Amurite fun

[KillerClowns]

I have learned a valuable lesson. In my most recent game as Keelyn, I just got smacked by the Amurite worldspell. My entire attack force consisted of Saverous, Hemah, and two liches. Before Arcane Lacuna, I was an unstoppable force of nature, hurling aside empires like sandcastles. Then Dain snapped his fingers. I managed to threaten him into capitulation (the AI didn't understand my entire military was going to fade out of existence in three turns), but lately I've been practically polishing Arendel's shoes to convince her not to wipe me out...
That worldspell hurts for anyone relying too heavily on magical warfare.

 

[Imuratep]

But the point with Arcane Lacuna is that it's only really good in MP. The AI can't handle magic and most of them aren't using it at all. I've never seen Keelyn summoning a giant stack of air elementals or doing something that could be really considered a treat and you don't cast your worldspell unless you think it is very useful in your current situation.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Would be quite funny if you have hordes of Wizards which carry a spellstaff for the Archmage, which casts dozens of spells each turn this way. Perhaps you could allow the Amurites to build spellstaff equipments in their cities, but you should probably make it a national unit with a certain limit. But I don't know if it is possible to limit the number of units with a certain promotion.
Perhaps buildable one-time-use artifacts (Or buildable artifacts in general) could be a theme of the Amurites. They could build different magical artifacts, but you need certain Mana Sources to create them (Life Mana for Healing Salves, Shadow Mana for Potion of Invisibility and some Potions, which temporally grant you Affinity for a certain sphere or cast a certain Spell like Stoneskin.) With more advanced magical techs you could build more powerful artifacts (like Rod of Winds, Scorched Staff and Jade Torc).

I REALLY like this idea. Amurites building artifacts for their heroes/archmages would be awesome

 

[Ksi]

I REALLY like this idea. Amurites building artifacts for their heroes/archmages would be awesome

I like it too. If this building of items/artefacts was coupled with some building that gives units a random tier 1 spells depending on the mana the amurites possess I think they would be very flavorful and certainly not unbalanced.

Microing Gov a little less would be nice too.

 

[Merddyn]

You know, I don't think there's a need to make the spell-staff's a limited item if we're going to have them as equipment; Basically taking/dropping all equipment as it is counts as a spell, so you're not going to be able to take one the same turn as you cast a spell in order to cast another. Once again, this brings back the staff's benefit of costing you one turn of casting to make it in order to cast it a second time. And if you want to have a bunch of wizards carrying them for another mage, you have to spend the turn to make it, a turn to give it to the wizard (at least for most equipment, it seems both the holder and the receiver have to still be able to cast spells and lose that ability), and the turn you use to gve them the staff. That's three turns in order to be able to cast two spells in one turn, which is not really a bad way to go. Even if you can make it and hand it off to someone the same turn, it's two turns of casting in order to make a single other unit cast twice in one turn, so it's not a bad trade-off.

That said, I have been wanting to be able to make spell-staffs for my other mages for a long time now, so I would enjoy this idea. It never really made sense to me that it was glued to the arch-mage's hand and all.

As for the making other artifacts as the Amurites, I kind of like the idea; afterall, where are those artifacts such as the Netherblade for Rathus Denmora coming from? Either they found an artifact from the Age of Magic while training him or whatever, or they have the capacity to make more. I'd just have to suggest there be a world limit on the items; First of all, they're supposed to be rare anyway, and second-of-all, if it's a national limit, you can just let an enemy, or a de-facto ally capture one, then build another. And, potentially, capture it back if you want more of it.

 

[KillerClowns]

As for the making other artifacts as the Amurites, I kind of like the idea; afterall, where are those artifacts such as the Netherblade for Rathus Denmora coming from?

Er, he got it from a somewhat rebellious angel of Arawn. Who, I suspect, is not producing these on an industrial scale.
Most other magical items are similar. The Gela is a demonic artifact, obviously. The Horsemen's weapons represent a fragment of the greatest fears of the Gods. The Empty Bier is just an empty bier, but I suspect it got a few mystical modifications made to it while its owner (forget his name) was fighting demons off, ones likely not easy when not in Hell. The Black Mirror is a fragment of a mirror in Agares' Hell; see the Cycle of Beltane, I don't recall exactly where. Those are the ones I can think of...
Making more potions seems reasonable, though, and maybe a few of the dungeon artifacts; the Jade Torc and Rod of Winds, for instance, have no incredible story behind them...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Rathaus got the Netherblade from an angel that used to serve Arawn, but neither Arawn or said angel was involved in making it. The Netherblade is a creation of Laroth, the greatest master of spirit magic. The blade is forged from (or at least enchanted with) the souls of possibly thousands of deceased mortals unfortunately enough to have passed into a religion of the Netherworld that Laroth controlled. Laroth found that these souls lacked the strength of will to understand what was happening or to be an effective soldiers in his war against Arawn, so he infused them all into a blade designed to bring him heroes that would be more useful to him. I'm sure Laroth could make more such items, but many innocent souls would have to perish.


