Americas

[Henri Christophe]

It is just not a history book - no more than the Nihon-Shoki, the Torah (and Bible), the Illiad and Odyssey, the Aeneid, the Sagas, the Arthurian cycle. All of them draw on historical facts (Schleeman found Troy, the Tel Dan style confirm that the House of David ruled Israel, and L'Anse aux Meadows is proof enough that the saga told the truth about Norse sailors reaching the Americas), but none of them are history books. It's cool to imagine a world where they really are history, but that world doesn't exist.

The Bible is a historic book, tell the history of the Jews and the Christ under Roman Empire. As Popol Vuh it's started in the biggining of times and each other book have their own age. How old is the bible in general? Let's do as Popol Vuh and set the age as the last book date.

The Vedas are also books of religion who was historic books, you forget it in your list.

 

[Evie]

The list was not meant to be exhaustive. Far from.

But the Bible, while it has history in it, is not, in fact, a history book more than any of the others I named. They're all spiritual/religious/mythological texts first, with the history being secondary.

And no, we cannot simply say "the originsl texts that served as sources of the popol vuh" are X years old - be ause we don't actually have those texts.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . It is just not a history book - no more than the Nihon-Shoki, the Torah (and Bible), the Illiad and Odyssey, the Aeneid, the Sagas, the Arthurian cycle. All of them draw on historical facts (Schleeman found Troy, the Tel Dan style confirm that the House of David ruled Israel, and L'Anse aux Meadows is proof enough that the saga told the truth about Norse sailors reaching the Americas), but none of them are history books. It's cool to imagine a world where they really are history, but that world doesn't exist.

A world where they really are history would be Historical Fantasy or just Fantasy. There are a lot of them, some very well written, but they are all sold from the Science Fiction/Fantasy shelves of the local bookstore, not the History section. I used to have the job of selling them.
As a historian, I also consider it part of my job to make sure they are properly placed, and not mistaken for real history. They are part of history: the history of belief, mythologies and cultural 'memes', but they cannot be used as records of actual events. In some cases they are part of what I like to call 'history as we want it to be leaving out the parts we don't like', a large collection of writing that includes a great deal of what people call 'history' but really isn't, like most of the official American history books or any history of World War Two based on German Generals' memoirs . . .

 

[awesome]

Yes! The potatoes are pretty clear! Not for ancient contact, but for contact at least a thousand years ago, before Europeans. Those seem to have come from South America to Polynesia around 1000AD, though there's some dispute. So possible evidence that someone (Polynesians? Americans?) were moving around that area somewhere (tsunamis can do this, too, as Fukushima wreckage on the Alaskan coast indicates, but I don't see why not outriggers from Rapa Nui or Hawaii could have made it to California or South America).

Just as a note - I'm commenting on this because I can't comment on speculative civilizations. If I were to say "X sounds cool," or even to like a post, then people would say "X is going to be in Civ!" If it's not, people will get disappointed, and if it is, people will say "we made that happen!"

Potato as a resource confirmed for Civ 7

 

[Henri Christophe]

A world where they really are history would be Historical Fantasy or just Fantasy. There are a lot of them, some very well written, but they are all sold from the Science Fiction/Fantasy shelves of the local bookstore, not the History section. I used to have the job of selling them.
As a historian, I also consider it part of my job to make sure they are properly placed, and not mistaken for real history. They are part of history: the history of belief, mythologies and cultural 'memes', but they cannot be used as records of actual events. In some cases they are part of what I like to call 'history as we want it to be leaving out the parts we don't like', a large collection of writing that includes a great deal of what people call 'history' but really isn't, like most of the official American history books or any history of World War Two based on German Generals' memoirs . . .

That's I will ever disagree. Books as the Bible or Popol Vuh are historic books, they tell the history of these people how it was.
Of course some analizes is needed, for example, don't have any register of Jews in Egypt, that may mean that the Jews was not enslaved in Egypt. And the similarity of the Noah history with Gilgamesh history. But that don't mean we can't use the Bible, or the Popol Vuh, as a good source to factual history.

