beat reseraching philosophy.
2. We don't sell writing until we have 4 or 5 turns left on philosophy (which means we WON'T trade it, to increase the probability of us getting the philosophy slingshot).
I do think our prebuild will now turn into The Great Library. I don't think missing the Hanging Gardens a big deal... and if we do, we can just build Hoover's later (I can't foresee us missing this). We might get both even if we build The Great Library first, if the Temple of Artemis cascade and perhaps another cascade from one of The Great Wall/Museum of Mausollos/The Great Lighthouse go well for us. I can't say I can predict emperor research all that well on a huge map. Thinking even more about our wonder plan, missing Smith's might not even come as a big deal (I don't think this will happen... but more possible than missing Hoover's Dam). If we missed that, we build the U.N. and Hoover's and have a golden age for researching techs for a spaceship launch or even The Internet. Having read about a peaceful demi-god HoF game where the player didn't get a GA until the modern era, I've stopped sweating that so much for us. So, I'll implement the Literature plan and see how it goes. We almost surely can easily nail The Great Library as a fall back plan... so here goes.
I have a bad feeling about China when we meet them... or maybe when they start using their Riders. I played 10 turns. Literature due in 4... may as well finish it off. I haven't traded Writing... none of our neighbors have it yet. The Persians have horseback riding. Our military situation looks quite good to me.
I'd suggest Paris's next settler found on the rectangle in the last screenshot. It should start on a curragh. This way, we'll get the new wheat in our radius without having to culturally expand for it, and we'll have cultural borders out to Dijon. I'd further suggest sending the worker to the tundra forest ahead of the settler and starting on a chop towards the curragh. The Orleans settler can go south to block the Persians or northwest, or northeast.. your call. Our ships have quite a bit of ways to travel. The save and screenies:
Spoiler :
I'd suggest Paris's next settler found on the rectangle in the last screenshot. It should start on a curragh. This way, we'll get the new wheat in our radius without having to culturally expand for it, and we'll have cultural borders out to Dijon. I'd further suggest sending the worker to the tundra forest ahead of the settler and starting on a chop towards the curragh. The Orleans settler can go south to block the Persians or northwest, or northeast.. your call. Our ships have quite a bit of ways to travel. The save and screenies:
Nice work, boss.
Agreed on getting waterborne--and I'm MUCH more comfortable doing it from "our" coast as opposed to the far one. There seems much less danger of a random trade route cut this way. Agree on the location as well. However, I think I may wait on a forest chop. Seems better to get Grenoble hopping with the existing workers, and hook up our dyes. I do like the forest choppy-chop for the harbor that would eventually follow though. That coastal town will actually do some very nice work as long as it, and not Grenoble, gets the wheat. Once that wheat gets irrigated, that and a bunch of forests should equal pretty nice production.
(If I was going to chop, I'd do it on one of the river non-tundra forests, to clear the land and get the shields. The tundra pretty much needs forest to be useful anyway. Not that there isn't plenty there.)
Not sure on the timing, but I think you might have been okay to found Grenoble one spot further south. Persia wouldn't have founded where they were in that first picture. I wouldn't sweat it though. I guess they could have gone SE or something and been annoying that way.
After the one curragh/harbor town, where for settlers? I'm thinking of making a little more land grab by Sumeria. Still plenty of fertile ground there. If we can get three towns there I'd dance for joy; two would be pretty okay even. Of course, expanding that way precludes expanding north, but as you noted earlier, north is some pretty nasty terrain.
Thanks for going with Lit--makes me feel good, even if it doesn't work (but I bet it will). If we can get a good tech with Philo, I will be dancing for joy, because we will have a GREAT tech advantage at that point.
HBR I could care less about getting right now, though of course horses are something we should be wary of. We've got 'em too, though. I wouldn't even be averse to building a couple of chariots now that we got our horses hooked up--not that we much need them, but they'll upgrade, and mobile defenders is a Good Thing, because we're getting a little stretched out.
Question for you to ponder (not that it needs an answer now): IF we can somehow get Monarchy as the free tech (assuming I'm right and someone gets Poly before we get Philo), do we revolt to it right away? Keep in mind in that scenario Republic would be at least two techs away for us (CoL and Republic), and we'd have to research the optional tech rather than beelining for the goodies at the start of the next age. My vote would be yes, bite the bullet and revolt. In terms of shields, we would make it up at least in Lyons just by mining a hill (or two, which I'd fully suggest at that point)... and by my informal (not looking at the save or screen shots) count we have, what, seven food bonuses in our borders? Eight? That's a lot of food being despotized away.
Long term thinking, part 2: our palace (or FP) would look awfully nice on one of those lake towns. That seems to be the fulcrum of our future empire.
Agreed on getting waterborne--and I'm MUCH more comfortable doing it from "our" coast as opposed to the far one. There seems much less danger of a random trade route cut this way. Agree on the location as well. However, I think I may wait on a forest chop. Seems better to get Grenoble hopping with the existing workers, and hook up our dyes. I do like the forest choppy-chop for the harbor that would eventually follow though. That coastal town will actually do some very nice work as long as it, and not Grenoble, gets the wheat. Once that wheat gets irrigated, that and a bunch of forests should equal pretty nice production.
(If I was going to chop, I'd do it on one of the river non-tundra forests, to clear the land and get the shields. The tundra pretty much needs forest to be useful anyway. Not that there isn't plenty there.)
Not sure on the timing, but I think you might have been okay to found Grenoble one spot further south. Persia wouldn't have founded where they were in that first picture. I wouldn't sweat it though. I guess they could have gone SE or something and been annoying that way.
After the one curragh/harbor town, where for settlers? I'm thinking of making a little more land grab by Sumeria. Still plenty of fertile ground there. If we can get three towns there I'd dance for joy; two would be pretty okay even. Of course, expanding that way precludes expanding north, but as you noted earlier, north is some pretty nasty terrain.
Thanks for going with Lit--makes me feel good, even if it doesn't work (but I bet it will). If we can get a good tech with Philo, I will be dancing for joy, because we will have a GREAT tech advantage at that point.
HBR I could care less about getting right now, though of course horses are something we should be wary of. We've got 'em too, though. I wouldn't even be averse to building a couple of chariots now that we got our horses hooked up--not that we much need them, but they'll upgrade, and mobile defenders is a Good Thing, because we're getting a little stretched out.
Question for you to ponder (not that it needs an answer now): IF we can somehow get Monarchy as the free tech (assuming I'm right and someone gets Poly before we get Philo), do we revolt to it right away? Keep in mind in that scenario Republic would be at least two techs away for us (CoL and Republic), and we'd have to research the optional tech rather than beelining for the goodies at the start of the next age. My vote would be yes, bite the bullet and revolt. In terms of shields, we would make it up at least in Lyons just by mining a hill (or two, which I'd fully suggest at that point)... and by my informal (not looking at the save or screen shots) count we have, what, seven food bonuses in our borders? Eight? That's a lot of food being despotized away.
Long term thinking, part 2: our palace (or FP) would look awfully nice on one of those lake towns. That seems to be the fulcrum of our future empire.
"Nice work, boss."
LOL... I did go with your research plan there.
"There seems much less danger of a random trade route cut this way."
