Americas

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Of course, going into the question of what the Sioux and general Siouan speaking people of the Upper Mississippi valley were up to in the 1300s opens the can of worm that is the Mississippian (and Mississippian-adjacent) inheritance (eg, cultures that weren't ethnicalky related to the Mississippians but who adopted many of their patterns; here, Oneonta, possibly Fort Ancient though that could be Algonquian too...and, yeah I did say can of worms) since there's a solid case that the more northerly Mississippian-influenced culture may correlate with the Siouan speaking people who inhabited the Ohio and Mississipoi valley to quasi-historical times.

Well I think when most people say they want the Sioux, they are specifically talking about the Lakota lead by Sitting Bull. And honestly that's already been done twice in Civ.

It's just that, where I live (in Canada) the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee) are not at all an obscure topic of history or parlance, and mentioned, if not ubiquitously, notably often as First Nations go, along with Cree (including the Saulteaux), Miq'maq, Gwi\chin, and Haida, probably being the five most commonly mentioned I hear about in history and modern parlance (taking into account that Inuit are not a First Nation, by definition, but distinct).

Other than the Iroquois, I never grew up learning about any of them you listed being from the U.S. The Cherokee, Lakota/Sioux, Navajo/Apache, Shawnee (Tecumseh and War of 1812), Shoshone (well at least Sacagawea), Powhatan (Jamestown and Pocahontas), and the Narragansett/Wampanoag (tribe associated with the first Thanksgiving) are much more well known for reasons at least in the general education of the U.S., not counting knowledge of local tribes near where people live. I would have known nothing about the Cree until they were announced in Civ 6.

I don't live in Canada, but I wouldn't have said the same to you about the Maori even though I live in New Zealand.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting to mention and would be something to think about if the Iroquois are in Civ 7. Their federations, longhouses, matriarchial traditions are foreign to me. Same to you with Maori maraes. I live a few blocks from one in the city. Don't talk so condesendingly, not everyone hears about the Iroquois every week. At least tell us more about it.

Well to be fair I never knew the how matrilineal the Iroquois were until I joined the forum, despite me being from the U.S.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Well I think when most people say they want the Sioux, they are specifically talking about the Lakota lead by Sitting Bull. And honestly that's already been done twice in Civ.

I was thinking in Sitting Bull when said about Sioux, he was a remarkble leader and can appear again and again in the game

Aliquippa is a she. If the Iroquois were to get a female leader I think Jigonhsasee would be a far more compelling leader.

I agree Jigonhsasee should be Iroquois leader, because at least I can find source about she in the internet, meanwhile this Aliquippa still a mystery for me.

 

[Krajzen]

As a person from Poland, I think Americans in general overestimate global knowledge about Native American ethnic groups, which are very very tiny on a global scale after all

In Poland people are aware of Iroquis, Sioux, Comanche, Apache (nobody here ever knows their proper, indigenous, not insulting names though) and thats about it if you dont have strong interest in the topic.

 

[Phrozen]

As a person from Poland, I think Americans in general overestimate global knowledge about Native American ethnic groups, which are very very tiny on a global scale after all

In Poland people are aware of Iroquis, Sioux, Comanche, Apache (nobody here ever knows their proper, indigenous, not insulting names though) and thats about it if you dont have strong interest in the topic.

Even in America the history of the native tribes is usually regional. In Washington state for example you learn about the Nez Pearce, Salish, and others. Texas the Comanche, Kiowa, and others. Usually we have state history classes which we go over the native tribes in the area at the time of historical contact.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Of course, going into the question of what the Sioux and general Siouan speaking people of the Upper Mississippi valley were up to in the 1300s opens the can of worm that is the Mississippian (and Mississippian-adjacent) inheritance (eg, cultures that weren't ethnicalky related to the Mississippians but who adopted many of their patterns; here, Oneonta, possibly Fort Ancient though that could be Algonquian too...and, yeah I did say can of worms) since there's a solid case that the more northerly Mississippian-influenced culture may correlate with the Siouan speaking people who inhabited the Ohio and Mississipoi valley to quasi-historical times.

Some time ago I read a book that analyzed the 'Winter Count' calendars that the Souix created to keep track of events: the closest thing to a 'written chronicle' of their history. Unfortunately, unless some new ones have been found, none of them go back further than the late 18th century, so everything before that is, basically, Creative Guesswork and archeology. - And unfortunately, while archeology can tell a lot about physical culture and nowadays even about the genetic composition of the population from increasingly accurate DNA recovery, it isn't nearly as good at revealing linguistic relationships among people, even if they share DNA markers.
Short of some semi-magical new archeological/historical data retrieval technique, we are left to SWAG the precise Siouan or other native groups' relationships before literate observers began recording them.

