Always Peace

[DWetzel]

Was kidding about Sumerian settlers.

I did consider the trade for Feudalism and the swap to Sun Tzu. My thought was that, with Paris building 400 spt in 17 turns (and, in Republic, this will go down--we're working two hills and a mountain that are losing a shield due to despotism) and us getting Astronomy in just a few less than that (and if we intersperse a Republic in here, we're STILL okay), we didn't need to keep that prebuild going.

Sun Tzu may not have built, but it was going to be close. We had 204 shields in Paris, and, well, if we can get 400 shields heading to Astronomy, we would have been up around 500 shields on Sun Tzu by the time it was time to switch. A 100-shield waste seemed unnecessary.

 

[DWetzel]

I may run some calculations on Republic now vs. Astronomy. If you want the wonders first, do Astronomy then Republic; both should finish before we get Republic I think. Then we can hit the Banking/Econ/Navigation end of the tree in absurdly fast time.

 

[Spoonwood]

Goes back and re-reads charter. Then goes to finish turn set.... *shakin' in his boots*.

 

[DWetzel]

Urk? Dare I ask? Maybe a stop?

 

[Spoonwood]

1. Go back and re-read the charter before you play, please.
2. In light of the following, perhaps the basic strategy works better on a pangea or archipelago map. We should still do well.
3. Finish astronomy, current wonder bulids, and current improvement builds... we don't want to waste shields. You can research navigation if you like or you can research tech C... I think you'll find this one obvious once you see the turn-set.
4. Remeber Orleans and Pasagarde? Well... watch Orleans very closely.

Spoiler :

Pre-turn Trade Sumeria Monotheism for Feudalism and 23 gold. Paris-Sun Tzu's. I'll mine the wheat (I forgot at first, then finally got around to it at the end). Trade Inca Monarchy for 92 gold. Trade Gandhi Engineering for 11 gpt and 18 gold. Switch Besancon to Cathedral. Rouen uses garssland. Bordeau grassland, Harbourtown uses 2nd whale.

1-340 Spot Persian spears on our land (screenie). Spot Sumerian galley (screenie). Change Lyons so it uses shield tiles. SC due in 17. MM Dijon for growth.

2-350 Persian spears go home. Amiens-temple-marketplace. Brest-temple-marketplace. New Rheims-library-courthouse. 2 workers added into Lyons (I should have check MapStat before doing this... oh well). Lux. to 10% Astro. due in 11. Rouen-wonder city later? Trade Gandhi Feudalism for The Republic. I change my mind on this, and start the revolt. 4 turn anarchy!

3-360 some movement

4-370 move boats around.

5-380 move around more.

6-390 Joanie leader of The French Repbulic! lux. 10%, Sistine Chapel due in 11. Avignon buys aqueduct to grow faster. MM Cherbourg. Sci. at 60%. Astro. due in 7 turns.

7-400 4 sield returns. Avignon-temple. Cherbourg-galley-galley. Bayonne-library-temple. New Tours-library-harbor. Indians start on Sun Tzu's. Buy slave from Gandhi. Inter-turn...

An Incan warrior sneaks up to New Paris (the junk town). He attacks our horseman and redlines it down to one hitpoint. Chasqui scout attacks our warrior in Incan territory and it runs away after our warrior redlines it.

8-410 I check with everyone... and the charter... and see we could sign military alliances for literature. But, I don't want to tarnish our reputation by signing peace 6 turns in or so and consequently, I don't sign MAs. Cash-rush barracks in Bayonne. Switch some cities to pikes (anybody that doesn't have 30+ shields on an improvement basically). lux. down to 0%. Rouen switches to a courthouse... still some corruption there. I activate some spears and horses. Workers move to the back/middle.

9-420 Persians attack us in the tundra town on the coast all the way out east! It promotes our warrior to a veteran. We sink an Incan galley, our galley at one hit point. Amiens-pike-horse. Bayonne-barracks-pike. Strasbourg-library-trebuchet. Rennes-aqueduct-pike. Our horse kills a chasqui scout in our territory. Reinforce Strasbourg. Go broke on upgrades.