I didn't and probably wouldn't have thought of that (even though it happened to me in COTM48). Good point.
"Seems better to get Grenoble hopping with the existing workers, and hook up our dyes."
Roads take longer when built over forest than otherwise. If you want to save the chop shields for later, go ahead... but just remember that our workers than spend more time overall in the fields (less of a problem since we're industrious, I suppose).
"Once that wheat gets irrigated, that and a bunch of forests should equal pretty nice production."
I didn't think of that. Good idea.
"Not sure on the timing, but I think you might have been okay to found Grenoble one spot further south."
I assure you I would have prefered that. However, Persia had a settler southwest of our settler the turn I founded it (check screenie three). If I hadn't have found it there when I did, we may have well lost that territory, as I expect they would have founded on the coast there that turn. I've seen AIs plant cities in locations like that before... especially in one city 20k games.
"After the one curragh/harbor town, where for settlers? I'm thinking of making a little more land grab by Sumeria."
That sounds good.
"HBR I could care less about getting right now, though of course horses are something we should be wary of. We've got 'em too, though."
HBR???
"I wouldn't even be averse to building a couple of chariots now that we got our horses hooked up--not that we much need them, but they'll upgrade, and mobile defenders is a Good Thing, because we're getting a little stretched out."
Instead of archers in Marseilles perhaps. Elsewhere, I think we should keep on with cheap warriors until we get the iron hooked up. Then archers/spearman/chariots/horseman.
"IF we can somehow get Monarchy as the free tech (assuming I'm right and someone gets Poly before we get Philo), do we revolt to it right away?"
No way. Paris will probably still crank settlers (we'll get Philosophy in like 7 turns after we finish literature). This would also imply 2 anarchy periods... definitely not in our best interest.
[Keep in mind in that scenario Republic would be at least two techs away for us (CoL and Republic), and we'd have to research the optional tech rather than beelining for the goodies at the start of the next age.]
Or we could just wait until the AI researches it. I don't know which works out better here though.
[seven food bonuses in our borders? Eight? That's a lot of food being despotized away.]
Yes and no. The extra food in Paris does us nothing as more than 5 food does nothing for it. It could do something for Orleans... but still the revolt can wait... as it will leave us more vulnerable to attack and it will stop Paris and anyone else from cranking out settlers. I want RoPs with our 5 neighbors before we revolt. We could probably handle having a city fewer or two due to revolting early... but we want RoPs before we revolt... and only one anarchy.
[Long term thinking, part 2: our palace (or FP) would look awfully nice on one of those lake towns. That seems to be the fulcrum of our future empire.]
Not a bad idea. Marseilles (the one north of Paris) can work... but the lake towns might work out better. If so, I'd think the middle one... which means it goes temple (to expand towards the game and use more tiles while building the FP)->forbidden palace or forbidden palace prebuild. I think we have a forest or two we can chop around there for its temple.
Again, in 11 or so turns Paris will have produced 3 more settlers. We still have a lot more territory out there, so keep Paris going with those settlers. We need at least 18 cities for the FP, and we don't hit optimal city level until what... 25+ or something? We also want RoPs before anarchy, and only one so we can research more or stock more up on gold if we build the GL.
LOL... I did go with your research plan there.
"There seems much less danger of a random trade route cut this way."
I didn't and probably wouldn't have thought of that (even though it happened to me in COTM48). Good point.
"Seems better to get Grenoble hopping with the existing workers, and hook up our dyes."
Roads take longer when built over forest than otherwise. If you want to save the chop shields for later, go ahead... but just remember that our workers than spend more time overall in the fields (less of a problem since we're industrious, I suppose).
"Once that wheat gets irrigated, that and a bunch of forests should equal pretty nice production."
I didn't think of that. Good idea.
"Not sure on the timing, but I think you might have been okay to found Grenoble one spot further south."
I assure you I would have prefered that. However, Persia had a settler southwest of our settler the turn I founded it (check screenie three). If I hadn't have found it there when I did, we may have well lost that territory, as I expect they would have founded on the coast there that turn. I've seen AIs plant cities in locations like that before... especially in one city 20k games.
"After the one curragh/harbor town, where for settlers? I'm thinking of making a little more land grab by Sumeria."
That sounds good.
"HBR I could care less about getting right now, though of course horses are something we should be wary of. We've got 'em too, though."
HBR???
"I wouldn't even be averse to building a couple of chariots now that we got our horses hooked up--not that we much need them, but they'll upgrade, and mobile defenders is a Good Thing, because we're getting a little stretched out."
Instead of archers in Marseilles perhaps. Elsewhere, I think we should keep on with cheap warriors until we get the iron hooked up. Then archers/spearman/chariots/horseman.
"IF we can somehow get Monarchy as the free tech (assuming I'm right and someone gets Poly before we get Philo), do we revolt to it right away?"
No way. Paris will probably still crank settlers (we'll get Philosophy in like 7 turns after we finish literature). This would also imply 2 anarchy periods... definitely not in our best interest.
[Keep in mind in that scenario Republic would be at least two techs away for us (CoL and Republic), and we'd have to research the optional tech rather than beelining for the goodies at the start of the next age.]
Or we could just wait until the AI researches it. I don't know which works out better here though.
[seven food bonuses in our borders? Eight? That's a lot of food being despotized away.]
Yes and no. The extra food in Paris does us nothing as more than 5 food does nothing for it. It could do something for Orleans... but still the revolt can wait... as it will leave us more vulnerable to attack and it will stop Paris and anyone else from cranking out settlers. I want RoPs with our 5 neighbors before we revolt. We could probably handle having a city fewer or two due to revolting early... but we want RoPs before we revolt... and only one anarchy.
[Long term thinking, part 2: our palace (or FP) would look awfully nice on one of those lake towns. That seems to be the fulcrum of our future empire.]
Not a bad idea. Marseilles (the one north of Paris) can work... but the lake towns might work out better. If so, I'd think the middle one... which means it goes temple (to expand towards the game and use more tiles while building the FP)->forbidden palace or forbidden palace prebuild. I think we have a forest or two we can chop around there for its temple.
Again, in 11 or so turns Paris will have produced 3 more settlers. We still have a lot more territory out there, so keep Paris going with those settlers. We need at least 18 cities for the FP, and we don't hit optimal city level until what... 25+ or something? We also want RoPs before anarchy, and only one so we can research more or stock more up on gold if we build the GL.
Yeah, you're right about the revolt to Monarchy being a bad idea.
I lied about not playing for a while. I played my 10. No time to give screen shots, but here's the unedited turn log:
1100: Check everything. Looks OK to me. CA2 is open.
Orleans is set for a library in 13, but if you want a settler it is timed to grow in 3/settler in 3 again. And in fact you will want to be careful to MM it on growth to 5 to take it off the hill and onto an unmined BG in order to make settler production work. A settler may in fact be best, I'm not sure. We do still have a LOT of land to settle, and it would also be nice to make Paris into a real town instead of a settler factory.
I want a city in between Marseilles and Poitiers, and hopefully one between Poitiers and Sumeria (there is a grassland surrounded by four BGs; I'd plant there). Plus there is some good sugar in the north. I have one settler ready to plant north of Avignon; the warrior to the west of that is where I would put the settler that is heading that way (arriving in 4). Another settler north of Tours is headed for the general area of that horse but if exploration reveals anything interesting, somewhere in the black might be better. We also need one settler in the far south, to settle on the south side of the river mouth. That spot will eventually get the iron and both whales and be a very nice tundra town in the distant future.