Potato as a resource confirmed for Civ 7

About the potatos, if luxury resources works as in others civ games I think don't make sense to have potatoes.
Because potato isn't a luxury resource, but a source for the poor. Was widley spread in Europe after the Colombus Exchange and the population was so dependent in Ireland, for example, they starv when the potatoes in the island have a disease.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

About the potatos, if luxury resources works as in others civ games I think don't make sense to have potatoes.
Because potato isn't a luxury resource, but a source for the poor. Was widley spread in Europe after the Colombus Exchange and the population was so dependent in Ireland, for example, they starv when the potatoes in the island have a disease.

I mean bonus resources also exist, which I believe that's what potatoes would be. They would definitely add extra food, maybe exclusively on hill tiles. And of course they could be harvested.

 

[Evie]

You can ever disagree all you want, you're disagreeing with reality.

The Popol Vuh is not a history book. Scholars of the Mayans themselves say so: it is the record of legendary the origin of the K'iche/Quiche Maya, not an accurate historical record of all Mayan people. It contains kernels of historical truth, it is not a true record of history.

It would be a mistake for anyone with a true interest in history, and for Civilization, to treat it otherwise.

 

[awesome]

About the potatos, if luxury resources works as in others civ games I think don't make sense to have potatoes.
Because potato isn't a luxury resource, but a source for the poor. Was widley spread in Europe after the Colombus Exchange and the population was so dependent in Ireland, for example, they starv when the potatoes in the island have a disease.

It was a joke.
If potatoes were going to be in the game, they would be bonus resources, but I don’t actually expect them to be there.

I mean bonus resources also exist, which I believe that's what potatoes would be. They would definitely add extra food, maybe exclusively on hill tiles. And of course they could be harvested.

yeah. Again, I don’t expect them to be in the game, but I’m not sure why they would be luxury resources anyway, if they were.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

yeah. Again, I don’t expect them to be in the game, but I’m not sure why they would be luxury resources anyway, if they were.

Well for Civ 6 no I don't see it happening. I don't see why they couldn't appear for Civ 7?

Looking it up I'm actually surprised that potatoes have never appeared in a civ game before.

 

[awesome]

Well for Civ 6 no I don't see it happening. I don't see why they couldn't appear for Civ 7?

Looking it up I'm actually surprised that potatoes have never appeared in a civ game before.

Not as visually pleasing as corn, and that is a big part of it.
I could see it maybe being a city-state specific resource for Ancon, or something, but that’s still kind of a stretch.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Not as visually pleasing as corn, and that is a big part of it.
I could see it maybe being a city-state specific resource for Ancon, or something, but that’s still kind of a stretch.

Well like I mentioned above you could make it appear exclusively on hill tiles, maybe more likely to even spawn on hill tiles close to mountains. At least it would gives hills another type of food resource, which right now are only sheep.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Well like I mentioned above you could make it appear exclusively on hill tiles, maybe more likely to even spawn on hill tiles close to mountains. At least it would gives hills another type of food resource, which right now are only sheep.

I'm not sure if potatoes have some tie with hills in real life, if in civ7 we are able to hearvest in any place, I don't see hills as unique option, it may have change for each strategy.
But I think is fundamental change the position of resources a long tha game, this static behaviour as civ 5 and 6 it so unreal.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well like I mentioned above you could make it appear exclusively on hill tiles, maybe more likely to even spawn on hill tiles close to mountains. At least it would gives hills another type of food resource, which right now are only sheep.

The fundamental fact about potatoes is that they grow in much more marginal soils and biomes than most 'basic' food crops and provide more calories per acre than most of the grains. Consequently, they made a major difference in the amount of population that could be supported/fed in northern Europe after the potato was introduced.
- And not just in Ireland. The population increases that resulted from adding potatoes as a staple crop in places like Sweden and Prussia made it possible for those two relatively small and weak countries to become military powerhouses in the 17th and early 18th centuries. Without the extra food resource from potatoes, Frederick the Great's Prussian Army and Charles XII's Swedish Army would have both been much smaller than they were.