10-430 Harbour town-medieval infantry. Lose warrior in Orleans by Persian horseman. Orlean-market-pike. Brest-pike-pike. Rheims-aqueduct-pikeman. Bordeaux-aqueduct-pike. Harbourtown-medieval infantry (I think I cash-rushed it)-pike. New Orleans-pike-horseman. Lose horseman *near* Orleans attacking Persian horseman in our borders. Kill Persian horseman in our cultural borders. Attack Incan Archer near New Paris, as it has two Persian spears, an Incan warrior and an Incan Archer... it redlines and retreats. New Paris looks like junk, we don't want a third war, and almost surely sacked... so... I gift away New Paris to Gilgy. Galley moves into Harbourtown. Upgrade a spear to a pike.

I think you know tech "C" now. The Persians don't have iron, but they do have horses. I saw 3 or 4 of their horses marching through their territory, but I lost them somehow... I think I had a horse on a hill for a bit. Orleans comes as the most vulnerable since it has only one square along its cultural borders. All/most other cities have two, so we can wait until Persian or Incan units step on in and then wack them with medieval infantry or horses. I don't think the Inca have any resources. Get some pikes to the front, and get those medieval infantry to the front also. I don't see this lasting longer than your turn set if you do this right. In fact, go ahead and play it out until we have peace with both tribes... if that doesn't take too long.

 

[DWetzel]

Hmm... without looking at the save, it could be worse.

This does bring up an obscure use for settlers though--cram 'em in wherever we can, even if it completely sucks. Then, when it's time to give peace, voila--here, have a city.

I guess you sort of decided against the alliance, but I think I plan to ply Gilgamesh with all sort of goodies when taking over. I don't think we can afford a true two-front war.

Will load the save up here shortly and give it a good long think. Then I'll probably discard all my thinking and just wing it anyway.

 

[Spoonwood]

We could also use "combat" workers I suppose also.

 

[DWetzel]

Well, I decided to play 10 turns. I hope you aren't upset.

430AD: Read charter. CA2, Notepad open.

Put Avignon taxman back to work (we have war happiness!). Set science to 60% (+97 gpt, due in 2).

Do a funky warrior shuffle to get a warrior close to Marseilles for upgrade. I'm more worried about Persia than Inca due to the war front.

Tours cathedral-courthouse (due in 1, no shield waste). At 22% corrupt right now this is marginal but will be of some benefit. And it lets the shields be useful so I can make more pikes.

New Lyons aqueduct-temple for the same reason. It clearly does not need a temple now but it frees up the town. And an aqueduct can come later.

With no iron, Persia doesn't scare me, until they get Invention. Then I get a little scared (but only a little) of longbows.

Pray a little that we don't get spear-attacked by Persia in two places. Decide that prayer won't be answered by a computer. Instead shuffle a couple units so at least New Tours has two warriors in it now. Poitiers and New Lyons are temporarily empty (I pull the horse from New Lyons to Orleans).

Hit Enter and watch the chaos...

Spoiler :

IBT: Not much happens. Incan Chasqui impales himself on a pike at Bayonne. Persian spear attacks at New Tours, defending warrior redlined but promotes. Persia pillages a road near Harbourtown/New Rheims. Cuts our iron... our spare iron. Oh well.

Oh, and Orleans' warrior is a stud, redline/retreating two horses while losing only one HP.

440 (1): Tours court-trebuchet (MMed to come in 3). Rouen court-horse (in 2 turns, yummy). New Lyons temple-pike. New Rheims switches from court to pike. A courthouse in a size 2 city does not appeal to me.

Orleans has some heavy action around it: SIX horses (two redlined) and a warrior can attack, three horses + warrior in our borders. An archer also in our borders but he can't hurt us this turn.

In the north I can see two Incan horses and one Chasqui, but they are outside our land.

Rush barracks in Orleans for 112g. Reduce science to 50% (Astro in 1, +147gpt).

MI kills warrior at Orleans. Our horse gets crushed by their horse (now 3/4, dammit). MI kills pillager spear (redlined) next to New Rheims. We can hook that road up farther to the north. Horse there retreats to Harbourtown. Galley stays put. Possibly overconfident, I switch Harbourtown back to a harbor. I don't see a massive run at us from one size 5 tundra city.