We have no evidence of how the Gela was formed. For all we know it was nce a holy artifact that was corrupted, as most things that serve Agares are.


The Four Horsemen's weapons, like the horsemen themselves, are the manifestation of the fears in the gods collective unconsciousness.

The Godslayer is the manifestation of the gods conscious decision to abide by The Compact.

The Empty Bier is just an empty Bier that Donal took from Bhall's temple just as his goddess fell and dragged him into hell. I don't quite remember, but I'm thinking it might have been his bier, and that he was thought to be dead but woke up alive just in time to be dragged into hell. It served as his shield for centuries of battle in hell.

Orthus's Axe was formed when Orthus got a hold of the once holy scepter of Bhall's high priest and used it as the haft of an otherwise rather ordinary axe.

The Black Mirror in Agares hell was broken and the shard was taken by Cernunnos in Beltane Chapter 2, but it took a few more chapters for Alazkan to get it.

I don't think we have any evidence of what the other items or or how they came to be.







Presumably, Govannon's students like Laroth have the skill to make very powerful artifacts, but that may be difficult for modern mages. Also, their greater numbers make it hard to channel enough mana to enchant objects as powerfully.

 

[KillerClowns]

...I don't think we have any evidence of what the other items or or how they came to be...

I'm pretty sure we can agree that the dungeon artifacts are from the Age of Magic, though they may or may not have even been especially remarkable then. (EDIT: Presumably, many dungeons are the ruins of what were once mages' lairs.) I feel safe saying they weren't unique, but I'm also sure they weren't mass produced.
The question of why such artifacts cannot be re-made is a good one. Slightly off topic, but anyone have evidence of where Patria was relative to the tech tree, approximately, before Mulcarn was summoned to dispense some indiscriminate mayhem?

 

[Night Hawk125]

I really like the Amurites, but I don't think they are the scholar faction yet that they should be. I had this idea to perhaps solve it. All Amurite people can use magic right? and they are not the most warlike civ ingame according background anyway. So I though, give every Arcane unit a demobilize option, you can demobilize adapt (wiz, archmage) in a city and they become a mini-sage (sage or great sage would be to powerfull I think) and they give +1 research (or maybe you can choose +1 gold or +1 hammer etc) A bit like wane spell the Sidar have, but less powerfull. But when in war! Unlike the Sidar you can build a mobilize ritual (take about 1/2 turns to build) in your cities that will mobilize every arcane unit in that city for war.
I think something like this would make the Amurites much closer to how they should be according the background info.

 

[Merddyn]

Problem is, that basically gives them mini-sage factories in every city, which MAY become a bit too powerful. Furthermore, logically speaking, wouldn't they maintain the promotions and all that that they had had before? That'd work in a colonization game, because the colonists remember their promotions (speak from experience, though I'm disappointed my scout-made-dragoon couldn't keep his reduce movement cost abilities. Except if I made him a scout again.). However, BTS probably wouldn't. Regardless, that seems like it may be getting just a bit too powerful.

One of my discarded ideas was that, since they're a magic based civilization, perhaps every raw mana node they have routes to could give them a boost to researching arcane technologies, perhaps until (or even after, it's a pretty big hit they're taking have a raw mana node after that point) they have Knowledge of the Ether.

 

[Night Hawk125]

You probably right about being to powerfull, i had in my mind that iets great sage gave 8 research and not 6 so you would need to build 9 to adepts to surpasse one great sage, that is quite a bit especially early ingame. Mmm I also don't know if it's possible with the promotions, but I do still think the Amurite magical/research civilization should be a bit beter represented