The three temples in production COULD (and maybe should) be switched to libraries at your discretion. In the case of Besancon, I would keep it as a temple and then do a library next. With Sumeria settling, more culture faster there = better. At this point with the Hanging Gardens in our sights, and three luxuries locked up, there is no reason for temples as far as happiness goes--they're for culture only. I'd rather have the libraries, in general.
Note that we are going to hook up our dyes in two turns with that worker; that should eliminate all luxury tax concerns for now.
I have Avignon spitting out workers as it is not luxury connected and I don't think we want it to get too large for the moment. That can change before too long, but I would suggest that if you want any more warriors, you get them now, because I plan to hook it into the network on my next turnset if you don't.
On outer ring cities, I'd be content to pack those in more like CxxC than we have been, but we don't have to. Still plenty of room in the north to expand. It's not particularly GOOD land, but it's there. I still think the land between us and Sumeria needs to be our land grab.
Enjoy! I'll be out of touch today but can play late tonight or tomorrow.
I lied about not playing for a while. I played my 10. No time to give screen shots, but here's the unedited turn log:
1100: Check everything. Looks OK to me. CA2 is open.
Spoiler :
Swap Lyons to HG, due in 23. Paris builds settler, it will settle S of Orleans (on hill CxxxC to both Orleans and Paris), which gets it the BG that Orleans doesn't have in its culture yet, and eventually one from Grenoble as well.Orleans is set for a library in 13, but if you want a settler it is timed to grow in 3/settler in 3 again. And in fact you will want to be careful to MM it on growth to 5 to take it off the hill and onto an unmined BG in order to make settler production work. A settler may in fact be best, I'm not sure. We do still have a LOT of land to settle, and it would also be nice to make Paris into a real town instead of a settler factory.
I want a city in between Marseilles and Poitiers, and hopefully one between Poitiers and Sumeria (there is a grassland surrounded by four BGs; I'd plant there). Plus there is some good sugar in the north. I have one settler ready to plant north of Avignon; the warrior to the west of that is where I would put the settler that is heading that way (arriving in 4). Another settler north of Tours is headed for the general area of that horse but if exploration reveals anything interesting, somewhere in the black might be better. We also need one settler in the far south, to settle on the south side of the river mouth. That spot will eventually get the iron and both whales and be a very nice tundra town in the distant future.
The three temples in production COULD (and maybe should) be switched to libraries at your discretion. In the case of Besancon, I would keep it as a temple and then do a library next. With Sumeria settling, more culture faster there = better. At this point with the Hanging Gardens in our sights, and three luxuries locked up, there is no reason for temples as far as happiness goes--they're for culture only. I'd rather have the libraries, in general.
Note that we are going to hook up our dyes in two turns with that worker; that should eliminate all luxury tax concerns for now.
I have Avignon spitting out workers as it is not luxury connected and I don't think we want it to get too large for the moment. That can change before too long, but I would suggest that if you want any more warriors, you get them now, because I plan to hook it into the network on my next turnset if you don't.
On outer ring cities, I'd be content to pack those in more like CxxC than we have been, but we don't have to. Still plenty of room in the north to expand. It's not particularly GOOD land, but it's there. I still think the land between us and Sumeria needs to be our land grab.
Enjoy! I'll be out of touch today but can play late tonight or tomorrow.
darski
Regent in Training
Might I ask why you want ROP's so badly - they will give your enemies access to all your land?
it just seems like an unusual thing to read in an SG.
but I am willing to learn a new way of thinking.
it just seems like an unusual thing to read in an SG.
but I am willing to learn a new way of thinking."Lowering science but not raising lux still does the trick."
Our citizens must abhor a national deficit.
"Research I have set to Currency in 15 at 90%, breaks even, we have 61g in the bank."
I feel confident we can trade for Currency, especially since we have Lizzie around. I'll switch to CoL or Map Making... probably Map Making. Good news on the philosophy-Monarchy shot. Thank goodness I got it wrong! I do feel a little nervous still. We simply can't trade Monarchy until the Temple of Artemis gets finished (I don't remember its exact shield cost... but it's quite big for the time of game)... that seems WAY too risky or we have the Hanging Gardens. And we've cheapened it for the AI, so even though they won't usually research it right away and would delay reseraching this usually, they might start on it... or get to it faster. We might want to merge workers into Lyons to get that thing done faster. Maybe I've just gotten too used to playing Demi-god or Deity where you almost surely you have to do that... or forget the Great Library... ahem... the wonder you choose to build.
"Orleans is set for a library in 13, but if you want a settler it is timed to grow in 3/settler in 3 again."
I think it better to whip the library in soon enough, and then have it keep producing workers/settlers. We'll get workers/settlers faster this way.
"At this point with the Hanging Gardens in our sights, and three luxuries locked up, there is no reason for temples as far as happiness goes--they're for culture only. I'd rather have the libraries, in general."
Well... sometimes I think of temples as a sort of pre-build on cathedrals to defeat corruption via "we love the leader day". But then again, that pretty much only makes sense over libraries if we don't do our own research... and we will do our own research, so libraries for sure. After libraries, probably marketplaces.
"I have Avignon spitting out workers as it is not luxury connected and I don't think we want it to get too large for the moment. That can change before too long, but I would suggest that if you want any more warriors, you get them now, because I plan to hook it into the network on my next turnset if you don't."
I say hook it all up. I'd rather all towns have luxuries than not, and we can go with archers/spearman.
"On outer ring cities, I'd be content to pack those in more like CxxC than we have been, but we don't have to. Still plenty of room in the north to expand. It's not particularly GOOD land, but it's there. I still think the land between us and Sumeria needs to be our land grab."
Yeah... I think we can start packing in towns tighter than before, since we have less territory to go. Although... we might want a fatter spread to the East and South since Sumeria hasn't sent much there yet. I agree we should concentrate on expanding towards Sumeria for now. Of course later when we discover that we could have gotten... just kidding!
I'll wait to play until I've read what you think on this teammate, especially research and merging workers into Lyons.
Our citizens must abhor a national deficit.
"Research I have set to Currency in 15 at 90%, breaks even, we have 61g in the bank."
I feel confident we can trade for Currency, especially since we have Lizzie around. I'll switch to CoL or Map Making... probably Map Making. Good news on the philosophy-Monarchy shot. Thank goodness I got it wrong! I do feel a little nervous still. We simply can't trade Monarchy until the Temple of Artemis gets finished (I don't remember its exact shield cost... but it's quite big for the time of game)... that seems WAY too risky or we have the Hanging Gardens. And we've cheapened it for the AI, so even though they won't usually research it right away and would delay reseraching this usually, they might start on it... or get to it faster. We might want to merge workers into Lyons to get that thing done faster. Maybe I've just gotten too used to playing Demi-god or Deity where you almost surely you have to do that... or forget the Great Library... ahem... the wonder you choose to build.
"Orleans is set for a library in 13, but if you want a settler it is timed to grow in 3/settler in 3 again."