Add in a worker at Lyons. Will add one more soon and get Sistine a turn sooner.

Actually you were right not to mine the wheat at Paris--what does it gain us? Nothing. We'll want it irrigated later to boost growth.

IBT: Good stuff. Two horses attack Orleans' 2/3 MI, which results in a 3/5 MI. Two Incan horses come out of the fog and impale themselves on a pike at Bayonne (it promotes to veteran).

As far as attacks go, that is all. Will check movement.

450 (2): Astronomy in. Chivalry in 5 at 50% (+152 gpt)? Oh, okay.

BERLIN (Germany) COMPLETES KNIGHTS TEMPLAR. Poo. Reconsider Chivalry. Decide to do it anyway. A few Knights will do wonders for us.

Orleans barracks-pike. Chartres cathedral-university. Strasbourg expands, bringing that horse in its borders (not that we need it).

Paris switches Sun Tzu to Cop's (due in 8).

Nobody will talk peace.

Unit count: Persia has 3 archers in our borders near Orleans, and one archer on the hill near Harbourtown. Inca have five horses and a Chasqui near Avignon, with two horses, a spear, two archers, and two warriors just outside our borders.

MI kills archer at Orleans. MI kills archer at Orleans , but is redlined outside the city. At least he'll soak up an attack!

MM around Paris (still Cops in 8, but I gave a hill to Orleans), Orleans pike in 2. Add in 2 workers at Marseilles (cathedral in 3 instead of 4). Add a second worker at Lyons (Sistine in 4 instead of 5).

Temple to MI in Avignon (waste a shield).

MI dies attacking Incan horse on hill (but redlines it). Horse dies attacking Incan Chasqui but redlines it. Hurry a horse in Bayonne for 64g.

In south, 3/3 horse d. Persian archer on hill, becomes 3/4 horse. MI in Bayonne retreats a horse. Two horses (Strasbourg, Tours) come to Brest, Brest pike to Bayonne. New Orleans warrior to Brest. Warrior shuffle Rheims-Amiens-Rouen-New Orleans. Rheims now empty, but it's RIGHT in the middle of our empire.

With Astronomy in, our redlined galley and our curragh make to the sea (but not the ocean, hehe).

MM Cherbourg, Caravel in 2 instead of 3.

Attacking this turn likely: 1 Persian archer at Orleans (no worry), and our MI will die there. Three Incan horses at Avignon vs. a pike, a horse, and an archer... the latter two fortified. If we can get by the next 2-3 turns we should be okay.

IBT: Sing songs about that redlined MI. He killed an attacking warrior (promoting), killed an attacking archer (redlined, promoting), and died on the third archer, redlining it.

Three horses die at Orleans, but they take our pike with it.

Incan horse dies at Bayonne.

Incan horses run PAST Avignon. Oh, no you don't!

460 (3): Avignon MI-horse. Rouen horse-horse. Amiens horse-horse. Bayonne horse-pike. Bordeaux pike-market. Rennes pike-temple.

Nobody will talk.

In our borders... at Orleans, 3/4 horse, 3/3 archer, 1/4 horse, 3/3 archer, 1/3 archer, 1/3 horse.

In the south... nobody. Nobody even spotted, though a galley entered that city.

In the north... hoo, boy.

A 1/3 horse outside Bayonne, no big deal.

South of Avignon: 4/4, 3/3, 3/3 horses.

On hill closest to Avignon: 3/3 Chasqui, 3/3 horse, 3/3 horse.

On second hill near Avignon: 4/4 spear, 4/4 Chasqui, 3/3 warrior.

Lizzie, you doll... you have 10 gpt and 33g for dyes? SOLD!


Combat: 5/5 MI d. 3/3 archer at Orleans (3/5).

3/3 archer d. 3/4 horse (1/3).

Take a risk, doesn't work: 2/3 MI loses to 3/3 archer (2/4).

At Avignon: 3/3 horse from Rouen d. 4/4 horse (2/3).

