Praetoriani
Chieftain
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When we (US) owe the rest of the world 8 trillion dollars, we no longer control our own economy. This gives foreign governments massive leverage.
Americans
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butlerj1982
Chieftain
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I think these threads are funny, because it seems like most are people whining for some reason about America being in the game, which it obviously should be as the most influential Civ of the past 100 years (which ends up, since the disocvery of military tradition, being a very significant part of the game).
As someone who works with gov't money all the time (tax law), I just wanted to point out to the last poster that that "debt" is incredibly misleading. The United States government uses a wierd accouting system that prorates assets by entity but debt government-wide. The actual debt is entirely manageable, especially given that our government's credit rating is the best in the world.
As someone who works with gov't money all the time (tax law), I just wanted to point out to the last poster that that "debt" is incredibly misleading. The United States government uses a wierd accouting system that prorates assets by entity but debt government-wide. The actual debt is entirely manageable, especially given that our government's credit rating is the best in the world.
southafrica
Warlord
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Praetoriani said:
LOL are you serious? Look how much leverage American or European aid gets with Mugabe... money doesn't equal "leverage" in fact the only thing that only equals "leverage" is the threat of force. (I am not arguing for or against any war, but the bottom line is that force is the only thing that many countries consider in terms of influence.)
The brilliance of a free market is that no one is in control of the economy. The economy is made up of selfish profiteers as it should be, thus the reasons that jobs are leaving industrialized countries to the developing countries... why pay someone minimum wage and health and what not when you can pay a third worlder a fraction of the wage and get huge tax benefits from the government? Simple supply and demand at work. Can you give me an example of how this foreign debt is influencing American public policy please?
Jonny211
Chieftain
Inflammatory said:
Ok, apart from the wheel, writing, astronomy, trigonomerty, mathematics, sanitation and erm, some others that google hasn't found for me... what have they done for us?
[EDIT] Also base 60 number system (seconds, minutes, degrees). I thought that was the Babylonians but I live and learn.
Genghis Khan II
Chieftain
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I think america should be in the game but if you have problems with it pretend that before 1776 it means Native americans or something.
Genghis Khan II said:
Let's not forget this is a pc game we're talking about. The whole thing is based on pretending.
If someone doesn't like or can't stand the fact the America is in this game you have several options:
1 Don't buy the game
2 if you already bought it, burn it.
3 When you play, make sure the AI controlled civs won't be randomly selecting America.
4 Get a girlfriend instead of playing this game (might be pushing it for some)
5. Read through the manual and scratch off every instance of the word "America" with a black sharpie.
6. Organize a campaign to demand Firaxis removes America from the game with the next patch.
7. Get a clue.
8. Get a life
I'm sure there are many more solutions, these are just a few to start you up.
And if you really DO want to go down that road...
Why are the Germans in the game? Germany didn't exist until the 1870s, about a century after America. Until then it was either barbarians or later a bunch of tiny principalities, no Germany. So what the hell is Germany doing millenia before it's time? Why not have the Saxons or the Prussians?
Why are the Germans in the game? Germany didn't exist until the 1870s, about a century after America. Until then it was either barbarians or later a bunch of tiny principalities, no Germany. So what the hell is Germany doing millenia before it's time? Why not have the Saxons or the Prussians?
Ok my topic seems to have been discused before (the search doesnt work for me on this site) so sorry bout that..but a lot of ppl reply so i quess it could use another topic.
let me first make some things clear (that wouldnt be needed if ppl just read the posts instead of making replys to something i never said):
I DIDNT SAY AMERICA ISNT A CIV. ...its surely is and has been the last 300 years.
I DO LIKE THE GAME. ..so ppl telling me to not play this game if i dont like the americans doesnt make sence...i just dont play the americans.
THE GAME OFFERS ALTERNATE REALITIES...this is true..but it also offers a set of "realistic" rules on witch the game is based. for example it is possible for an ancient civ to have survived in this game where in real life they didnt...but it shouldnt be possible (imo) that u can start out with a civ that "realisticly" wasnt there for another 5700 yrs.
JAPAN, GERMANY AND OTHER CIV SHOULDNT BE THERE TOO THEN...i dont agree..while you are right when you say that 4000 before christ they where nothing more then barbarians...but it where in fact those barbarians that laid the foundation for japan or germany. While in the usa it wherent the native indians that laid the foundation for the usa.
and sure its true that other civs also influenced nations (like the romans did to france and britan and many more countries (basiclly a large part of eurpe) but its mostly the original barbarians that determine what the country shoild be like.
example: i live in holland and the romans where here also (bout the same time and numbers as in england)...still holland and england today are to very different nations with their own habits architecture, culture.