I think it better to whip the library in soon enough, and then have it keep producing workers/settlers. We'll get workers/settlers faster this way.
"At this point with the Hanging Gardens in our sights, and three luxuries locked up, there is no reason for temples as far as happiness goes--they're for culture only. I'd rather have the libraries, in general."
Well... sometimes I think of temples as a sort of pre-build on cathedrals to defeat corruption via "we love the leader day". But then again, that pretty much only makes sense over libraries if we don't do our own research... and we will do our own research, so libraries for sure. After libraries, probably marketplaces.
"I have Avignon spitting out workers as it is not luxury connected and I don't think we want it to get too large for the moment. That can change before too long, but I would suggest that if you want any more warriors, you get them now, because I plan to hook it into the network on my next turnset if you don't."
I say hook it all up. I'd rather all towns have luxuries than not, and we can go with archers/spearman.
"On outer ring cities, I'd be content to pack those in more like CxxC than we have been, but we don't have to. Still plenty of room in the north to expand. It's not particularly GOOD land, but it's there. I still think the land between us and Sumeria needs to be our land grab."
Yeah... I think we can start packing in towns tighter than before, since we have less territory to go. Although... we might want a fatter spread to the East and South since Sumeria hasn't sent much there yet. I agree we should concentrate on expanding towards Sumeria for now. Of course later when we discover that we could have gotten... just kidding!
I'll wait to play until I've read what you think on this teammate, especially research and merging workers into Lyons.
"Might I ask why you want ROP's so badly - they will give your enemies access to all your land?"
Great question Darski! Part of the reason I started this succession game comes as to illustrate/talk about how these work. You can read the technical article here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=44999, or a "Deity builder" article on this here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=122419. The most relevant part seems 10: "You’ll trade your way through to Writing once the techs start pouring in. You’ll build embassies with ALL civs, with your immediate neighbours first. You’ll sign RoP with ALL of them. You give techs, gold, luxuries whatever is reasonably necessary in exchange. You do this to avoid unwanted wars. The AI will not attack you, normally, with RoP signed providing you keep up your good reputation and stay true to your deals. If you can trade workers from other civs, just do it, the earlier on you do it the more they’ll get slowed down in building infrastructure and it'll hurt them, specially if they have the Industrious trait."
In other words, Rights of Passage will *more or less* ensure that the AIs won't attack us. The question comes as how this works. Sure enough, I didn't program the game. But, I have seen in several games that when you sign an RoP with an AI its attitude towards you will jump from "annoyed" to "polite". The AI will attack more if they feel annoyed with you, and less if they feel polite with you. Since we have max aggressiveness on, all the AIs pretty much will hate us and basically will want to attack us if they feel poorly towards us after the expansion phase has completed. The RoPs change their attitude in this respect.
Still, I think more exists here. When an AI attacks you, it doesn't declare war from its own territory, then march in, and then attack you... it marches into your territory and then declares war... so if an AI attacks us while we have an RoP signed with them, this almost surely means they don't just get a penalty for declaring war with an RoP signed... they full engage in RoP rape. RoP rape, at least for human-AI interactions and I suspect for AI-AI interactions, really messes the raper up in terms of attitude. In other words, if the AI *were* to engage in RoP rape on us, it would strongly sully the over AI tribes's attitudes towards them. Consequently, all the other AIs would either attack them or start thinking about it. So, the AI who RoPed us would soon enough have problems of its own, even if it beat us up. I think there's some mechanism in the programming which has this sort of effect.
There do exist other ways to keep the AI's attitude in check. Still, as BamSpeedy says "If you have a power lead, most of the good effects (negative numbers) are halved. ROP is one of them that still gives you the full points no matter who has the power lead." We'll probably get the power lead at some point, I'd think, with our expansion. Also, I find it interesting that you find SirPleb, Moonsinger, and Charis commenting on his article. Perhaps some of his info changed with Conquests and its subsequent patches... but it looks like nothing did, especially since Drakan refered to it, and I've used RoPs as the basic part of my strategy on several games now.
Sure enough, there probably exists much more to the likelihood of an AI attacking you than attitude. But, sure enough attitude seems one of those factors, and you can control attitude... some of those factors (like the militaristic nature of some tribes) we probably can't or simply can't control. RoPs work as the simplest and most effective way to control the attitude of ALL AIs (Bamspeedy's article indicates Mutual Protection Pacts work well to control *a* tribe's attitude... but since they imply war with other tribes, they in effect only work for that tribe).
Great question Darski! Part of the reason I started this succession game comes as to illustrate/talk about how these work. You can read the technical article here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=44999, or a "Deity builder" article on this here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=122419. The most relevant part seems 10: "You’ll trade your way through to Writing once the techs start pouring in. You’ll build embassies with ALL civs, with your immediate neighbours first. You’ll sign RoP with ALL of them. You give techs, gold, luxuries whatever is reasonably necessary in exchange. You do this to avoid unwanted wars. The AI will not attack you, normally, with RoP signed providing you keep up your good reputation and stay true to your deals. If you can trade workers from other civs, just do it, the earlier on you do it the more they’ll get slowed down in building infrastructure and it'll hurt them, specially if they have the Industrious trait."
In other words, Rights of Passage will *more or less* ensure that the AIs won't attack us. The question comes as how this works. Sure enough, I didn't program the game. But, I have seen in several games that when you sign an RoP with an AI its attitude towards you will jump from "annoyed" to "polite". The AI will attack more if they feel annoyed with you, and less if they feel polite with you. Since we have max aggressiveness on, all the AIs pretty much will hate us and basically will want to attack us if they feel poorly towards us after the expansion phase has completed. The RoPs change their attitude in this respect.
Still, I think more exists here. When an AI attacks you, it doesn't declare war from its own territory, then march in, and then attack you... it marches into your territory and then declares war... so if an AI attacks us while we have an RoP signed with them, this almost surely means they don't just get a penalty for declaring war with an RoP signed... they full engage in RoP rape. RoP rape, at least for human-AI interactions and I suspect for AI-AI interactions, really messes the raper up in terms of attitude. In other words, if the AI *were* to engage in RoP rape on us, it would strongly sully the over AI tribes's attitudes towards them. Consequently, all the other AIs would either attack them or start thinking about it. So, the AI who RoPed us would soon enough have problems of its own, even if it beat us up. I think there's some mechanism in the programming which has this sort of effect.
There do exist other ways to keep the AI's attitude in check. Still, as BamSpeedy says "If you have a power lead, most of the good effects (negative numbers) are halved. ROP is one of them that still gives you the full points no matter who has the power lead." We'll probably get the power lead at some point, I'd think, with our expansion. Also, I find it interesting that you find SirPleb, Moonsinger, and Charis commenting on his article. Perhaps some of his info changed with Conquests and its subsequent patches... but it looks like nothing did, especially since Drakan refered to it, and I've used RoPs as the basic part of my strategy on several games now.
Sure enough, there probably exists much more to the likelihood of an AI attacking you than attitude. But, sure enough attitude seems one of those factors, and you can control attitude... some of those factors (like the militaristic nature of some tribes) we probably can't or simply can't control. RoPs work as the simplest and most effective way to control the attitude of ALL AIs (Bamspeedy's article indicates Mutual Protection Pacts work well to control *a* tribe's attitude... but since they imply war with other tribes, they in effect only work for that tribe).
