American Immigration and Ellis Island, Key to America's Greatness, Europe's Decline

[Sharwood]

- actually I've heard opinions exactly opposite - that US is a country of low-life scum who was kicked out from Europe or hoped for great riches and easier life overseas: criminals, paupers and bounty hunters; searchers of El Dorado.

I'd say both accounts are equally true and false.

Exactly. Jerry Seinfeld was right. Americans are the "wretched refuse" of Europe.

The idea that Irish peasants fleeing the starvation of the Potato blight led to Europe's decline is one of the funniest I've ever heard. Not that I have anything against the Irish, but they had nary an effect on Europe intellectually, and those that did weren't starving, uneducated farmers and labourers. The same applies elsewhere.

And there's nothing in the least bit racist or ignorant about that Muslim comment at all.

 

[carmen510]

In my personal experience, Hindus fill that description more than Muslims, mainly due to the fact that mostly Brahmins and Kshatriyas believe they should be allowed far more privileges even in a society that doesn't uphold to their beliefs (The United States)

But enough of such experiences, I'll get back to the point of the thread.

It was mostly poor Europeans which emigrated to America, for a multitude of reasons. Criminal records, bad economic conditions (poverty), dreaming of a better life basically. In reality, some places were better and others were basically the same, see Lower New York. 'The New World is exactly the same as the Old World, only it had better advertising.'

 

[silver 2039]

In my personal experience, Hindus fill that description more than Muslims, mainly due to the fact that mostly Brahmins and Kshatriyas believe they should be allowed far more privileges even in a society that doesn't uphold to their beliefs (The United States)

When was the last time you saw an Indian on welfare hm? The answer is never. You know why? Because Indian immigrants are educated and hardworking. They have the highest average income in the US, and the highest SAT scores, the best university graduation rates, and highest paid professions.

According to the 2000 U.S. Census, Indian American men had "the highest year-round, full-time median earnings ($51,094)", while Indian American women had a medium income of $35,173.[

Indian Americans own 50% of all economy lodges and 35% of all hotels in the United States, which have a combined market value of almost $40 billion. (Source: Little India Magazine). In 2002, there were over 223,000 Asian Indian-owned firms in the U.S., employing more than 610,000 workers, and generating more than $88 billion in revenue.[17]

Indian Americans have the highest educational qualifications of all national origin groups in the United States. According to the American Association of Physicians of Indian Origin, there are close to 35,000 Indian American doctors [14]. According to the 2000 census, about 64% of Indian Americans have attained a Bachelor's degree or more.[5](compared to 28% nationally, and 44% average for all Asian American groups). Almost 40% of all Indians have a master’s, doctorate or other professional degree, which is five times the national average. (Source: The Indian American Centre for Political Awareness.) These high levels of education have enabled Indian Americans to become a productive segment of the American population, with 72.3% participating in the U.S. work force, of which 57.7% are employed in managerial and professional specialties.[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_American#Current_social_issues

 

[JBGUSA]

Exactly. Jerry Seinfeld was right. Americans are the "wretched refuse" of Europe.

Why don't you read (if you are able to) the context of the "wretched refuse" quotee, and by the way it was from Emma Lazarus, not Jerry Seinfeld:

Moderator Action: Warning given since you're new to us. No personal attks pls. - KD
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

The New Colossus ​

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"​

 

[JBGUSA]

That is plain false. Where are you getting this info from, the Daily Mail? Believe me, most immigrants in the UK right now probably work much harder than the average native. If all the eastern Europeans, antipodeans, and south Asians were to leave, London would grind to a halt. Besides which, if anyone really did come to the UK simply to skive on benefits, they'd be mad, because benefits are so low it is extremely difficult to live on them.

The benefits are better than in Pakistan. And were the Tube Bombers of July 11 such great citizens? Why are there so many Muslims in Britan that will not participate in national life?

You could as well argue that the people who went to America were mostly ultrareligious sickos, criminals and unemployed, uneducated farmers. America didn't make much difference in the european wars.
But thats of corse one-sided, too.

I could also argue that the earth is flat or that Arnold Schwartzenegger got pregnant in real life.

- actually I've heard opinions exactly opposite - that US is a country of low-life scum who was kicked out from Europe or hoped for great riches and easier life overseas: criminals, paupers and bounty hunters; searchers of El Dorado.

I'd say both accounts are equally true and false.

Huh?

 

[Plotinus]

The benefits are better than in Pakistan.