As to how to represent that in game terms, I'd say a Plains or Grassland Hill or even Tundra Hill placement would be appropriate for the resource, and I suggest that it might also add an 'amenity' effect because potatoes being relatively easy to grow and store, it would remove some of the starvation anxiety from the lower 90% of the population - until the infamous Potato Blight hits, which you might or might not want to include in the game . . .

 

[Patine]

It was a joke.
If potatoes were going to be in the game, they would be bonus resources, but I don’t actually expect them to be there.


yeah. Again, I don’t expect them to be in the game, but I’m not sure why they would be luxury resources anyway, if they were.

The lack of a, "luxury," resource does not lead to an infamous famine named after it in Ireland...

 

[BuchiTaton]

Potato is now the fourth biggest staple food in the world and like was said above fits in game as a food bonus resource that can thrive in cold climate.

I would like to have a Tiwanaku city state that provide you copies of Potato to place in cities with the proper terrian/climate.
By the way Llamas would be another great andine resource that could provide Food and Production bonuses for montane cities.

 

[Henri Christophe]

By the way Llamas would be another great andine resource that could provide Food and Production bonuses for montane cities.

I like the idea of Llamas, maybe it can be worked for every state who found it on map, and also have another domestical animals as cows, horses, elephants and camels.
I would like an animals as Elephant are able to use as military unit for all who has it as resource.
Maybe theses animals can be move around the map, and even be exctint.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm not sure if potatoes have some tie with hills in real life, if in civ7 we are able to hearvest in any place, I don't see hills as unique option, it may have change for each strategy.

Well the origins of potatoes centered around Peru, Ecuador and the highlands of Bolivia. For those reasons hills would be fine, considering I doubt we will see resources being on mountain tiles.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Well the origins of potatoes centered around Peru, Ecuador and the highlands of Bolivia. For those reasons hills would be fine, considering I doubt we will see resources being on mountain tiles.

As discussed when we talk about the first men in Americas, is unknown if Potatoes are original of Americans rough territory or from the flat islands of Oceania.
I mean, my personal believe is the potatoes are original of Americas because have more diversity of potatoes here, in Americas, than in Oceania. But still is an unknown where it come from.

Despite I like to discuss about potatoes, let's back to Meso-American sub-topic here.

If the Toltecs are so mythological to fit in this game (what I will ever disagree), which other meso-american can have the 3rd spot in the game? (after the Aztecs and Mayas).

First we have the dual rivals, Mixtecs and Zapotecs. Of these two I would prefer the Zapotecs, because I can found more source about Zapotecs and they seems to be older than Mixtecs and have unique achivments as, maybe, be the founder of meso-american calendar and alphabet.

Second we have the Purepécha/Tarascos. I don't know that much about they, but as said @Evie they are the Persians of the Roman's Aztecs.

Third we have the Tlaxcaltecas, they are one of my favorites to fit this 3rd spot because they was one of the oldest (if not the oldest) Republic in Americas. They helped the Spaniards in Mexico conquest and was an independent civilization untill around ~1700.

I'm missing some other civilization of Meso america? Of course there is the Olmecs, but I don't will put them in it list because we don't even know their language and leaders names. Who more can fit in this meso-american list?

 

[Evie]

I'm a total sellout on the case for the Purépecha. They are obscure, yes (undeservedly so)., but they were the archrivals of the Aztec Empire, fighting them to a standstill on their western border for most of their existence. They also were unique in Mesoamerica in their extensive use of metalworking even for tools (some sources mentions weapons, at that, though I'm a little waryy), which it's believed they may have perfected in parts due to maintaining links with South America and the Andes.

Their language is also an isolate, unrelated to any of the Mesoamerican language, and scholars are lost on whether that means they're descended from a very old population of pre-Nahua times, or from a very young population that only migrated recently (South America occasionally coming up as a candidate origin)

The Zapotec or Mixtec would not be bad choices though!

Tlaxcala given its shared culture with the Aztec and its limited geographic scope I see more as as City State candidate.

 

[FishFishFish]

The only reason I think the Mixtecs would be a better pick then the Zapotecs is because they could have Eight Deer Jaguar Claw as their leader.

Unfortunately the Zapotecs leaders that we know of aren't on the same caliber as him.