3/3 horse from Amiens d. 3/3 horse (4/4).

3/3 horse in Avignon d. 3/3 horse (2/3), returns to Avignon.

3/3 archer d. 3/3 Chasqui on hill (3/4).

3/3 MI retreats 3/3 horse (3/3).

4/4 horse at Bayonne d. 1/4 horse, returns to Bayonne.

4/4 horse from Brest d. 3/3 horse on iron hill (2/4).


==========================

Hurry Pike in Brest (48g) as there seem to be a few baddies there in Juli. Upgrade 3/3 warrior to MI at Orleans.

Add a worker in at Rheims (gives 8 gpt, growing to size 7 and working incense hill) and pike in 1 instead of 2.

IBT: Four horses die at Orleans. Our horse near Avignon dies. No other attacks, but lots of movement.

470 (4): Orleans pike-pike. Lyons and Rheims riot (war weariness setting in). Tours trebuchet-archer (it's about to get some action). Marseilles riots. So does Avignon. Cherbourg caravel-caravel. Brest pike-pike. New Rheims pike-trebuchet.

Lux to 20% to take care of war weariness.

Still nobody talking.

Unit check in our borders:

Three Persian archers on mountain outside Tours. Two archers + two horses just beyond that outside our borders.

Nobody at Orleans.

In the north: Incan 3/3 archer, 3/3 archer, 3/3 warrior at Brest. North of Avignon: 4/4 Chasqui. On iron outside Avignon: 4/4 spear, 3/3 warrior, 3/3 horse. On second hill: 4/4 archer, 3/3 warrior.

Combat... at Avignon:

3/3 MI loses to 4/4 spear (1/4).

4/4 horse d. 3/3 warrior on hill (5/5).

2/3 horse loses to 4/4 Chasqui (3/4).

3/3 MI from Bayonne loses to bionic Chasqui (2/5).

4/4 horse from Bayonne d. 3/3 horse on iron hill (4/4), returns to Bayonne.

3/4 archer d. 1/3 spear on iron hill (2/4).

At Brest:

4/4 horse d. 3/3 warrior (4/4).

IBT: Two archers and a horse die on our pike at Brest (now elite).

Persians thinking about moving past Tours. Oh, no!


480 (5): Rheims pike-pike (not so empty any more!) Toulouse cathedral-pike. Rouen horse-horse. New Orleans horse-horse.


INCA WILL TALK. They will accept peace for free. So I take it. (Didn't even tempt myself by wondering what might have been.) Then, to cement our peace, I sell him some nice hash for 10 gpt + 13g.

Persia, on the other hand, will not talk.

Unit check (just the Persians): three horses 2SE of Tours. Two archers just outside Tours. One archer on the mountain, and another on the grass just below that.

Combat: Trebuchet dings an archer at Tours. Horse kills horse, returns to Rheims.

I work the warrior shuffle to bring another unit to Rheims. Also move an elite MI toward the Tours area.

Chivalry in 2 at +71 gpt.

IBT: Four horses die or retreat (2 of each) on that MI. He doesn't get a leader though. Oh well.

490 (6): Orleans pike-pike. Marseilles cathedral-horse (will be a knight). Amiens horse-market.

Drop science to 40% (Chivalry still in 1, +130 gpt).

Jerksees thinks peace is a great idea. So I take it. We are fully at peace.

I cement the peace with a great deal: dyes for 3 gpt + 180g shipping and handling.

So no more combat.

Lux still at 20%... for now.

Switch builds:

Rheims pike to temple.
Tours archer to university (and MM for growth).
Strasbourg trebuchet to aqueduct.
Orleans pike-university (and MM for growth).
Toulouse pike-university.
New Rheims trebuchet-barracks. (This seems weird, but it can spit out 4 spt, will only ever be a size 2 town... I see it as a crappy military producer. I'd even not mind walls here.)
Rouen horse-pike. (It's fairly vulnerable as a sneak point for Sumeria and only has a warrior.)
Avignon barracks-temple.
Bayonne pike-temple.
Brest pike-aqueduct (and MM for shields).
New Orleans horse-aqueduct.