AMERICA HAS DONE MUCH FOR THE WORLD>>WHAT HAVE EGYPTIANS EVER DONE TO US?...yeah its true that the usa has played a large role in the last 150 years of out history (and arguably have made more inventions then for example the aztecs ever did.)
i just dont think the acomplishments of a civ is what gives em a place in this game...it should be (like i posted earlier) that they follow the basic set of "realistic" rules from wich to start from.(in other words only include civs that exsisted in that time (or atleast have its foundations there in the form of natives)
also i read ppl posting what has (for example) egypts ever done for us.
while i like the life of brian like the next man (were all individuals!...lol) i think some ppl where really serious when they posted this...im not even gonna reply to that (eventough such ignorance is unbelievable to me)..read some history books of your own if they dont teach u proper history in your (american) school.
ITS JUST ANTI AMERICA SENTIMENT;...my original post wasnt..it was just a question and i was carefull as not to offend anybody.
i REALLY dont "hate" americans people..in fact the us ppl i met in my life where nice people..
but i would be lying if i said that i understand or like a lot of stuff american politics are doing.....example:
i understand that in california is the worlds biggest porn industry,...yet its ILLEGAl there the give/recieve a blow job...WTH?
I also understand that it is legal there to beat up crack whores in gta san andreas but it is ILLEGAL for (16 yr olds) to vieuw the "hot coffee mod" wich enables u to see ur main character to have sex (he even keeps his pants on mind you...this sounds like england in victorian times.
sure its none of my bussiness...i dont live there..but there also things american politics do that does affect holland (where i live).
like americas refusal to enter any kind of envirementol project of europe, japan and a lot of other civlizized countrys...the "pollution" the the usa puts out also affects the rest of the world.
i wont even go inta iraq...again...im not saying the us is ALL wrong in this war ...its just that the us has a certian arogance that i dont like (the politics...not so much the us ppl i meet)
yeah thats it.....
let me first make some things clear (that wouldnt be needed if ppl just read the posts instead of making replys to something i never said):
I DIDNT SAY AMERICA ISNT A CIV. ...its surely is and has been the last 300 years.
I DO LIKE THE GAME. ..so ppl telling me to not play this game if i dont like the americans doesnt make sence...i just dont play the americans.
THE GAME OFFERS ALTERNATE REALITIES...this is true..but it also offers a set of "realistic" rules on witch the game is based. for example it is possible for an ancient civ to have survived in this game where in real life they didnt...but it shouldnt be possible (imo) that u can start out with a civ that "realisticly" wasnt there for another 5700 yrs.
JAPAN, GERMANY AND OTHER CIV SHOULDNT BE THERE TOO THEN...i dont agree..while you are right when you say that 4000 before christ they where nothing more then barbarians...but it where in fact those barbarians that laid the foundation for japan or germany. While in the usa it wherent the native indians that laid the foundation for the usa.
and sure its true that other civs also influenced nations (like the romans did to france and britan and many more countries (basiclly a large part of eurpe) but its mostly the original barbarians that determine what the country shoild be like.
example: i live in holland and the romans where here also (bout the same time and numbers as in england)...still holland and england today are to very different nations with their own habits architecture, culture.
AMERICA HAS DONE MUCH FOR THE WORLD>>WHAT HAVE EGYPTIANS EVER DONE TO US?...yeah its true that the usa has played a large role in the last 150 years of out history (and arguably have made more inventions then for example the aztecs ever did.)
i just dont think the acomplishments of a civ is what gives em a place in this game...it should be (like i posted earlier) that they follow the basic set of "realistic" rules from wich to start from.(in other words only include civs that exsisted in that time (or atleast have its foundations there in the form of natives)
also i read ppl posting what has (for example) egypts ever done for us.
while i like the life of brian like the next man (were all individuals!...lol) i think some ppl where really serious when they posted this...im not even gonna reply to that (eventough such ignorance is unbelievable to me)..read some history books of your own if they dont teach u proper history in your (american) school.
ITS JUST ANTI AMERICA SENTIMENT;...my original post wasnt..it was just a question and i was carefull as not to offend anybody.
i REALLY dont "hate" americans people..in fact the us ppl i met in my life where nice people..
but i would be lying if i said that i understand or like a lot of stuff american politics are doing.....example:
i understand that in california is the worlds biggest porn industry,...yet its ILLEGAl there the give/recieve a blow job...WTH?