What we do know with pretty good accuracy is when various groups adopted horses and gunpowder weapons and became the groups as they are characterized by the public now - nobody identifies the Sioux as great rice eaters even if that might have been an accurate description for most of their existence as a separate group, and nobody defines the Comanche as a bunch of pedestrians coming out of the mountains, even though that is what they were when they first appear on the (historical) scene.
We are left to do the best we can with what we got . . .

 

[Henri Christophe]

Speaking about education system, here in Brazil I don't believe the population are aware who was native tribes of USA.
I just discover the Iroquois because civ 5, and now I think they are very important human group understimate.
Shoshone too I was very unnaware.

Here in Brazil we all taught about Aztecs, Mayas and Incas (during the spanish conquest) and the native americans of Brazil, they called them Tupi-Guarani as just big one entitiy. As I'm from Rio de Janeiro I also had class about the Native americans of this area, they are the Tupinambá who was rival of Tupiniquins of São Paulo.

 

[Xandinho]

Unfortunately, the only Native American groups that are widely known to people in general are Aztecs, Incas, Mayans and perhaps Iroquois. The others are only known to someone who is an applied student of history. The Mapuches are unknown to non-Chilean South Americans, and they are even more unknown to people outside South America. Cree is largely unknown to people outside Canada. I'm pretty sure that almost no one outside Brazil has heard of the Tupis or Garanis.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Unfortunately, the only Native American groups that are widely known to people in general are Aztecs, Incas, Mayans and perhaps Iroquois. The others are only known to someone who is an applied student of history. The Mapuches are unknown to non-Chilean South Americans, and they are even more unknown to people outside South America. Cree is largely unknown to people outside Canada. I'm pretty sure that almost no one outside Brazil has heard of the Tupis or Garanis.

I agree with this. The Cree and the Mapuche were really the only civs from Civ 6 that I really never knew about before they were announced. And the Aztecs, Inca and the Maya were the only non U.S. natives that I even learned about in school, and that was only from lessons about Spanish conquest of the New World.

 

[bene_legionary]

Unfortunately, the only Native American groups that are widely known to people in general are Aztecs, Incas, Mayans and perhaps Iroquois. The others are only known to someone who is an applied student of history. The Mapuches are unknown to non-Chilean South Americans, and they are even more unknown to people outside South America. Cree is largely unknown to people outside Canada. I'm pretty sure that almost no one outside Brazil has heard of the Tupis or Garanis.

Yeah, I've heard most of these from EU4, and I don't think EU4 is the best place to be learning histories of native people.

 

[Henri Christophe]

The last region of Americas, but not less important, is the Caribean.
I can see 4 potential civs. Haiti lead by Toussaint L'Ouverture, Jamaica lead by Queen Nanny, Cuba lead by Fidel Castro and the Tainos lead by Agüeybaná
Other states of Caribean I can't see as civ material, as Bahamas I don't know a good name to be a leader and Puerto Rico still not independent.
And the other islands I don't have knowledge to design a civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I can see 4 potential civs. Haiti lead by Toussaint L'Ouverture, Jamaica lead by Queen Nanny, Cuba lead by Fidel Castro and the Tainos lead by Agüeybaná

Out of those I think only really Haiti and the Taino are viable options. Jamaica only achieved independence in the 1960s and Cuba's only viable leaders are controversial.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Jamaica only achieved independence in the 1960

Despite the year of independence of Jamaica, Queen Nanny should be a leader of the 17-18 century who fought and won battles against the British and was a precursor of Slave revolts in Caribe. It should have Maroon as Unique Units.
Maybe the Jamaican revolution isn't so amazing as Haitian revolution, but still a great milestone in Black history of Americas.

Cuba's only viable leaders are controversial.

Cuba also has the Carlos Manuel de Céspedes as possible leader, but it is incomparable how Fidel Castro is more iconic as Cuban leader than Céspedes.

 

[Patine]

I don't live in Canada, but I wouldn't have said the same to you about the Maori even though I live in New Zealand.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting to mention and would be something to think about if the Iroquois are in Civ 7. Their federations, longhouses, matriarchial traditions are foreign to me. Same to you with Maori maraes. I live a few blocks from one in the city. Don't talk so condesendingly, not everyone hears about the Iroquois every week. At least tell us more about it.

Too be honest, I had thought you meant a general, "we," and not a regional, "we," and that was my error, and I apologize. Although, I'm almost afraid to say that, due to people I've known in life and other factors of my own experience, I do know significantly more about Maoris than most Canadians...