Don't laugh, but there's a barricade near Amiens. I felt like it. Protecting the FP = good.

IBT: Lots of Persians leave.

500 (7): Chivalry in. Nobody local has it. Banking in 7 at 60% (+14 gpt after builds) with 20% lux. We have 714g in the bank.

Besancon cathedral-university.
Rouen pike-university.
Grenoble cathedral-university.
New Lyons pike-aqueduct.

Put Paris back on hill, not that it ever mattered. It kicks out 27 spt (which will be 40 spt in golden age, if my math is right).

510 (8): It's ROP time:

India gives all 13g.
England would give like 5g, so I grant for free.
Ditto Sumeria.

Lyons SISTINE CHAPEL - university (max shields; needs 1 worker add).
New Tours harbor-aqueduct.
Get a lawn for the palace.

Sumeria starts Leo's Workshop. They alone have Invention. They will not part with it for Theology AND Lit, AND 250g (would take about 370). So I decline for now.

520 (10): Cherbourg caravel-caravel (expect to repeat this ad nauseam). It is maxed out at 9 spt right now, no growth, size 6. I'd leave it that way for a while.

Upgrade galley to caravel in Cherbourg for 30g (this is the one that was hanging out in Harbourtown).

And... I'm spent.

Copernicus comes in 1 turn. After that, Paris can prebuild a bank with a colosseum. I think it can normal-build Smith's once we get it. Or you can backtrack for Music Theory as discussed (we should get MT in 4 or 5 turns, likely 5), and prebuild Smiths with Bach's. At 600 shields, at 27 spt, that's 22 turns, so we can even get in a couple other techs before economics. Navigation might be a good choice there (nudge-nudge).

Alternatively, if you really want to trade for Invention, we can get that, all 26 of Sumeria's gpt, and all 35 of their gold for Theology + Chivalry, and then use Leo's as a prebuild for Smith's. Keep in mind that as Sumeria has no iron and Knights Templar is built, I'm not too worried about them having Chivalry short-term. If we do this, then IMO we should take Economics right after Banking, to make sure we don't get sniped by the other continent. (This would also allow us to do some more useful research, IMO, in the golden age, and build toward's Newton's and Bach's.) We can be at Economics in 12 turns at our current science rate, at which point we would be halfway to Smith's, give or take.

Thinking tech longer-term, I want to get to the next age ASAP as I want Steam (for rails), Sanitation, and Theory of Evolution as fast as we can get them. So I would skip the Printing Press/Democracy/Free Artistry path for now. We have 8 mandatory techs, plus Economics, plus maybe Navigation. Skip the others. We can come back for Sheakspeare's if we need to.

I am really really really frustrated by my inability to find other land. I do finally have the caravel ready to head over by Persia. It may be wise to toss a horse on that caravel. In fact, I recommend it. There's one in Paris.

Grenoble-Cherbourg area could use a couple more forests.

This may be a good opportunity to upgrade spears to pikes at your nearest barracks. We have barracks in Orleans, Marseilles, and Bayonne.

There are four horsemen now in Marseilles waiting for the "in case of emergency, break glass" upgrade. Knights are 120g each, so be careful.

There is a worker 1 space from Lyons, he should be added next turn. Without doing the math, I think irrigating one or more of the non-BG tiles has to be a good idea, we have a hill and a gold mountain that Lyons could in theory work. But I would add the worker first and make pretty with the landscape later. We have PLENTY of workers, I think.

 

[Spoonwood]

Nice job on the defense. I feel surprised by some of the attacks. I don't know if I'll do the deal with Gilgy or wait a bit. I hope the other continent doesn't have a tech lead on us. I don't mind skipping Shakespeare's. But, I DO intend on researching Printing Press, as that comes as rather good for trading tech at the bottom of the tree, and more importantly it will speed up our contact rate. Even if we built Magellan's, I think our ships will move rather slowly, so we may as well get those contacts faster. I'll probably play tommorow afternoon/evening, so feel free to comment.

Oh... and rails??? Well, maybe we'll get lucky and have some coal in a mountain or hill. Still, I suspect we won't have coal and someone like India will and we'll have to gift Gandhi Steam Power and then buy his extra coal for rails, and probably even road up his unworked jungle... or something like that.