No doubt they are, but it doesn't follow from that that most Pakistani immigrants are here merely to skive off benefits. You should check the facts before you make such offensive and inflammatory statements.

And were the Tube Bombers of July 11 such great citizens?

No, but that's not really relevant, since three of the four were not immigrants but native Britons. The other one was from Jamaica. What is this supposed to prove?

Why are there so many Muslims in Britan that will not participate in national life?

What's "national life"? I'm not sure that I participate in it, and I'm neither a Muslim nor an immigrant. Nevertheless, I know enough not to judge entire religions or ethnic groups by the actions of a few extremists. A few years ago, it was Christians engaging in bomb campaigns in London. It doesn't mean that Christians don't "participate in national life", whatever that means.

If this is the best you can do to support the outrageous comments you've made in this thread then I'm not sure what else I can say. It sounds like you just believe by faith alone that your immigrants are superior to everyone else's. That's a pretty weird thing to believe, especially in the face of all the contrary evidence which absolutely everyone in this thread has presented, and which you have just ignored.

 

[Yeekim]

Huh?

I meant that the people who did cross Atlantic were on average not better or worse, not more hardworking or lazy, not more intelligent or stupid, than those who stayed behind.

 

[Annex]

Why don't you read (if you are able to) the context of the "wretched refuse" quotee, and by the way it was from Emma Lazarus, not Jerry Seinfeld:

Ah, reverting to personal attacks. Good way to win an argument.

The US wasn't the only country to experience mass immigrations. South American countries, especially Brazil and Argentina, received many European and African immigrants at the same time period, why arent they as great as America?

 

[JBGUSA]

Ah, reverting to personal attacks. Good way to win an argument.

Some of my best friends are functionally or truly illiterate.

The US wasn't the only country to experience mass immigrations. South American countries, especially Brazil and Argentina, received many European and African immigrants at the same time period, why arent they as great as America?

More of them were forced.

Also, Argentina at one point approached US levels of prosperity until it went astray.

 

[carmen510]

When was the last time you saw an Indian on welfare hm? The answer is never. You know why? Because Indian immigrants are educated and hardworking. They have the highest average income in the US, and the highest SAT scores, the best university graduation rates, and highest paid professions.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_American#Current_social_issues

That doesn't necessarily mean they don't seek welfare. I've seen Indians who live in the Upper East Side in penthouses who are asking for welfare benefits, ranging from parental healthcare to disability benefits (When they're walking perfectly) to unemployment benefits.

I'm definitely not saying Indians aren't hardworking or smart in anyway, but I'm appalled as to why Indians would be willing to exploit the welfare system. (Again, not saying it is limited to them, but I've seen many more of them than others)

 

[silver 2039]

Personal anecdote = verifiable fact. Right got it.

 

[privatehudson]

JBGUSA:

I'm going to assume that you didn't take the time to check out the ONS website, so let me enlighten you. Please take a look at the following link.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_population/MN33.pdf

I'm looking here right at page 17 where table A outlines how many thousand people emigrated to the UK in 2005 and 2006. It doesn't break immigration down by religion but by country, and whilst many of the 10 mentioned have muslim communities only Pakistan stands out as having a majority muslim population. No other country with a majority muslim population such as say Iraq, Egypt or Iran makes it on the top 10, which suggests that they provided relatively few migrants to the UK in recent years. Now I'm not saying that people coming from Germany, USA, New Zealand etc cannot be muslims since many of the other 9 countries have muslim communities whether they be big or small. Just as clear however is that the majority of migrants to the UK are unlikely to follow the muslim faith. Apart from anything else since hundreds of thousands of migrants come to the UK every year if the majority were muslims then there would be a lot more than 1.5 million muslims in the UK. Unless that is they're all leaving again which would run contrary to your claims about why they come here in the first place...

Moving down to the pie charts on page 21 you'll see on the left hand one that they break down migration by reason to come to the UK. Two categories stand out right away, definate job and looking for one. These made up 39% of all migrants to the UK in 2006. If we throw in students (who joking aside are doing something very productive) to the mix the figure rises to 66% of all migrants coming in that year came here to either work or study. Many of those on work and study visas are specifically banned from claiming benefits until they get a more permanent visa status. Their visa stamp will actually say "no recourse to public funds" and if they do bring over dependents during that period they usually won't be able to claim benefits for them either, they're expected to support them.