Disclaimer: It's 2:45 AM here, and I'm only on the computer because I'm too tired to sleep. So anything I say may be really really stupid.
My thoughts on researching Currency were as follows: we are able to build libraries now. Those won't be the world's fastest builds, but in our core and semi-core cities we should have them up within the time that our second tech ahead is researched. At that time, we'll need something else to build, and, well, options are limited. Plus, with three luxuries now (and surplus luxes to trade for other luxes in the future), markets will be valuable happiness tools. Even with just three luxes the market will provide an extra happy face. My thought was that the sooner we get to build those, the better. It's not like we will be in a situation where we can easily say "oh well, it's wealth or units, I guess I'll build three more archers"... with any luck, the only thing that archers will do is suck down unit support.
Ironically, of the four research choices, I'd have ranked Mapmaking my fourth choice.
Pros and cons of the other choices as I see them:
Construction--most expensive tech, which is bad--but this may also mean we get to it first while others research something cheaper. It also has the merit of making the Great Wall available, which is a useful fallback for the Hanging Gardens in the unlikely event that we wouldn't get that somehow. (Which I think is unlikely.) Makes Aqueducts available, not that we have a lot of towns that really need those.
Code of Laws: Has the merit of being cheap to research (9 turns). It's not something that the AI researches a great deal. Which means that, assuming we want one of them to research Republic for us, we may want to prod them along that path by dropping CoL in their lap.
Mapmaking: To my mind, the ROPs are the ONLY thing this has going for it right now. It does open up the Harbor as a build, but our one coastal town is not ready to build one yet anyway (and when it is we can use another building type as a prebuild for it). The Great Lighthouse is obviously a non-starter. And in my experience, this is a pretty popular AI research choice (more so than either Currency or Code of Laws), so if we are going to work a trade I'd rather let them get Mapmaking and trade for it, than get Mapmaking and try to trade it away.
All that said, if you really want the ROPs going, I'll play along. But I really think either Currency or Code of Laws would be better trade bait. In fact, I will bet you one virtual penny that we see an AI with Mapmaking before either one of those techs. But if you want to switch off Currency, I'd much rather see Code of Laws, only because it will go very quickly. (My crystal ball says we actually get it in 8 turns). That would give us a chance to re-assess the situation at that time.
Note that England researched up to Polytheism rather than go for Currency. I think depending exclusively on her to give it to us is taking a risk we don't need to.
On merging workers into Lyons: I really don't think it's necessary. The limiting factor will not be those Temple of Artemis builds. Take a look at your F7 screen right now. We can't see Bad-Tibira, but it's Sumeria's #6 city. York we can see--it's a size 2 city in the middle of the jungle. Either would finish the Temple of Artemis about the time we are launching.
Now, note all those Pyramids builds. Those are actually 400 shields to finish, more than our Hanging Gardens. Judging by your last spoiler, the Sumerians should be about 11 turns from the Pyramids, if they are the first to get there. London is also building the Pyramids, though my guess is they will be woefully behind based on terrain up there. It may be worth getting Philo into Sumeria's hands so that they can build the Mausoleum of Mausollos, IF it looks like a cascade is going to hit us.
All this is a fancy way of saying that they have prebuilds going for the Hanging Gardens, but Sumeria is the closest tech-wise--and they just got Poly about 6 turns ago, so even if they are researching Monarchy I think it's about 20 turns out. THAT is the limiting factor--how fast they can get to Monarchy. If they aren't researching it now, they won't get it. So I almost hope you see them get another tech during your turnset.
Lyons is getting 8 spt right now. In a couple of turns it will grow and will then be getting 10 spt (assuming a second shield isn't corrupted, though it may be). So that 23 turns is an illusion. If we added in one worker, that would take it to 11 spt (I'm pretty sure that a second shield will be corrupt at that point). My advice re: a worker add would be to wait until Lyons grows, and see if it is actually getting 10 spt after corruption. If it is, do not add a worker (that worker will only add one shield even if it works the forest, as the other would be corrupted). We'll have 161 shields to go after the next two turns, then 9 or 10 more done on the growth turn, so either 152 or 151. At 11 spt, that's 14 turns. At 10 spt, it's 16. I don't think two turns will make the difference. I do think we should keep a couple workers around there to road/mine the non-BGs and road the forests, and if as we are getting into the late game it looks like those extra few shields could matter, go for it then. But for now I don't think adding a worker is criticial. If the difference is 9 spt vs. 11, it's a three-turn difference, and I could maybe be persuaded. But I've been thinking we need more workers, not less, so I'm reluctant to merge this early.
On Avignon worker and connecting the road: I think it's OK to connect the road. Poitiers (our southern river town) can spew out a few warriors, as it really has nothing else to do right now (this is a looking far ahead city). Leave it unconnected (it won't grow to a size that cares about luxuries anyway) and everything else can connect. I'd still crank out workers in Avignon, or at least one more worker. That will be needed in that area to irrigate all those plains and mine all those sugars in that area. Avignon was really put there to grab the iron before the Inca could, not to become a powerhouse producer.
A couple of random thoughts:
On whipping something in Orleans--I don't see the need. The library in 13 is perfectly good if we want it, if we think we need settlers instead, build those, and wait on the library. It'll be a while before we can very effectively whip the library anyway. The more I look at it, honestly, the more I think more settlers from Orleans is a good idea. There is a nice patch of land about 8-10 tiles northwest of where we're about to found our next city near the Incas. We could very possibly be able to get to that in time (and fill in in between with whatever crap is there). If we can do that, we may yet be able to get all that incense in the north. Nobody else has made a run at it. Basically, draw a mental triangle from our warrior just north of Persia, due east to the black, and then up to that jungle/marsh peninsula. We can grab some of that and we really should. IF we do that, it is an absolute must to take two of our workers and pair them up to road due north as soon as humanly possible. The pair that is about to irrigate the last tile near Tours can do that then get roading (or just get roading, Tours is fine for a bit). This land might suck... or we could even put the Forbidden Palace up there. Dreaming? Maybe. But I think it's important to be aggressive in settling right now, and I think you do too.
Finally, a few micromanagement notes:
1. If you're feeling whippy, do it in Chartres after this turn. A temple there would be quite handy to possibly block Sumeria from getting much closer.
2. Also after this turn, switch Cherbourg (harbor town) from forest to wheat, at least for that turn. It's getting a Curragh in 2 regardless, may as well try to grow it a little faster.
3. I'm an idiot, click on the Lyons city square before hitting Enter, and gain an extra beaker per turn. I'd almost say the same about Amiens, but that one gets corrupted anyway (still should work roaded forest tile on general principles).
4. I think I'd switch Rouen from granary to something more cultural (your choice).
5. Besancon should work the forest, not the lake, in my opinion--temple comes faster that way by 6 turns, at the cost of only growing at 2 fpt instead of 3. More optionally, you could switch Rouen to the two unworked BGs (workers are on scene) and give Besancon that cow, so that it could work 2 cows and a forest. That would let it grow in 6, temple in 14, and it could work BGs after that as well. Unlike Avignon, Besancon CAN be quite a good town.