 

[DWetzel]

We have the nice hill areas right near Paris. I'm counting on saltpeter or coal in those.

I don't see us getting Magellan's (barring a lucky SGL); our coastal citites are not exactly powerhouses. On the other hand, I do want Bach's, Smith's, and Newton's from what's left (and if we can get Leo's too, cool).

I'm utterly confident that we can get Smith's and Newton's. Less so about Bach's and obviously Leo's may be an uphill fight. But I think we should craft a strategy around getting those in ASAP.

 

[Spoonwood]

But, now you'll get to enjoy its benefits. Seriously, where went that Carrack fleet when you most needed it? I didn't do much MMing these turns. I went 12 turns, you'll see why.

Spoiler :

Pre-turn Trade Gilgy Chiv. and Theology for Invention, 26 gpt and 35 gold. MM Rehims, MM Avignon.

1-530 Some monk starts talking about the Earth going about the Sun. I ask "Who hired this guy?" Paris-Sun Tzu's prebuild (I later switched it to Leo's). Dijon-market-pike. Gift Furious Inca 100 gold, they go up to annoyed. Gift annoyed Persians 100 gold, still somewhere at annoyed... of course, not as much . Sign RoP with Persia, they give us 50 gold, Xexes up to Cautious. Sign RoP with Inca, they give us 40 gold. sci. to 50%, add worker into Lyons. Move horse from Rehims to Marseille and upgrade.

2-540 Rheims-temple-university. Marseilles-temple-university. I sell the Inca The Republic for 107 gold. Ship finds empty island in the West. Forest around Rouen.

3-550 Rennes-temple-university. Forest around Besancon.

4-560 Avignon-temple-marketplace, sci. to 40%, Bayonne-temple-market.

5-570 Discover banking. Research Navigation due in 7 turns. I don't like our contact situation, and I would prefer the GA to spill over into the Industrial age as much as possible... or at least when we have more luxuries so we can kill that luxury slider and use it for more commerce. If we miss Smith's, oh well... we'll build the U.N. and have a modern age golden age... I wouldn't mind that. I think we'll still nail Smith's though. sci. at 60%. Amiens-market-university. Cherbourg-caravel-aqueduct. MM Rouen to use new forests I've planted there. Poitiers-university-pike. New Rheims-barracks-pike

6-580 Bordeux-market-univeristy. Dijon-pike-trebuchet. chop forest near Amiens and irrigate the game.

7-590 Inca start Sun Tzu's. Persians-Leo's. sci. to 50%

8-600 Harbourtown-harbor-court. Indians start Leo's. Upgrade a horse to a knight. Roman destroyed... somewhere near Vesuvius I suppose.

9-610 Poitiers-pike-temple. Brest aqueduct-court. New Orleans-aqueduct-market. knight to strasbourg. 2 chops near Chartres.

10-620 Lyon-university-Palace. Chartres-university-bank. Rouen-university-Sun Tzu's. Strasbourg-aqueduct-market. Buy slave from Gandhi.

11-630 Zulu's complete Sun Tzu's. Lyons-palace-courthouse swap. Rouen-Sun Tzu's-palace swap. sci. to 40%

12-640 Navigation learned. Set Music Theory as default tech.. due in 4 at 60%. Orelans-university-Cathedral. Toulouse-university-bank. New Rheims-Pike-Pike. Sumerians, English, Indians, and Persians start Leo's (this could be bad). Meet Mao... he's still in the ancient ages! Build embassy with Mao, swap maps with him... he has only 4 cities. Swap maps with the Inca. Swap maps with Gilgy getting 40 gold and 13gpt in the deal. swap maps with Lizzie. She has 3 colonies in the north somehow. swap maps with Gandhi for 49 gold. Swap maps with Xerxes for 7 gold.