 

[bene_legionary]

I do know significantly more about Maoris than most Canadians...

Civ 6 might have helped with that? In seriousness it's all good.

I think Haiti is a good postcolonial option, I don't know enough about the Taino. Are the Taino one of the Carib people?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Despite the year of independence of Jamaica, Queen Nanny should be a leader of the 17-18 century who fought and won battles against the British and was a precursor of Slave revolts in Caribe. It should have Maroon as Unique Units.
Maybe the Jamaican revolution isn't so amazing as Haitian revolution, but still a great milestone in Black history of Americas.

I mean that was still when Jamaica was a colony, and she was actually leading maroon settlements against the British colony of Jamaica. It really just seems like a second Haiti in terms of theme and playstyle, but instead it's Anglophone.

I think Haiti is a good postcolonial option, I don't know enough about the Taino. Are the Taino one of the Carib people?

The Taino are the indigenous group that Christopher Columbus first met when he arrived in the Americas. They primarily inhabited the northern islands of the Caribbean of what is now Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominican Republic). Caguana, a city-state in Civ 6, is a Taino city.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

The Taino and Carib were the two major opposing groups in the Caribbean just before Columbus. The quick portrait is that the Caribs were raiders and the Tainos were farmers. It also should be noted that in most pre-modern, non-Western groups, ethnicity is more about a way of life than about descent.

 

[Xandinho]

Tainos led by Anacaona would be amazing. It would be an opportunity to have represented a very empty region in the franchise. Caguana as city-state was only added late into the game.

Kingston would be a nice cultural city-state to represent Jamaica. It could allow you to buy Reggae singer civilian unit.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Tainos led by Anacaona would be amazing

Anacaona should be an amazing option since she is a woman and we also need more female leaders in this game.

Kingston would be a nice cultural city-state to represent Jamaica. It could allow you to buy Reggae singer civilian unit.

I'm not a fan of capital cities become a city-state in the game, so I would prefer Port Royal to be a city state of Jamaica who spawn pirates ships.
But, if Kingston become a city-state it can spawn Rastafari who can works as singer civilian, as you said, or as priests. Maybe both.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm not a fan of capital cities become a city-state in the game, so I would prefer Port Royal to be a city state of Jamaica who spawn pirates ships.

I don't care if capital cities become city-states or not, but I would love to get a pirate city-state from the Caribbean. Either Port Royal or Nassau would work.

 

[Krajzen]

Unfortunately, the only Native American groups that are widely known to people in general are Aztecs, Incas, Mayans and perhaps Iroquois. The others are only known to someone who is an applied student of history. The Mapuches are unknown to non-Chilean South Americans, and they are even more unknown to people outside South America. Cree is largely unknown to people outside Canada. I'm pretty sure that almost no one outside Brazil has heard of the Tupis or Garanis.

Olmecs should be counted fourth major recognized civ because they are present in popcultural consciousness thanks to H E A D S and being frequently mentioned as an ancient progenitor of all Mesoamericans.

Nazca are sometimes known because of Nazca lines
Pueblo are sometimes known because of Mesa Verde and other "wow how cool those stone cities are" giving them some popcultural coverage
Guaranis are sometimes, rarely, known because of their crazy history with missions and missionaries which got them few books and movies
In Poland Iroquis/Mohawk ("badass cool forest warrior Native Americans") are vaguely recognized along Sioux, Apache and Comanche ("badass cool plains bisons horsemen featherdress Native Americans" ) and more rarely Navajo ("badass cool desert NAs who were code talkers during ww2").
There is also some vague consciousness of "all those Amazon peoples live in stereotypical harmony with nature".


Frankly I am not that shocked by other Mesoamericans, Native American tribes and Andeans being overshadowed by those few dominating ones. Incans just crush other Andean civs by their size and level of documentation, Aztecs and Maya basically inherited the vast majority of Meso achievements anyway while being very distinctive, and NA tribes are just too many for casual people to be aware of many od them at once. Tupi, Arawak, Taino and few other groups also were unfortunate enough to neither achieve super spectacular unique stuff nor survive long after European arrival.

What actually surprises me its how extremely obscure Muisca, Mapuche and the entire Missisipi civilizations area seem to be outside of their respective modern countries, now those are very distinctive and spectacular cultures - El Dorado, very succesful resistance against white man and everything about the latter.

Also not sure why Caral never catched on to not be super obscure for mortals, it is super ancient civilization with its own pyramids and cool stuff after all, while Nazca and Olmecs got attention.