My thoughts on researching Currency were as follows: we are able to build libraries now. Those won't be the world's fastest builds, but in our core and semi-core cities we should have them up within the time that our second tech ahead is researched. At that time, we'll need something else to build, and, well, options are limited. Plus, with three luxuries now (and surplus luxes to trade for other luxes in the future), markets will be valuable happiness tools. Even with just three luxes the market will provide an extra happy face. My thought was that the sooner we get to build those, the better. It's not like we will be in a situation where we can easily say "oh well, it's wealth or units, I guess I'll build three more archers"... with any luck, the only thing that archers will do is suck down unit support.
Ironically, of the four research choices, I'd have ranked Mapmaking my fourth choice.
Pros and cons of the other choices as I see them:Construction--most expensive tech, which is bad--but this may also mean we get to it first while others research something cheaper. It also has the merit of making the Great Wall available, which is a useful fallback for the Hanging Gardens in the unlikely event that we wouldn't get that somehow. (Which I think is unlikely.) Makes Aqueducts available, not that we have a lot of towns that really need those.
Code of Laws: Has the merit of being cheap to research (9 turns). It's not something that the AI researches a great deal. Which means that, assuming we want one of them to research Republic for us, we may want to prod them along that path by dropping CoL in their lap.
Mapmaking: To my mind, the ROPs are the ONLY thing this has going for it right now. It does open up the Harbor as a build, but our one coastal town is not ready to build one yet anyway (and when it is we can use another building type as a prebuild for it). The Great Lighthouse is obviously a non-starter. And in my experience, this is a pretty popular AI research choice (more so than either Currency or Code of Laws), so if we are going to work a trade I'd rather let them get Mapmaking and trade for it, than get Mapmaking and try to trade it away.
All that said, if you really want the ROPs going, I'll play along. But I really think either Currency or Code of Laws would be better trade bait. In fact, I will bet you one virtual penny that we see an AI with Mapmaking before either one of those techs. But if you want to switch off Currency, I'd much rather see Code of Laws, only because it will go very quickly. (My crystal ball says we actually get it in 8 turns). That would give us a chance to re-assess the situation at that time.
Note that England researched up to Polytheism rather than go for Currency. I think depending exclusively on her to give it to us is taking a risk we don't need to.
On merging workers into Lyons: I really don't think it's necessary. The limiting factor will not be those Temple of Artemis builds. Take a look at your F7 screen right now. We can't see Bad-Tibira, but it's Sumeria's #6 city. York we can see--it's a size 2 city in the middle of the jungle. Either would finish the Temple of Artemis about the time we are launching.
Now, note all those Pyramids builds. Those are actually 400 shields to finish, more than our Hanging Gardens. Judging by your last spoiler, the Sumerians should be about 11 turns from the Pyramids, if they are the first to get there. London is also building the Pyramids, though my guess is they will be woefully behind based on terrain up there. It may be worth getting Philo into Sumeria's hands so that they can build the Mausoleum of Mausollos, IF it looks like a cascade is going to hit us.
All this is a fancy way of saying that they have prebuilds going for the Hanging Gardens, but Sumeria is the closest tech-wise--and they just got Poly about 6 turns ago, so even if they are researching Monarchy I think it's about 20 turns out. THAT is the limiting factor--how fast they can get to Monarchy. If they aren't researching it now, they won't get it. So I almost hope you see them get another tech during your turnset.
Lyons is getting 8 spt right now. In a couple of turns it will grow and will then be getting 10 spt (assuming a second shield isn't corrupted, though it may be). So that 23 turns is an illusion. If we added in one worker, that would take it to 11 spt (I'm pretty sure that a second shield will be corrupt at that point). My advice re: a worker add would be to wait until Lyons grows, and see if it is actually getting 10 spt after corruption. If it is, do not add a worker (that worker will only add one shield even if it works the forest, as the other would be corrupted). We'll have 161 shields to go after the next two turns, then 9 or 10 more done on the growth turn, so either 152 or 151. At 11 spt, that's 14 turns. At 10 spt, it's 16. I don't think two turns will make the difference. I do think we should keep a couple workers around there to road/mine the non-BGs and road the forests, and if as we are getting into the late game it looks like those extra few shields could matter, go for it then. But for now I don't think adding a worker is criticial. If the difference is 9 spt vs. 11, it's a three-turn difference, and I could maybe be persuaded. But I've been thinking we need more workers, not less, so I'm reluctant to merge this early.
On Avignon worker and connecting the road: I think it's OK to connect the road. Poitiers (our southern river town) can spew out a few warriors, as it really has nothing else to do right now (this is a looking far ahead city). Leave it unconnected (it won't grow to a size that cares about luxuries anyway) and everything else can connect. I'd still crank out workers in Avignon, or at least one more worker. That will be needed in that area to irrigate all those plains and mine all those sugars in that area. Avignon was really put there to grab the iron before the Inca could, not to become a powerhouse producer.
A couple of random thoughts:
On whipping something in Orleans--I don't see the need. The library in 13 is perfectly good if we want it, if we think we need settlers instead, build those, and wait on the library. It'll be a while before we can very effectively whip the library anyway. The more I look at it, honestly, the more I think more settlers from Orleans is a good idea. There is a nice patch of land about 8-10 tiles northwest of where we're about to found our next city near the Incas. We could very possibly be able to get to that in time (and fill in in between with whatever crap is there). If we can do that, we may yet be able to get all that incense in the north. Nobody else has made a run at it. Basically, draw a mental triangle from our warrior just north of Persia, due east to the black, and then up to that jungle/marsh peninsula. We can grab some of that and we really should. IF we do that, it is an absolute must to take two of our workers and pair them up to road due north as soon as humanly possible. The pair that is about to irrigate the last tile near Tours can do that then get roading (or just get roading, Tours is fine for a bit). This land might suck... or we could even put the Forbidden Palace up there. Dreaming? Maybe. But I think it's important to be aggressive in settling right now, and I think you do too.
Finally, a few micromanagement notes:
1. If you're feeling whippy, do it in Chartres after this turn. A temple there would be quite handy to possibly block Sumeria from getting much closer.
2. Also after this turn, switch Cherbourg (harbor town) from forest to wheat, at least for that turn. It's getting a Curragh in 2 regardless, may as well try to grow it a little faster.
3. I'm an idiot, click on the Lyons city square before hitting Enter, and gain an extra beaker per turn. I'd almost say the same about Amiens, but that one gets corrupted anyway (still should work roaded forest tile on general principles).
4. I think I'd switch Rouen from granary to something more cultural (your choice).
5. Besancon should work the forest, not the lake, in my opinion--temple comes faster that way by 6 turns, at the cost of only growing at 2 fpt instead of 3. More optionally, you could switch Rouen to the two unworked BGs (workers are on scene) and give Besancon that cow, so that it could work 2 cows and a forest. That would let it grow in 6, temple in 14, and it could work BGs after that as well. Unlike Avignon, Besancon CAN be quite a good town.
"To my mind, the ROPs are the ONLY thing this has going for it right now."
Yeah... 2:45 A.M. Mapmaking will allow that one coastal town to train galleys. Galleys will get us faster contacts than curraghs. I think you have a point about its popularity... it just seems like these guys don't have the commerce to do much research.