I suggest we research Music Theory in case Sun Tzu's cascaded into Leo's and someone consequently builds Leo's. We can try for Leo's and have J.S. Bach's as a fallback, or perhaps forget Leo's and just go for J.S. Bach's. I think we can get Leo's, as long as we go for it now. I think Lyons should finish its court and then start on a wonder/pre-build, it'll have more shields that way, and I can't see it having the ability to build a wonder before its cathedral would complete if we swapped it to a cathedral. I suggest we research Music Theory and then Economics... but I'll leave that up to you. Rouen has the palace pre-build... I think best for J.S. Bach's and build Smith's in Lyons. You'll have to play this out though, Paris might build J.S. Bach's faster than either of them even if it completes Leo's first. Maybe I should have gone Music Theory before Navigation.. but if not.. oh well. Paris might lose a lot of shields, but it can fairly quickly gain them back.

The save:

 

[Spoonwood]

EDIT:

I changed Rouen to a bank, and Lyons to the Palace. The bank... provided that Leo's doesn't get finished, changed to J.S. Bach's. The Palace goes for Smith's, and Paris finishes Leo's... I hope. Play this by ear!

The new save:

 

[DWetzel]

Without seeing the save... sounds like fun.

 

[Spoonwood]

I haven't played emperor. Unless on the brink of destruction or a tribe that had gotten sacked for a while, I can't say I remember a tribe as pitiful as the Chinese look in my Monarch 20k games on archipelago maps. Sure, I've seen some bad ones with poor tech and few cities... well maybe I have seen some pitiful ones like that, but still. Go check Mao out in the trading screen and have a good laugh. At least in my Deity Pangea game the empires that suck have a decent sized stack of jaguar warriors in the industrial age running around.

 

[DWetzel]

Yeah, Mao is pretty screwed.

I've played 4 turns, will pick it up tomorrow evening sometime. We've made a few contacts, including the Germans (who are our rivals, pretty clearly, so far).

Oh, and the Leo's Workshop suspense lasted exactly one turn. Look for veteran Enkidu warriors near you. Of course, with nowhere to go Paris got a very expensive bank. (This is why I would have gone MT before Navigation. But c'est la vie, as we say.)

I'm pretty sure Germany has had its golden age, yes? Knights Templar takes care of militaristic, and Great Library takes care of scientific, right?

 

[Spoonwood]

I somehow didn't realize Sun Tzu's might cascade into Leo's... don't know how... but it didn't cross my mind. Yes, Knights Templer=militaristic, Great Library=scientific... so Germany either has just a few turns left, or has just finished it. Screenshot maybe before tommorow night? I'd like to see how the world shapes up.

 

[DWetzel]

I'll see what I can do about a screen shot.

More importantly... let me toss some trade thoughts out there.

Germany has Gunpowder and (just now) Economics. We have Music Theory and Navigation. Of course, their world map would also be very useful.

I can, if desired, pull off a trade as follows: WM, Economics, and wines (I think it was wines--anyway, it's a lux) for WM, Navigation, our two spare luxes, and some gold (was about 200 IIRC). We can research Gunpowder in like 5-6 turns. We can trade for Gunpowder, but it's a bit more expensive.

(We may be able to work a trade for all the techs, WMs, and luxes, but we'd have to throw in more gold. We do have about 1100 or so in the bank, even after the embassies, since Music Theory was fast and cheap.)

I am pretty sure that all wonder cascades are dead at this point, as we've killed Cop's, Sumeria killed Leo's (fortunately, BEFORE Germany got to Econ), and I don't think anyone is anywhere close to getting to Free Artistry or Theory of Gravity.

So the questions I have are:

Make the trades, or just hoard MT for a bit and research Economics (or trade for it a little later)? Obviously, Paris is started on Bach's, and I am virtually certain that we will get the wonder of our choice. The question becomes can we then get Smith's, Bach's (in our second build, with a little golden age kick) AND Newton's in Paris? Right now it would be as follows:

Smith's in Paris. Kicks off GA.
Bach's somewhere else (Lyons?).
Newton's in Paris.

At 40 spt, Newton's in Paris right after Bach's will take 10 turns (if I remember right and it's 400 shields). The danger becomes getting to ToG in time--which implies trading for or researching Gunpowder and Chemistry before getting Smith's. If we have those we can almost certainly get Physics and ToG within 10 turns in our golden age.

