American Race Relations and why Obama will lose!

[Zelig]

White people destroyed millions of Native Canadians and Americans, both directly through war and murder and through displacement and disease.

Oh, I guess that makes sense, I've never heard them referred to as native Canadians though.

Native Canadian = someone born in Canada.
Native American = Indigenous people to North or South America.

 

[On Yer Flour]

But the current "moving forward" is moving backward. Conservatism might not be the way to go, but the current American liberalism is trying to "solve" any problems in race relations by (a) throwing money at the problem, and (b) clearly delineating differences in groups. Society should be colorblind; the current trend is making people more, not less aware of color.

There are more then two sides to every situation, and the side which isn't presented is the idea of uniting people. Instead of going after the black vote, the woman vote, the urban vote, etc., politicians should be going for the country's vote. Senator Obama seems more genuinely interested in doing that than most politicians, but that sort of strategy doesn't bring ratings up for the news channels.

That's true, but our world is becoming more identity-specific than ever - I'm a prime example of that, as is every person on here who flies the flag of some specific country, religion, culture or group, or advocates a specific (usually minority) form of government as a major part of their identity. At the same time that the world (or the parts that can afford it, at any rate) is becoming vastly connected via the Internet, that same communications explosion is causing people to come more into contact with the specific small groups they identify with. It was difficult before to maintain a viable social identity as, say, a collector of Victorian-era kerosene wick lamps; now, not so much. The same goes for larger groups, such as fundamentalist Christians, Democrats, anti-war activists, musicians, and so on. It is now much easier to find others who share your identity; it is much easier, too, to organize, promote issues, and spread the word.

So, in conclusion, it's important to see the forest for the trees, but I just don't think it's realistic in this day and age to ask any politician to neglect the trees for the forest.

 

[luiz]

A great read; thank you for it, Che Guava.

When the only thing that unites a group of people is that they were once slaves,

I think this is the problem, right there.
Fact is no black person alive today in the US was once a slave. Their ancestors were, what should be irrelevant. Yet if we listen to an Al Sharpton speech it is like slavery was abolished last week.

If the current population was indeed once enslaved then it would make sense, and be in fact fair, to give reparations, hand-outs, etc. But they were not, and so it is not.

Edit: Of course I know you were not saying that current blacks were once slaves, I'm just using that phrase to make a point. It's not really directed at ya.

 

[Che Guava]

I find it ironic that we look favorably on leaders who brought us together: Washington, Jefferson, King. But we're not as interested in someone like that now... we'd rather beat the commie liberals and the bigoted Christians.

God Bless America.

That's part of the problem, I beleive. No-one seems to be trying to unite america at this point, most seem content to play to enough 'interest groups' (and count on knee-jerk votes: see liberal guilt for democrats, and christian values for republicans) and hope for a majority like that. I guess playing the centre doesn't make for good soundbytes...

I don't get the native Canadians part either...

First nations/amerindians/native canadians are our n*****s, sadly enough (of course, quebec nationalists might contest that!). The problems of poverty in that group is something that white canadians are not always comfortable talking about, and we tend to have the same reactions towards it as white americans have to blacks, and try the same 'give a fish' instead of 'teach to fish' solutions.

A great read; thank you for it, Che Guava.

Why thank you, smiley WillJ!

When the only thing that unites a group of people is that they were once slaves, there are bound to be destructive social dynamics. If a black person does well in school and gets a good job (unless that school happens to be Howard University and that job is civil rights attorney), he's a slave to whites. Only by dropping out of school and siphoning whatever he can out of the government will a black man not be a slave. The problem is that he may have cast off his chains, but he still can't do anything with his hands. By protesting against whites in order to maintain a pathological identity, blacks have traded one form of slavery for another. Blacks will finally achieve success only when they stop defining themselves in their relation with whites

I don't think that the slavery is the whole issue, per se, its also the relatively recent shift in racial attitudes and norms that has occurred in north america and most of the west. And its not so much that a black person is (or feels like) a slave if he/she gets a good job and succeeds in life, its how he views and attacks social problems in his/her own community. Blakcs find it hard to be pragmatists when elements in thier own community insist that all problems stem from racism (at least that's what I got from the interview...)

I think this is the problem, right there.
Fact is no black person alive today in the US was once a slave. Their ancestors were, what should be irrelevant. Yet if we listen to an Al Sharpton speech it is like slavery was abolished last week.

Again, I don't think its slavery as much as normalized and in some cases institulionlised racism in american society, which only saw a real change during the civil rights movement, which is really only about one generation ago.

If the current population was indeed once enslaved then it would make sense, and be in fact fair, to give reparations, hand-outs, etc. But they were not, and so it is not.