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Amurites are my favorite civ, and the first one I tried. I totaly disagree that they are weak. In fact, I believe that they are already very powerful early or late game nomatter. I have had no difficulties in winning all games I have played with. They research really *fast* building elder counsils really early in the game, then libraries. I remember the first thing that did not like in the other civs I played was the fact that they could not build elder councils as early...anyway. So, what else do they need? Early research power means having the advandage from the beginning. You cannot train a unit without having the tech researched. The way of playing such a Civ it is really a matter of choice. Their swordsmen are not weaker than the ones for other civs. Nor their archers. They start with body, fire and metamagic mana which give them access to a number of very useful spells even at adept level. When Sorcery is researched, and this is usually much before any other civ researches it, Amurites are the dominant power of the game.
So, I really think that this discussion about the "weak" Amurites is because most people dislike the seamingly "defensive" start the Amurites must employ, guarding their borders and having a typical defensive army as any other civ would. Adepts with Blaze, Haste and Floating eye seam useless, although if you happen to get in an early war, all three can be useful(try using blaze on forest tiles to reduce the defensive value of that tile...).
It is obvious that most people would try to research sorcery at once, and thus is the "weak" early game Amurites misconception. Of course this is not a sound strategy. After researching Knowledge of the Ether, Amurates have to turn the research on some critical things like mining and bronge working, OR archery OR Hunting. In other words, research a technology that can give you a decent defensive unit like Swordsman, Archer or Hunter. Then the way is clear for aiming to Sorcery. But this is ONLY if you really want to play the civ as an Arcane dominant power. Nothing prevents you from researching horseback riding for example, to have a mobile force that can counter any early attacks. And, we should not forget that Amurites research all these, faster than the rest of the world, provided that, of course, every city has an elder counsil build as the first building.
I have never had any real problems with early attacks, because I had produced enough adepts, which we should not forget *is* a military unit and the strength of 3 is as much as the warriors strength, to be considered *tough* target by the AI, enough to leave me at peace with my research.
Anyway the point to all this is that the Amurites are not any weaker than any other Civ, it is just that you have to play it just as you would any other civ, and not try to rush to Sorcery, so that you can get the "powerful" Mages.
As I continue to play with differend civs, I see that Kael and the rest of this remarkable team have done a great job in balancing the civs. So they are much different in the way you handle the game but, really, noone is that powerful that it spoils the game. All the arguments presented in this thread are sound, just like all arguments that favour one or another civ. Everyone focuses on the experiences they have playing the game against the AI, and thinking how powerful is this or that combination of forces.
This is just another proof that this mod is a great piece of work and that it is balanced, and the Amurites are not weak, just try playing a multiplayer, with no AI, and have Amurites be played by someone familiar with their strategy.

I do not bother building any catapults in my games, I prefer fireball mages or summons or maelstroms to soften the enemy. Catapults are very slow, and an easier target for assassins than adepts or mages. Besides, Fireball mages with mobility 2 can soften from 4 tiles away, outside the range of any assassin.

 

[Imuratep]

The way you describe it you could have won with any other civilization too. (I won't start recommending a higher difficulty as I don't know what difficulty you are playing) Early elder councils are connected with Ancient Chants + Philosophical (actually only Ancient Chants) and early libraries are also nothing especially linked to the Amurites.
You can ignore all special buildings, all special units of all civilizations - if you're a good player I doesn't matter. But IMHO the bigger differentiations between the civilizations (and of course the fantasy setting) is the reason to play FFH. If I wanted an universal strategy with a slight modification for each civilization I would play BTS. You want hordes of mages - just build hordes of adepts in early game. You want fireballs, summons, maelstrom? - get firemana, deathmana, airmana. The only thing that really makes them unique is Govannon and IMHO that's not enough.
But I never make a criticism, without making a suggestion by myself.
They are supposed to be the mage civ, that make their studies to finally fully understand arcane energy. So what would fit the Amurites better than to try to win a Tower victory? But they aren't really supported by the game in completing it. So how about a unique national wonder that gets them one generic mana (mana that does actually nothing). This mana can be converted to a certain mana type by some unique buildings similar to the new tailors and jewelers of the Kuriotates (Similar to national park in vanilla that consumes coal, this buildings should all consume the generic mana, so you would have to make a decision which mana you want in your cities).

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Actually I have won twice the Tower of Mastery victory. I play at Noble and I do consider moving to a higher difficulty, but I want to try all civs at the same difficulty first, just to have an opinion under equal terms on them.
And, I do play the Amurites by building many adepts and nodes, using the dispel magic provided by the metamagic mana to change my new spells as I will. I just have described different strategies to follow, to prove that Amurites are not weak as stated by some players, in regard with other civs.
In addition, as much Arcane focused as a civilization may wish to be, it surerly cannot disregard the rest of the army. IMHO, the strategy is depended on the type of the game you wish to play with a civ, and if you wish to play using exclusively arcane units its fine. Just be prepared for whatever the AI may throw at you, don't label the civ as weak, just because you want to neglet broader aspects of the game.
I like using magic, and I produce 2 - 3 adepts in every game, regardless the civ, because they are useful. If you do not have an Arcane trait, though, you cannot expect too much from the Arcane branch, unless you are adaptive, and can swich to Arcane at turn 200 or so(in a normal speed game), when it really counts.
Amurites are a fun civ to play if you want magic to play a serious part in your strategy, but mining is as crucial to Amurites as to any other civ. In fact, you need hammers to produce your units and buildings, so you need mines. This is a basic strategy. If you want a challenge, rush the Sorcery tech, but you will surerly have a difficult early game time, and you may need all the creativity you have to get out in one piece. I have done it, but I can not say the civ is weak because I wanted a challege.
"Well, ok, lets see what my adepts can do against those horsemen and bronze axemen until I can get sorcery and produce the mages that will fireball them away, considering the fact I can only build warriors and adepts until then"
If I fail, it does not mean Amurites are weak, it does mean I am not *that* good yet, so I have to revise my strategy.
I did the same with Calabim. Rushed to Feudalism, but I covered my rears by researching Octapus first. I did have a *difficult* early game, lost my capital twice to Bannor, had to revise my strategy and research horseback riding to counter the enemy temporarily by pillaging their roads and hindering their advance(Bannor had Dacius with commando promotion for free), etc... This does not make early Calabim weak, it proves that everything has a pron and a con.
Anyway, I believe that, anyway you choose to play it, it is fun. Amurites are not weaker than Balsheraphs or Calabim, they are just different. They exist so that people who like the style this civ encourages, like me, to be able to enjoy themselves.
Besides, I think that a reason the Amurite's AI is so weak is because, in any other case, the Amurites would have been unstoppable. The difficult part of programming AI is to balance it, the easy part is to make it unbeatable.