So I'm leaning toward trading up with Germany, not now but in a turn or two (hopefully with a couple more contacts). But, for obvious reasons, I'm not quite sure. It also affects our research choice right now. If we can trade for Guns and Economics, then we can go Chem/Phys/ToG and I'll be very comfortable. Without one or both of those trades, I'm not sure we make the tech in time. I'd almost rather trade for Guns and research Economics, I think.

Of course, if we trade for both, then we can maybe work Printing Press in, which I know you want (and at this point I don't disagree).

Germany is building Smith's not in Berlin but in a secondary city (don't have the game open,... city starts with an A). When I get the WM I can check out that city and see what sort of danger we may be in.

What's the build cost for Emperor AIs? Is it 80%? I should know this but I don't remember. IIRC I have 19 turns left on Bach's in Paris (will double check); if we can get Smith's inside that I would be willing to sacrifice Bach's to lock up Newton's. If I am right then as long as the AI city has <24 shields (480 shield total for Smith's) we are okay. If it has more than that, we'll need to plan. I do plan to spend the money to investigate that city as soon as I am able. But that requires a map of German territory, which I do not (yet) have.

 

[Spoonwood]

They do have an 80% rate compared to us on emperor... I think that means for a 10 shield worker it only costs them 8 shields to build the worker. Do you still have a palace pre-build going in Lyons or Rouen? If so, whichever has that going should build Smith's. Paris should go for Bach's. I'd expect they finish about the same time... and we could even micromanage it so they finish on the same turn (no funny cascades that way). Germany will probably research Printing Press if they don't have Chemistry yet.... maybe not though. Maybe we can still beat them their though. If we don't give them Music Theory, I think it a toss up between the two. If you think we can beat them there, I'd say go for Printing Press, trade for Economics and hold off on Gunpowder until we have Printing Press, then use Printing Press for Gunpowder and Chemistry if anyone else has it. If you don't think we can beat them there I'd say trade for both Econmics and Gunpowder now, and start on Chemistry. I think we can beat them there... but you have more information than I do here.

Even if we don't finish Newton's by the end of our Golden Age we should get it no sweat. Even though the AIs like Theory of Gravity, they don't like Physics. They'll almost surely research just about everything else in the middle ages (maybe one or 2 techs) before they research Physics. Since we'll get Physics first, I think we'll easily have a lock on the Theory of Gravity... especially if we've finished Smith's and J.S. Bach's before we get there.

WAIT... if we have more turns left on the Palace (say 5) than on Priniting press (say 4), then I say we don't trade Germany anything yet. They'll almost certainly research Navigation then (unless someone else has it). Then, once we have Printing Press, on the turn we learn it, trade for Economics and Gunpowder and start on Chemistry... or trade for Chemistry if available. The palace swaps to Smith's on that turn. Also, if we have the same number of turns left on the palace as we do for Printing Press, then trade Navigation to Germany 1 turn before we learn Printing Press, and change to Smith's that turn. Best of success!

 

[DWetzel]

I'm at work so I don't remember our prebuild situation. If we had one going in Rouen, I don't believe I changed it. Lyons is working on some random improvement right now, probably has a couple of turns into it.

But even WITH those, I still think Paris is our best bet for getting a wonder done.

One unlikely reason for going to PP: the 2% chance at a SGL. (Yeah, I'm not taking it into account either. Don't worry.)

My immediate thought is that Germany has one build, and only one build, going that we are aware of. I think it's safe enough to say that if they get one wonder, we probably want them to have Bach's. (Not that we don't want Bach's, but we want Smith's more. I do think a GA soon would be very helpful to us, especially if we can trade for 1 or 2 MA techs and get into the early Industrial with it.)

I'll be online and looking at everything in probably 3-4 hours and will try to have lots of screenies. We'll talk again before I play.

 

[DWetzel]

Oh, any objection to me shelling out a bit of cash to investigate some German cities should I see fit? Embassies have cost a touch over 100g each, and we have six to go... but I really think the next few turns will determine how the next 20-30 should go, which is why I'm taking my time about it.