I also understand that it is legal there to beat up crack whores in gta san andreas but it is ILLEGAL for (16 yr olds) to vieuw the "hot coffee mod" wich enables u to see ur main character to have sex (he even keeps his pants on mind you...this sounds like england in victorian times.
sure its none of my bussiness...i dont live there..but there also things american politics do that does affect holland (where i live).
like americas refusal to enter any kind of envirementol project of europe, japan and a lot of other civlizized countrys...the "pollution" the the usa puts out also affects the rest of the world.
i wont even go inta iraq...again...im not saying the us is ALL wrong in this war ...its just that the us has a certian arogance that i dont like (the politics...not so much the us ppl i meet)
yeah thats it.....
southafrica
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2005
- Messages
- 233
ngin said:
Your hysterical man? This post is total rubbish... YEAH DOWN WITH THE EGYPTIANS! I will stop on the way home at and visit one of the crack houses beat a crack ho, then buy some mcdonalds and then prey to god and hope the muslim world suffers... OH NO the sky is falling, global warming is going to kill us all, oh no we had so many hurricanes (since records have been kept!) don't forget global warming is causing the earthquakes (nature is angry!)
The war? You want to bring up the war, discusing the war is fine. There are many arguements for and against the war in iraq, except all ther other crap you bring up to support your view that America is should be eliminated shows that you have the intellectual capacity to a toaster.
(You know you can just choose NOT to have the American Civ in the game, but that would mean having to use the mouse and make an effort of it.)
You sir have made my day. (By the way... all that Egyptian, roman, greek stuff was a JOKE can you spot one?)
southafrica
Warlord
- Joined
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ngin said:
Please tell me where I fictionalized your post? Oh and I am frankly tired of these the people are great your gov't sucks, or those naive Americans who go overseas and then since they want to be like just start to worship everything foreign (when I was living abroad I always hated American tourists, I wonder how you put up with us) However the people are the gov't, the gov't can't do anything the people don't want... the fact is we as a country wanted to go to war, whether mislead or not we allowed the war to happen.
But don't worry; soon china will be the most polluting country in the world, however in Kyoto they wouldn't have to reduce emissions
PennHead
Chieftain
You know ngin, it's really ironic to lobby an insult at American schools in one sentance, and then deny having any anti-American sentiment in the next. And that's not even bringing up the rest of the American-bashing in your post.
By the way, the whole "What have the Egyptians done for us?" thing appeared pretty plainly to me to be sarchasm.
At any rate, my two cents on the subject: What makes Civilization great to me, is it takes various civilizations that made an impact on the world throughout history, and give them even start at 4000bc and let them battle for supremecy. It's about fighting wars that were impossible, rivalries that couldn't have existed, alliances that never happened. It's about taking the civ of your choice (or whichever the "random" button gives me, in my case), and attempting to build an empire to stand the test of time. Actual history is only relevant to me in that it provides the backdrop. The technological advances are the same, but the discoverers may not be. The Wonders are there, but the builders are changed.
The civs have key aspects of their identity in their leader's traits preserved, although that isn't an especially deep reproduction of how the civ actually was. Their UU gives them a potential spike in power at a roughly historically accurate time(or at least technological level), but that's where the similarity to their actual historical counterparts ends. The game is about what I make history be.
If being ancient were a prerequisite to being represented in Civ 4, then I would agree that the American's don't belong. Of course, you'd have to disqualify most of the civs in the game. However, it isn't. No clear criteria has ever been stated by the makers of the game to my knowledge. What I see, is that each civ included had their age and their contribution to history. When that happened is irrelevant to me, and apparently, Firaxis.
While it may have been dismissed by Jonathan as stupidity, I can see that Reg Pither is a guy who looks at Civilization the same as I do. This is where we, and many others find the appeal of the game. I personally believe it is what the makers of the game intended.
But all that said, everyone does have the power to make it what they want; different people like the game for different reasons, and has different expectations of it, and that's ok. It's a simple thing to make a few mouse clicks and not have the Americans in your game.
By the way, the whole "What have the Egyptians done for us?" thing appeared pretty plainly to me to be sarchasm.