"Take a look at your F7 screen right now. We can't see Bad-Tibira, but it's Sumeria's #6 city. York we can see--it's a size 2 city in the middle of the jungle. Either would finish the Temple of Artemis about the time we are launching."
Thanks, I hadn't think of checking that. Let's hope no other AIs have Polytheism yet.
We'll go Code of Laws.
Yeah... 2:45 A.M. Mapmaking will allow that one coastal town to train galleys. Galleys will get us faster contacts than curraghs. I think you have a point about its popularity... it just seems like these guys don't have the commerce to do much research.
"Take a look at your F7 screen right now. We can't see Bad-Tibira, but it's Sumeria's #6 city. York we can see--it's a size 2 city in the middle of the jungle. Either would finish the Temple of Artemis about the time we are launching."
Thanks, I hadn't think of checking that. Let's hope no other AIs have Polytheism yet.
We'll go Code of Laws.
darski
Regent in Training
I noticed that Pasargadae (sp) seems to have no improvements. that is the 2nd Persian City unless they have had a spot of difficulty before this. It just seems strange to see a Persian City so unimproved and your intel should be fairly recent if you just founded there.
... one of those things that makes you go
... one of those things that makes you go
Darski,
It's probably a bit out of date. Though, that said, we do have a couple of Persian slaves that we purchased, so hopefully that slowed them down.
Doug,
I see a settler just out of Paris; I assume that is headed to our south coastal site. If not, well, that's where it's going now.
I am going to switch to Currency. I want to try to get medieval as soon as possible; with two Scientific civs on our doorsteps, I want to be ahead of them when we get there to hopefully benefit from their free techs.
It's probably a bit out of date. Though, that said, we do have a couple of Persian slaves that we purchased, so hopefully that slowed them down.
Doug,
I see a settler just out of Paris; I assume that is headed to our south coastal site. If not, well, that's where it's going now.
I am going to switch to Currency. I want to try to get medieval as soon as possible; with two Scientific civs on our doorsteps, I want to be ahead of them when we get there to hopefully benefit from their free techs.
Well, I've been a busy busy boy. I think you'll have some big fun this turnset. Also, remind me to get you my address for that virtual penny. 
Annoyance note: Please do not chop tundra forest (e.g. the dyes). If you need to chop down there, chop the grass forests. Tundra + forest = good. Tundra without forest = crap.
I switch to Currency (due in 12, 90%, +2 gpt).
Switch Brest to worker. Ditto Bayonne. We're woefully short of workers, in my opinion.
Marseilles archer-horse. I'd much rather build horses than archers at this point, for upgrades.
MM Paris for an extra commerce, Orleans to grow in 1 instead of 2 (which will cost the library 1 turn, at most).
I also get whippy: Besancon (2 citizens) and Chartres (1 citizen) get insta-libraries.
Press Enter.
And STOP, but do NOT push Enter to start the next turn PLEASE without reading and discussing the below info!!!!!
There is tech trading to be done before the turn ends.
We are up Literature, Currency and Monarchy on everyone. Additionally, Inca and India do not have Horseback Riding or Writing (or, obviously, anything stemming from Writing).
Everyone but us has Construction. England, Sumeria, and Persia have Mapmaking as well. This means that those three ONLY lack Currency to go medieval.
Gold is as follows:
Us = 314
England = 164
Inca = 107
Sumeria = 92
Persia = 2
India = 1
Our trick is to get as many techs as humanly possible out of the AI, all the gold, and keep Lit and Monarchy away from Sumeria and Persia so we can use those as trade bait for their first-level medieval techs.
Here is my suggested trade order, but before you do it, we may want to talk this out in case I'm wrong.
But I am pretty sure this is the way to go here.
1. Trade Sumeria Currency for Construction and all 92 gold (they will do this). This will put them medieval. See what tech they get. (Construction before Mapmaking, as this is a higher-value tech).
2. Trade Persia Currency for Mapmaking and all 2 of their gold. I am sure they will do this. See what tech they get in the medieval.
3. Literature AND Monarchy should be some pretty good trade bait for one tech; then we can swap that tech for the other one if they got something different. I would trade with Sumeria FIRST, as of the two they are more dangerous by far. This way when we trade with Persia, THEY have two medieval techs and not Sumeria.
4. Only after this do we go to England and see what we can get their cash for. We may want to leave them out in the cold, or we may want to sell them Currency or Literature for all their gold. You MAY find that you need to get England's gold for Currency before trading Lit/Monarchy around in order to facilitate a trade; if so, do it.
Also feel free to trade gpt for a tech.
5. India and Inca can bite me.
6. Once all the trading is done, set research to something. My preferred tech line has us beelining Mono-Theology-Education-Astronomy (for Cop's)-Banking-Economics (for Smiths), and let the AI deal with the bottom of the tech tree. A stopover for Chivalry might be okay, though a trade there is better. I am very much in favor of Knights Templar, by the way. That's a very nice deterrent.
Also, I have NOT signed ROP with anyone, but you can feel free to do this at any time.
I have one settler on an auto-move to the south to where I intend to build with it. It's not a good location but I'm oil-fishing, and there are at least two forests to work, and a river. If you have a better idea, go for it. I think that one would conclude our southern settling, except that a town on the extreme corner would eventually get two whales. That may even be a better spot for the settler, but you can decide that after the automove is over (it'll not be out of the way to get there).
In the north, I have two settlers heading that way. Your call what to do with them. The northern one is only 17 turns from an incense grab. There is one pretty nice spot along the way that can get two sugars, a game, and an oasis (you can figure out where); I would recommend beelining to that square with one settler, and hopefully filling in along the way. If we can get to that strategic point, we may be able to claim the northwest corner of the continent.
It may be time to start thinking about prebuilds for Cop's and Smith's, as well as the Forbidden Palace. Right now I'd put the FP in Rouen and be content with it there, but I can be persuaded to think bigger than that.
Annoyance note: Please do not chop tundra forest (e.g. the dyes). If you need to chop down there, chop the grass forests. Tundra + forest = good. Tundra without forest = crap.
I switch to Currency (due in 12, 90%, +2 gpt).
Switch Brest to worker. Ditto Bayonne. We're woefully short of workers, in my opinion.
Marseilles archer-horse. I'd much rather build horses than archers at this point, for upgrades.
MM Paris for an extra commerce, Orleans to grow in 1 instead of 2 (which will cost the library 1 turn, at most).
I also get whippy: Besancon (2 citizens) and Chartres (1 citizen) get insta-libraries.
Press Enter.
Spoiler :
- library. Rheims settler-barracks. Cherbough curragh (oops) - curragh. Sumerian archer seems to be just exploring. I have been letting the Persian warrior-settler pair wander through.And STOP, but do NOT push Enter to start the next turn PLEASE without reading and discussing the below info!!!!!
There is tech trading to be done before the turn ends.
We are up Literature, Currency and Monarchy on everyone. Additionally, Inca and India do not have Horseback Riding or Writing (or, obviously, anything stemming from Writing).
Everyone but us has Construction. England, Sumeria, and Persia have Mapmaking as well. This means that those three ONLY lack Currency to go medieval.