Now you may counter this with the suggestion that merely indicating a reason to come to the UK is not an indication of what they do when they arrive here. In a strict sense this is correct but let me assure you that in most cases if people came here on a working visa the rules are so strict that if they don't prove that they've worked their backsides off then chances are they won't have their visas renewed. Trust me on this one, I know people on the Highly Skilled Visa programme and I know very well what kind of hoops they have to jump through just to get the coveted "indefinate leave to remain".

I won't comment on the latter remarks since Plotinus did a very good response to those.

This is the history section, if you're going to make outrageous statements have the common sense to back it with some reputable sources. If you have some facts to back your claims about "Most of the recent immigrants to the UK are benefits-drawing Muslims" then feel free to post it. Otherwise I suggest you read the above and learn something from it.

 

[Sharwood]

Ah, reverting to personal attacks. Good way to win an argument.

The US wasn't the only country to experience mass immigrations. South American countries, especially Brazil and Argentina, received many European and African immigrants at the same time period, why arent they as great as America?

Yep, quoting a poem I already know sure shut me up. Why, my - well, everyone but the OP's - argument has been ruined.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Moderator Action: Report posts if you've problems with them, instead of replying to them.

Now pls get back to the topic on hand.

 

[plarq]

That doesn't necessarily mean they don't seek welfare. I've seen Indians who live in the Upper East Side in penthouses who are asking for welfare benefits, ranging from parental healthcare to disability benefits (When they're walking perfectly) to unemployment benefits.

I'm definitely not saying Indians aren't hardworking or smart in anyway, but I'm appalled as to why Indians would be willing to exploit the welfare system. (Again, not saying it is limited to them, but I've seen many more of them than others)

If I could fake out welfare from the Eagle without being thrown to jail with fraud, I'd certainly do it. I act as what economists told, a "rational individual".

 

[JBGUSA]

The thing is its highly mistaken to call it a brain drain. There were a couple great waves of immigration, the first one from northern Europe, England, Germany, Scandavia, and such and these guys tended to be farmers, Germans moved to the midwestern farming commounities for instance. Then later on the Irish came with the Potato famine, they were unskilled laborers they worked in the factories for poor wages, and squalid living conditions.

Later on the immigrants from Eastern Europe, Italy, and Greece were all peasants and farmers. Most of them flooded into American cities living in ethnic neighborhoods until they could get themselves out of the slum.

These weren't for the most part skilled laborers, engineers, scientists, or men of education or intellectual pursuit. They were more than anything else what in Europe would be referred to as peasants, the poor, or possibly scum. They boosted American workforce taking the dirty and dangerous jobs in the factories, moved out west to become farmers, Europe wasn't losing a middle class or educated people.

Maybe "brain drain" isn't the right term. I still believe that the more energetic people, the ones with initiative, were the ones that came.

 

[Arwon]

Nope.

Mostly it was the middle section of the peasantry from European countries which experienced major upheavals in the countryside resulting in the destruction of the peasantry as a social class (ie, Germany, Scandinavia, Italy, Ireland, parts of Spain, but not France, which is why there were very few French folks in the 1870-1920 mass migrations and no huge French migrant populations in the New World that are analogous to Germans/Scandinavians/Italians/Galicians).

The poorest couldn't afford it and ended up drifting towards the cities or becoming landless farm labourers, whilst the richer peasants mostly coped with the social and economic changes.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Maybe "brain drain" isn't the right term. I still believe that the more energetic people, the ones with initiative, were the ones that came.

a) Is 'energy' and 'initiative' genetically determined then? You seem to indicate this in your original post.
b) Using your apparent system of thought one could equally make the argument that is only the losers and crazies who couldn't hack it/become prosperous in Europe emigrated, as the ones with energy and initiative would solve the problems they had rather than running away . (well not the absolute losers, as they tended to die, but the rung above that)

 

[RedRalph]

Exactly. Jerry Seinfeld was right. Americans are the "wretched refuse" of Europe.

The idea that Irish peasants fleeing the starvation of the Potato blight led to Europe's decline is one of the funniest I've ever heard. Not that I have anything against the Irish, but they had nary an effect on Europe intellectually, and those that did weren't starving, uneducated farmers and labourers. The same applies elsewhere.

And there's nothing in the least bit racist or ignorant about that Muslim comment at all.

Without us, crude racial caricatures in magazines wouldnt be what they are now in the US

 

[Orange Seeds]

Maybe "brain drain" isn't the right term. I still believe that the more energetic people, the ones with initiative, were the ones that came.

Why.
There is no question mark there because there can't possibly be any rational defense of that statement.