Well, it is fair to say that many blacks still living today were subject to Jim Crow laws (which were only appealed in 1965) and it is likely that thier children were probably not able to get ahead (getting a university education, having the funds to start up a business, etc) because of how these laws affected thier financial status. And that exactly what things like Affirmative Action are set out to correct.

DOn't get me wrong, I still think there are plenty of flaws with AA and other such diversity programmes, but I did want to point out taht it is more than just slavery that african americans have legitimate grievances with.

 

[JZ_UK]

First nations/amerindians/native canadians are our n*****s, sadly enough (of course, quebec nationalists might contest that!). The problems of poverty in that group is something that white canadians are not always comfortable talking about, and we tend to have the same reactions towards it as white americans have to blacks, and try the same 'give a fish' instead of 'teach to fish' solutions.

Ah! Native as in indigenous Makes sense now...

 

[Irish Caesar]

So, in conclusion, it's important to see the forest for the trees, but I just don't think it's realistic in this day and age to ask any politician to neglect the trees for the forest.

The danger here, though, which I certainly see happening, is that rather than look the forest, and how to improve it, and strengthen it, we're just looking at the trees. If I am a pine tree, I want to see more pine trees in the forest; screw the stupid maples and aspens! Politicians are very much neglecting the forest for the trees, which is potentially a pretty grave situation.

What we need is someone in a position of power who can explain why what (s)he is doing is good for the entire forest; why it will benefit the maples, the aspens, the pines, and even the odd sequoia or two.

 

[WillJ]

I don't think that the slavery is the whole issue, per se, its also the relatively recent shift in racial attitudes and norms that has occurred in north america and most of the west. And its not so much that a black person is (or feels like) a slave if he/she gets a good job and succeeds in life, its how he views and attacks social problems in his/her own community. Blakcs find it hard to be pragmatists when elements in thier own community insist that all problems stem from racism (at least that's what I got from the interview...)

Slavery's certainly not a direct cause of any of this, but I do think it underlies everything. Like you said, there has been a huge shift in whites' attitudes ... but no real shift in blacks', and that's the problem. Blacks still define themselves in their relation with whites. If somehow one day the U.S. became entirely black, I doubt there would be any "black problem" --- there'd be plenty of great black students (and bad ones), plenty of great black leaders (and bad ones), plenty of great black parents (and bad ones), great black scientists and engineers, etc., just like white people right now. But right now white people are dominant in school and business and politics, and if you want to be successful you may be able to become successful purely as an individual (like a rapper) or within a niche (like the black-operated Fubu company), but for the most part if you want to be successful you have to enter the "white world," so blacks keep themselves below whites, desperate to maintain a separate identity. Like in this study, demonstrating that successful black students aren't accused of "acting white" as much when the school has more black people and fewer white people.

Of course, some black people do genuinely think racism is a huge problem keeping them back no matter how hard they try, and so they don't try. But mostly it seems like a giant destructive charade, a power game like the interview says and a matter of identity like in the above study.

 

[Mark1031]

I agree with some of the things that guy said. I do not currently think that the worst thing facing AAs is racism but only because of the severity of the many other problems that community has. But all of the problems of that community are the remnants of racism. I have to laugh at the fools who pat themselves on the back over their reasoning skills when they point out that no one alive today was a slave as if that ends the discussion with a pwned. Have you no understanding of the pervasive history of overt and institutional racism until just a few years ago in the US. While there may be no former slaves alive today there are plenty of people whose fathers grew up with the threat of being beaten to death if they looked at a white person wrong, There are plenty of families that were denied entry into the stabilizing forces of the middle class due to overt racism in jobs and education. You need look no further than the thread on James Watson to find a present day overt racist who directs one of the leading research institutions in the country and is undoubtedly denying black applicants an equal opportunity. I’m happy to argue about solutions and approaches that differ from the current ones but only with people who acknowledge the history and societal responsibility for the situation.

 

[Norseone]

I agree with some of the things that guy said. I do not currently think that the worst thing facing AAs is racism but only because of the severity of the many other problems that community has. But all of the problems of that community are the remnants of racism. I have to laugh at the fools who pat themselves on the back over their reasoning skills when they point out that no one alive today was a slave as if that ends the discussion with a pwned. Have you no understanding of the pervasive history of overt and institutional racism until just a few years ago in the US. While there may be no former slaves alive today there are plenty of people whose fathers grew up with the threat of being beaten to death if they looked at a white person wrong, There are plenty of families that were denied entry into the stabilizing forces of the middle class due to overt racism in jobs and education. You need look no further than the thread on James Watson to find a present day overt racist who directs one of the leading research institutions in the country and is undoubtedly denying black applicants an equal opportunity. I’m happy to argue about solutions and approaches that differ from the current ones but only with people who acknowledge the history and societal responsibility for the situation.

