Americans

[swordless]

But if the indigenous peoples had advanced in the same way as the rest of the world and become a power in the world two thousand years ago, we would have one or more nations in North America now that would not resemble the USA in any way. There would be no Washington and no Roosevelt (and no Elvis Presley). The city names would be utterly different. The language, the culture, the religion, the politics, the foreign policy, all would be utterly different. The name of the continent would be different.

But then if the Romans hadn't invaded Britain things would have been a lot different. They bought an awful lot of stuff over with them and quite a few of the city / region names are taken from the names the Romans used IIRC. Does that mean the British should be removed as well?

 

[Multiplicity]

Yes, I know dictionary.com is hardly Oxford Thesaurus, but I do think it's a good definition regardless.

 

[southafrica]

Those damn romans as well... why did they have to make a reason for "all roads lead to rome..." Those idiots started global warming with all their building! I vote for removing; greeks, romans, and egyptians. and never adding the sumarians.

 

[Jonathan]

Definition of civilization...

You don't seem to have read what you're replying to.

No-one's suggesting that the USA is uncivilized. The starter of this thread merely pointed out, as others have done, that the USA is not an ancient civilization.

 

[The End Is Nigh]

Yes, this discussion again. I didn't start it. I admit I'm taking part in it; but so are you.

Whether the US should be included in the game has been discussed a thousand times. This is true about other Civs too. My frustration is due to the fact that this discussion will once again lead to nothing.

That's one of the reasons why the Americans are included in the game -- and it's the main reason why the Americans had to be included in the game. But it's irrelevant to players of the game, who can easily choose to exclude civs from the game, and (less easily) add extra civs to the game.

No it is not irrelevant, especially if you are an American. And as you admit, if you do not want a particular civ in the game you can extract it and introduce the one you prefer.

So what? The game spans 60 centuries.

Indeed. Does this mean you should include only those civs that exist since the beginning? Only a handful would then be included. Instead, the game rightly introduces those Civs which at different times in history played an important role in the world's development. The US certainly played a huge role in modern times, like Greece, Rome and Egypt did in Ancient times, and Britain, France and Germany did in Medieval and Industrial times.

To say that Americans don't belong in ancient times is not anti-American, it's just a basic observation of historical fact.

True. I only made this observation because usually such discussions start by people who do not really like the US. Love them or hate them, they are here to stay.

 

[Gottschalk]

Why is it that people complain that America is not a civilization which is, of course, the most absurd notion in the world but they do not complain about young Germany being in the game.

German civilization started with Bismarck. Would you dream of a civ with out Grossdeutschland? I think not.

America has unique food, culture, art, inventions, Great People, we even have had great prophets that found new religions. Hubbard and Smith (not saying they're the greatest but what are you going to do).

If America is not a civ because it is an offshoot of England and Germany (which modern America is the most diverse country in the world so that argument is nonsense) primarily than England can't be a civ only the Franks or Gauls can. This reasoning is ludicrous.

 

[Multiplicity]

You don't seem to have read what you're replying to.

No-one's suggesting that the USA is uncivilized. The starter of this thread merely pointed out, as others have done, that the USA is not an ancient civilization.

Yes, I did read the original thread starter's post.

the only reason they are in it that i can think of is that this game is made in america...and that a lot of american ppl would probably like to play with their own nationality.

This is what I am responding to. I disagree that America was put in because a lot of Americans will be playing this game. I agree that it was put in because it fits the definition of a civilization.

 

[The End Is Nigh]

Don't bash dictionary.com - the newbie's ticket to enlightenment.

My apologies if I offended anyone. That was not my intention. Rather, I made this remark because there are many people in this site who use sources of questionable historical validity to support their arguments, such as wikipedia, etc...

 

[Jonathan]

Says who?? This is a world of alternate history, where anything can happen. I don't see the point in trying to shoehorn what we know has happened into an (in effect) fictional game world that starts in 4000 BC with a blank canvas. The whole point of the game is that it doesn't play out as our history has. There'd be no game otherwise.

When I encounter stupidity of this magnitude, I realize belatedly that I'm wasting my time and I may as well find something better to do.

 

[elderotter]

I really didnt want to reply to this thread - it has been so very done to death in other threads and now in this thread too. If you don't like America being in this game give your game to someone who will appreciate it for the game's sake.