Gold is as follows:
Us = 314
England = 164
Inca = 107
Sumeria = 92
Persia = 2
India = 1
Our trick is to get as many techs as humanly possible out of the AI, all the gold, and keep Lit and Monarchy away from Sumeria and Persia so we can use those as trade bait for their first-level medieval techs.
Here is my suggested trade order, but before you do it, we may want to talk this out in case I'm wrong.
But I am pretty sure this is the way to go here.1. Trade Sumeria Currency for Construction and all 92 gold (they will do this). This will put them medieval. See what tech they get. (Construction before Mapmaking, as this is a higher-value tech).
2. Trade Persia Currency for Mapmaking and all 2 of their gold. I am sure they will do this. See what tech they get in the medieval.
3. Literature AND Monarchy should be some pretty good trade bait for one tech; then we can swap that tech for the other one if they got something different. I would trade with Sumeria FIRST, as of the two they are more dangerous by far. This way when we trade with Persia, THEY have two medieval techs and not Sumeria.
4. Only after this do we go to England and see what we can get their cash for. We may want to leave them out in the cold, or we may want to sell them Currency or Literature for all their gold. You MAY find that you need to get England's gold for Currency before trading Lit/Monarchy around in order to facilitate a trade; if so, do it.
Also feel free to trade gpt for a tech.
5. India and Inca can bite me.
6. Once all the trading is done, set research to something. My preferred tech line has us beelining Mono-Theology-Education-Astronomy (for Cop's)-Banking-Economics (for Smiths), and let the AI deal with the bottom of the tech tree. A stopover for Chivalry might be okay, though a trade there is better. I am very much in favor of Knights Templar, by the way. That's a very nice deterrent.
Also, I have NOT signed ROP with anyone, but you can feel free to do this at any time.
I have one settler on an auto-move to the south to where I intend to build with it. It's not a good location but I'm oil-fishing, and there are at least two forests to work, and a river. If you have a better idea, go for it. I think that one would conclude our southern settling, except that a town on the extreme corner would eventually get two whales. That may even be a better spot for the settler, but you can decide that after the automove is over (it'll not be out of the way to get there).
In the north, I have two settlers heading that way. Your call what to do with them. The northern one is only 17 turns from an incense grab
. There is one pretty nice spot along the way that can get two sugars, a game, and an oasis (you can figure out where); I would recommend beelining to that square with one settler, and hopefully filling in along the way. If we can get to that strategic point, we may be able to claim the northwest corner of the continent.It may be time to start thinking about prebuilds for Cop's and Smith's, as well as the Forbidden Palace. Right now I'd put the FP in Rouen and be content with it there, but I can be persuaded to think bigger than that.
"Persian warrior steams into Toulouse's borders!!!"
lol... we don't have our RoPs signed yet. Once we do, I'll think you'll learn not to sweat this sort of thing. At least... eventually. Especially if you check my screenies here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6928291#post6928291 I have 9 Deity-level tribes having their units run all over my territory in screenie number 2 (in screenie number 1 also, but you can't really see it as well there).
"Everyone but us has Construction. England, Sumeria, and Persia have Mapmaking as well. This means that those three ONLY lack Currency to go medieval."
I think you've tried to trick me or I missed something. They have Construction and Mapmaking... but what about Code of Laws. They can't go medieval without that.
"1. Trade Sumeria Currency for Construction and all 92 gold (they will do this). This will put them medieval. See what tech they get. (Construction before Mapmaking, as this is a higher-value tech)."
Did I miss Code of Laws? Sorry... I don't mean to come off as sarcastic. Anyways, I think we should trade with Lizzie first, she has the biggest stash and her characteristics make her empire the "money" tribe. She gets Currency for Construction and we try to get her cash. If she won't take Currency for Construction, we give her Currency and Monarchy for Construction and cash. Then we play around with Sumeria. I think we research Code of Laws, and then The Republic. We try to use The Republic as trade bait. Maybe even Literature. Or... if they get the lower end of the tech tree... and they won't take The Republic, we research Monotheism and trade it for Feudalism/Engineering.
"A stopover for Chivalry might be okay, though a trade there is better. I am very much in favor of Knights Templar, by the way. That's a very nice deterrent."
I like to build that a lot myself too. But, I don't think it will come as all that necessary.
"It's not a good location but I'm oil-fishing, and there are at least two forests to work, and a river."
Or aluminum mining perhaps? Who knows... by that point we really should come as in a position where we can easily trade for those resources, so I wouldn't sweat it in the slightest.
"Right now I'd put the FP in Rouen and be content with it there, but I can be persuaded to think bigger than that."
Rouen's the middle lake town, right? Either there or Marseilles.
"My preferred tech line has us beelining Mono-Theology-Education-Astronomy (for Cop's)-Banking-Economics (for Smiths)"
Talk about a beeline. This may work out well, but I think we'll want to play this somewhat by ear. Printing Press can make an awfully good trading tech. We should try and get as many wonders (including the Great Library, I'd think) from here on out... at least to try and control cascade difficulties.
Did I miss Code of Laws?
lol... we don't have our RoPs signed yet. Once we do, I'll think you'll learn not to sweat this sort of thing. At least... eventually. Especially if you check my screenies here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6928291#post6928291 I have 9 Deity-level tribes having their units run all over my territory in screenie number 2 (in screenie number 1 also, but you can't really see it as well there).
"Everyone but us has Construction. England, Sumeria, and Persia have Mapmaking as well. This means that those three ONLY lack Currency to go medieval."
I think you've tried to trick me or I missed something. They have Construction and Mapmaking... but what about Code of Laws. They can't go medieval without that.
"1. Trade Sumeria Currency for Construction and all 92 gold (they will do this). This will put them medieval. See what tech they get. (Construction before Mapmaking, as this is a higher-value tech)."
Did I miss Code of Laws? Sorry... I don't mean to come off as sarcastic. Anyways, I think we should trade with Lizzie first, she has the biggest stash and her characteristics make her empire the "money" tribe. She gets Currency for Construction and we try to get her cash. If she won't take Currency for Construction, we give her Currency and Monarchy for Construction and cash. Then we play around with Sumeria. I think we research Code of Laws, and then The Republic. We try to use The Republic as trade bait. Maybe even Literature. Or... if they get the lower end of the tech tree... and they won't take The Republic, we research Monotheism and trade it for Feudalism/Engineering.
"A stopover for Chivalry might be okay, though a trade there is better. I am very much in favor of Knights Templar, by the way. That's a very nice deterrent."
I like to build that a lot myself too. But, I don't think it will come as all that necessary.
"It's not a good location but I'm oil-fishing, and there are at least two forests to work, and a river."
Or aluminum mining perhaps? Who knows... by that point we really should come as in a position where we can easily trade for those resources, so I wouldn't sweat it in the slightest.
"Right now I'd put the FP in Rouen and be content with it there, but I can be persuaded to think bigger than that."
Rouen's the middle lake town, right? Either there or Marseilles.
"My preferred tech line has us beelining Mono-Theology-Education-Astronomy (for Cop's)-Banking-Economics (for Smiths)"
Talk about a beeline. This may work out well, but I think we'll want to play this somewhat by ear. Printing Press can make an awfully good trading tech. We should try and get as many wonders (including the Great Library, I'd think) from here on out... at least to try and control cascade difficulties.
Did I miss Code of Laws?