Other groups in the US have overcome institutionalized racism and are currently doing quite well. I just find it hard to believe that these problems of the previous generation, that were there, would affect the children so much. Racism happened, you saw with what happened to Watson that you ruin your reputation if you say something precieved as racist. Racism is viewed as the greatest evil in society today or close to it. I just dont think it can be viewed as a cause for todays problems. They are too extreme to have been caused by that.

Perhaps you could argue racism has lead to poor education and monetary situations for current parents and such, but that kind of thing can be overcome by hard work...and has multiple times in the past. Personally I tend to feel the main problem is trying to create a separate culture within the US's culture that doesnt have values that lead to success.. now this is something that racism probably led to, but its continuation has nothing to do with racism.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

I agree with some of the things that guy said. I do not currently think that the worst thing facing AAs is racism but only because of the severity of the many other problems that community has. But all of the problems of that community are the remnants of racism. I have to laugh at the fools who pat themselves on the back over their reasoning skills when they point out that no one alive today was a slave as if that ends the discussion with a pwned. Have you no understanding of the pervasive history of overt and institutional racism until just a few years ago in the US. While there may be no former slaves alive today there are plenty of people whose fathers grew up with the threat of being beaten to death if they looked at a white person wrong, There are plenty of families that were denied entry into the stabilizing forces of the middle class due to overt racism in jobs and education. You need look no further than the thread on James Watson to find a present day overt racist who directs one of the leading research institutions in the country and is undoubtedly denying black applicants an equal opportunity. I’m happy to argue about solutions and approaches that differ from the current ones but only with people who acknowledge the history and societal responsibility for the situation.

How do you know that leading research institutions are denying black applicants an equal opportunity (even more so, overtly)? Because some old, possibly senile, scientist who risked his career for saying said it? Try asking the other board of admissions before leading to those conclusions, maybe? Perhaps your definition of 'equal' is different from mine, but I'm sure had anyone of any race had the grades (or the money), they would be accepted in those leading institutes.

I'm not denying that mainstream American culture (WASPs) possesses a 'minority oppression' over the market a few years ago or even today; but that's simply a reality. Every minority had to and does deal with it, like it or not. Steele's comments on the ruinous and unintended affects of aggressive pluralistic multiculturalism within a paternalistic multicultural society are still very valid. It's those affects that ironically caused further deplorable conditions, discrimination, and poor education opportunities in those communities you mentioned. Such divergences probably caused even more discrimination than the remnants of Jim Crow ever have.

But on solutions, could you please explain what a 'social responsibility' means? A "social responsibility" can mean many, many things.

 

[Che Guava]

Slavery's certainly not a direct cause of any of this, but I do think it underlies everything. Like you said, there has been a huge shift in whites' attitudes ... but no real shift in blacks', and that's the problem. Blacks still define themselves in their relation with whites. If somehow one day the U.S. became entirely black, I doubt there would be any "black problem" --- there'd be plenty of great black students (and bad ones), plenty of great black leaders (and bad ones), plenty of great black parents (and bad ones), great black scientists and engineers, etc., just like white people right now. But right now white people are dominant in school and business and politics, and if you want to be successful you may be able to become successful purely as an individual (like a rapper) or within a niche (like the black-operated Fubu company), but for the most part if you want to be successful you have to enter the "white world," so blacks keep themselves below whites, desperate to maintain a separate identity. Like in this study, demonstrating that successful black students aren't accused of "acting white" as much when the school has more black people and fewer white people.

Yes, it does seem to me that the "Uncle Tom" stereotypes are probably one of the most damaging internal problems of african americans, at least in terms of advancing to new places in society. But at the same time, I think I can understand the frustration. I know that when blacks do get jobs in white-dominated areas, it can be either lonely (not having people around that have the same kind of background) or downright hostile (especially if it is perceived that the person only got the job due to affirmative action). It's really no wonder then that the greatest black success stories seem to come out of industries that they have basically created themselves (music/entertainment, fashion, etc)

Of course, some black people do genuinely think racism is a huge problem keeping them back no matter how hard they try, and so they don't try. But mostly it seems like a giant destructive charade, a power game like the interview says and a matter of identity like in the above study.

It's probably both, depending on who you are and which hand feeds you.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Personally I tend to feel the main problem is trying to create a separate culture within the US's culture that doesnt have values that lead to success.. now this is something that racism probably led to, but its continuation has nothing to do with racism.