At any rate, my two cents on the subject: What makes Civilization great to me, is it takes various civilizations that made an impact on the world throughout history, and give them even start at 4000bc and let them battle for supremecy. It's about fighting wars that were impossible, rivalries that couldn't have existed, alliances that never happened. It's about taking the civ of your choice (or whichever the "random" button gives me, in my case), and attempting to build an empire to stand the test of time. Actual history is only relevant to me in that it provides the backdrop. The technological advances are the same, but the discoverers may not be. The Wonders are there, but the builders are changed.
The civs have key aspects of their identity in their leader's traits preserved, although that isn't an especially deep reproduction of how the civ actually was. Their UU gives them a potential spike in power at a roughly historically accurate time(or at least technological level), but that's where the similarity to their actual historical counterparts ends. The game is about what I make history be.
If being ancient were a prerequisite to being represented in Civ 4, then I would agree that the American's don't belong. Of course, you'd have to disqualify most of the civs in the game. However, it isn't. No clear criteria has ever been stated by the makers of the game to my knowledge. What I see, is that each civ included had their age and their contribution to history. When that happened is irrelevant to me, and apparently, Firaxis.
While it may have been dismissed by Jonathan as stupidity, I can see that Reg Pither is a guy who looks at Civilization the same as I do. This is where we, and many others find the appeal of the game. I personally believe it is what the makers of the game intended.
But all that said, everyone does have the power to make it what they want; different people like the game for different reasons, and has different expectations of it, and that's ok. It's a simple thing to make a few mouse clicks and not have the Americans in your game.
southafrica said:Please tell me where I fictionalized your post? Oh and I am frankly tired of these the people are great your gov't sucks, or those naive Americans who go overseas and then since they want to be like just start to worship everything foreign (when I was living abroad I always hated American tourists, I wonder how you put up with us) However the people are the gov't, the gov't can't do anything the people don't want... the fact is we as a country wanted to go to war, whether mislead or not we allowed the war to happen.
But don't worry; soon china will be the most polluting country in the world, however in Kyoto they wouldn't have to reduce emissions
*sigh* ...im sorry if i offended u somehow...that wasnt the purpose of my post...but u *are implying things i never said....like:
---quote----Oh and I am frankly tired of these the people are great your gov't sucks----...i never said your goverment sucks..just that i dont understand it..read through my post if u dont believe me.
---quote----or those naive Americans who go overseas and then since they want to be like just start to worship everything foreign (when I was living abroad I always hated American tourists, I wonder how you put up with us)----
what has this to do with me?..i absolutely dont worship holland or europe and i never implyed that anywhere.
---quote----YEAH DOWN WITH THE EGYPTIANS! I will stop on the way home at and visit one of the crack houses beat a crack ho, then buy some mcdonalds and then prey to god and hope the muslim world suffers... OH NO the sky is falling, global warming is going to kill us all, oh no we had so many hurricanes (since records have been kept!) don't forget global warming is causing the earthquakes (nature is angry!)---- i dont know where u got this from reading my post but its by far no represantation of what i posted
---quote----You know you can just choose NOT to have the American Civ in the game, but that would mean having to use the mouse and make an effort of it----- if u bothered to read my post i specificly said i love the game and i dont care that much that the us is in it..i just dont play them.
but dont get me wrong...i DONT dislike america or think holland/europe is better...its just that i dont understand stuff america does (like the stuff i wrote in my earlier post)
also i wonder why you (southafrica) take it so personal and start calling me names and stuff(--quote---shows that you have the intellectual capacity to a toaster---)
man take it easy...its just a topic on some game forum
PennHead said:
....after reading my post again...yer right. it did get a bit out of hand i quess while i was typing..i didnt mean to bash america..but i quess i did..so im sry.
anyway..yeah beeing ancient isnt a clear prerequisite for a civ to be in the game (i just made that one up)..there are a lot of other things that could determine that...its just that i always thought what it was....ancient civs fighting for survival.
southafrica
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2005
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- 233
ngin said:
Well why didn't you take it easy and just say to yourself, don't feel like the americans fit, so they won't be in any of my games? Regardless, you made a comment that the americans you have met were nice, however you had issues with the violence vs. sex issue, american school system, global pollution, and war. So it is sort of a disclaimer, I think you guys are nice, but your gov't and society are extremely corrupt and unrational so I (being an enligtened individual just can't understand it) Don't worry I am not all riled up... it is ONLY a game
southafrica
Warlord
- Joined
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ngin said:
Sorry myself, got a bit grumpy, Civ kept me up last night and I have to be out the door by six...
Enjoy the game how YOU want it... shame they disabled the search or you would have found about 80 threads like this...
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