 

[Reg Pither]

When I encounter stupidity of this magnitude, I realize belatedly that I'm wasting my time and I may as well find something better to do.

Sorry if I'm just going to appear more stupid, but I don't understand where the 'stupidity' comes in. Nor the need for insults. I thought we weren't taking this seriously?

 

[Praetoriani]

There's three good reasons why Americans should be in the game.
1. The people to whom the game is marketed most heavily are Americans. So despite any arguments as to their virtue with culture, you're going to see the Americans in there. Besides, who can argue that as the world's only superpower both economically and militarily the Americans don't deserve consideration as the greatest civilization of this age?

Actually, economically the European Union is the worlds #1 economical superpower.

This is actually coming from an American. (Although currently on vacation in the Netherlands, because I love western European culture.)

 

[Gottschalk]

Spain, England, Germany, Russia, Mongolia, Japan,and America are all not ancient civilizations. They were all barbarians (save America not founded excepting the indigineous peoples who were ancient).

CIV should only have Greece, Rome (whoa, whoa but that is not ancient enough thought)... So let's throw out Greece and Rome and only stick to Babylon, Egypt, Assyrians, Hittites... etc.

It does not matter when a civilization strated only that they are a civilization and that they were important durring their Golden Age. Spain being the best example.

 

[Crosby 87]

America is a unique mix of cultures, races, religions and as such she should be included in the game. Not to mention the fact while our civilization may not be 1000 years old, it is the strongest and most attractive of the modern era.

 

[southafrica]

Actually, economically the European Union is the worlds #1 economical superpower.

This is actually coming from an American. (Although currently on vacation in the Netherlands, because I love western European culture.)

However that is mainly on paper... in fact as India and China continue to rise, europe looks ready to slink away... I mean seriously have you looked at Continental Europe's economic performance? They are about as competitive as the American Cricket/Rugby Team. On paper the "EU" is a powerhouse in reality it is largely in shambles...

 

[Praetoriani]

China and India will only grow as far as North America and the EU will allow it to.

 

[The End Is Nigh]

They are about as competitive as the American Cricket/Rugby Team. On paper the "EU" is a powerhouse in reality it is largely in shambles...

Are you aware my good American friend that the US debt, according to the Federal Government Debt Report, currently stands at $40 TRILLION???

This will have to be repaid one day, you know. Then we will see how good we Europeans are in Rugby (and I am not talking about American Rugby, but European which is tougher)

 

[Truronian]

A Babylonian spaceship merely requires that the Babylonians survive into modern times and learn to build a spaceship. That's alternate history, but the game necessarily involves alternate history. There's nothing impossible about it.

However, the USA was started by Europeans in the 18th century and that's what made it what it is. If it had started as a separate civ in ancient times, it would be nothing like the modern USA now. To have a civ starting in ancient times and turning into the modern USA via a completely different history is impossible.

But sure, it's only a game and we don't need to take this too seriously.

So your okay with an alternate history that involves ancient races living in modern times, but not one that involves modern races living in ancient times?

 

[southafrica]

Are you aware my good American friend that the US debt, according to the Federal Government Debt Report, currently stands at $40 TRILLION???

This will have to be repaid one day, you know. Then we will see how good we Europeans are in Rugby (and I am not talking about American Rugby, but European which is tougher)

Perhaps but as the American Economy is roughly 12-13 trillion, that isn't so bad. However, recent natural disasters and the war have put strain on the economy but these are short term concerns and in fact with concerted effort the debt could start being reduced rapidly. Where as Germany has yet to put in place any real meaningful reform, the EU will soon be supporting the new Eastern European countries diverting money from the french farmers, and Turkey is on its way to full membership... You have to be a fool to not see that on the Continent the EU is having huge "growing pains"

The bottom line is that while the US, China, India, Brazil, and other Asian states are keeping/gaining in terms of economic competitiveness the EU is proving unable to change its tract.

Are you daft and think I am unfamiliar with what rugby is? (you know america has an acutal rugby team consisting of Aussies, Kiwis, and South Africans mainly)

 

[BorgeoisBuffoon]

When I encounter stupidity of this magnitude, I realize belatedly that I'm wasting my time and I may as well find something better to do.

Nice to know you had to resort to pathetic insults to decent arguments.