What culture in America doesn't promote values that lead to success. I'm trying to think of one that doesn't promote money and exploitation by one means or another. I don't think you can define American culture based on the aspects which you approve of. What you are refering to is likey at the heart of American culture. For example, violence is often seen as an aspect of certain type of American culture, but thats because people often ignore our current and past history of glorifying warefare and the macho embrace of violence that is prevelant throughout all of American culture. Its only a separate culture at face value.

 

[Mark1031]

Other groups in the US have overcome institutionalized racism and are currently doing quite well. I just find it hard to believe that these problems of the previous generation, that were there, would affect the children so much. Racism happened, you saw with what happened to Watson that you ruin your reputation if you say something precieved as racist. Racism is viewed as the greatest evil in society today or close to it. I just dont think it can be viewed as a cause for todays problems. They are too extreme to have been caused by that.

Perhaps you could argue racism has lead to poor education and monetary situations for current parents and such, but that kind of thing can be overcome by hard work...and has multiple times in the past. Personally I tend to feel the main problem is trying to create a separate culture within the US's culture that doesnt have values that lead to success.. now this is something that racism probably led to, but its continuation has nothing to do with racism.

What other groups are you referring to? While other groups have been discriminated against I am not aware of any that suffered so severely or so long throughout US history. If the current situation of AAs is not due to past racism what is it due to. Genetic inferiority? Moral inferiority? Jesse Jackson? There were lynching in the South only a generation ago. There was educational and job discrimination up to today but was pervasive less than a generation ago. Please offer your explanation for the current state of the AA community that involves choices made in the past 20 yrs when most serious discrimination was eliminated.

 

[Norseone]

What culture in America doesn't promote values that lead to success. I'm trying to think of one that doesn't promote money and exploitation by one means or another. I don't think you can define American culture based on the aspects which you approve of. What you are refering to is likey at the heart of American culture. For example, violence is often seen as an aspect of certain type of American culture, but thats because people often ignore our current and past history of glorifying warefare and the macho embrace of violence that is prevelant throughout all of American culture. Its only a separate culture at face value.

Actually I was just saying certain cultures dont value hard work as much as others. No one would deny that is true.

 

[Mark1031]

How do you know that leading research institutions are denying black applicants an equal opportunity (even more so, overtly)? Because some old, possibly senile, scientist who risked his career for saying said it? Try asking the other board of admissions before leading to those conclusions, maybe? Perhaps your definition of 'equal' is different from mine, but I'm sure had anyone of any race had the grades (or the money), they would be accepted in those leading institutes.

Dude I am a professional scientist. I have met Watson and know people who know him well. He has strong racist and sexist opinions. I have met a number of senior people in science who have strong sexist and racist opinions. I assume they act on them either consciously or unconsciously in hiring.

But on solutions, could you please explain what a 'social responsibility' means? A "social responsibility" can mean many, many things.

It is a group ie. government, responsibility.

 

[puglover]

To OP: Wow. That was a brilliant read on race relations. Thank you for the enlightenment.

 

[.Shane.]

So, there's the bargainer and the challenger... um, ok. As presented, neither is right or better, so what is his route of the way to go? Where is his alternative to these? He's creating a situation where black's can't win.

His only "real man" is Clarence Thomas. Given that CT is on the Supreme Court, of course he's free to act completely on his conscience with no repercussions, so this hardly constitutes a great example.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Actually I was just saying certain cultures dont value hard work as much as others. No one would deny that is true.

Not only do I deny that but I also deny that hard work leads to success. But feel free to be more specific.

 

[Norseone]

What other groups are you referring to? While other groups have been discriminated against I am not aware of any that suffered so severely or so long throughout US history. If the current situation of AAs is not due to past racism what is it due to. Genetic inferiority? Moral inferiority? Jesse Jackson? There were lynching in the South only a generation ago. There was educational and job discrimination up to today but was pervasive less than a generation ago. Please offer your explanation for the current state of the AA community that involves choices made in the past 20 yrs when most serious discrimination was eliminated.

Asians have been discriminated against in the USA for a long long time, as were eastern Europeans etc. Sure they weren't slaves ever...but they were discriminated against. Asians especially were very descriminated against. If I am remembering correctly the situation for the AA community actually reached its worst in the 80s and has not really improved since then. I do not know what caused these problems...it was probably a mix of things...but I do not think racism was the main cause. It probably created the situation in which these problems could be created...but I dont think it is a direct reason they happened.

 

[Norseone]

Not only do I deny that but I also deny that hard work leads to success. But feel free to be more specific.

I have met very few successful people that dont work hard...but this is just a common sense thing, I shouldnt have to provide evidence for it.

And if certain cultures dont value hard work as much...then why do certain groups of people tend to work harder?