 

[Imuratep]

You can expect enough Mages even without Arcane. Build ten adepts after researching knowledge of ether and don't focus on sorcery and if you finally have Sorcery you got mages. But even if you don't do this and just build as many adepts as usual: This is the effect of Arcane not an explicit strength of the Amurites. As I said the only special thing about them is Cave of Ancestors and Govannon. All strategies you describe you could as well use with any other civilization that has an Arcane leader. Dispel is a spell you can use with mages. Metamagic nodes are also available at Sorcery. So it is no strategy especially linked to the Amurites. I could exchange every word you say with "Sheaim" under the lead of Tebryn and I would still have the option to get Eater of Dreams and I would profit from Planar Gates and would conquer my opponents easily with Pyrozombies (a strategy the AI uses quite well). Perhaps I would have to wait about 10 turns longer till my adepts are mages, but essentially it's same.
Enough of my friends love the Amurites and the style they propose, but they say the same: The basic idea of Amurites is fantastic, but compared with other civilizations they lack unique powers. Noone can use the powers vampires have except Calabim. Everyone can use the spells the Amurite mages have (except Govannon's powers which are like I said really impressive).
And concerning Balseraph: Try Keelyn with Gibbon Goetia.

 

[Night Hawk125]

I don't think it's about that the Amurites are weak, they aren't (imho). To me atleast it's just that they need something more unique that defines them more as a different civilization from the others.

 

[someone67]

Even more fun with Govannon:

-Govannon can get death 3 and cast lichdom.
-any unit promoted to life 3 can bring him back to life
=>you get a Lich with hero promotion!

BTW, has anyone here ever played the AltAmurites mod?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=287683

The units and buildings catch the flavor quite well.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

And how many turns longer until they are Archmages?
However, I have to agree that what I say applies to any civilization with a leader having the Arcane trait...
There are the firebows, of course... Really discouraging enemy ships approaching the shores, and perfect in weakening an enemy even when no mages are around...
I do want something more for the Amurites, so that to have them stand as an Elite in the usage of the Arcane, but I do not think they are weak.
The technology tree leading to sorcery is not a unique one, but starting with ancient chants gives a headstart, anyway.
I would really like them to have a Magic ability that will not be available to the other civs, something like the unique technology of Lannun, but for an Arcane ability.
Anyway, threads like this one are quite common for every game, where players are complaining for factions being weaker than the others or that some are overpowered etc. The developers have announced v 0.40 as final, and I didn't see anything concerning the Amurites in the chanelog, unless I missed something.
I guess we will have to be content with what we have or mod it ourselves, so that we get what we think would be more appropriate.

Edit:
I agree with Night_Hawk125. Being weak is different than not being Unique enough. I do not disagree that they need something to make them more unique. I just think they are not weak.
And the point someone67 makes is correct. However, most people argue about Amurites having a weak start/mid-game, this is why I concentrated more on the pre-Govannon stages of the game.

 

[Jules.lt]

Well, you would expect the Everyone-is-a-mage faction to be weaker before the mid-late game when their mages actually have some firepower.
They still need something more unique. Maybe something that helps them get there?
What about if their Mage's guilds produced some research towards the various magical techs, to represent the mages' experimentations?
I would find that flavourful and strategically fitting.
That leaves the amount of research given to decide.

 

[Imuratep]

No civilization is really weak in the hand of a good player. The Amurites are weak in the early game as they have no support in this state of game. Of course as with any civilization you can lead an early game war, can defend with the units anyone has against, so you're not screwed early game and I never meant that (This only would be the case if they had no axeman equivalent or something like that).
Don't understand me wrong. I don't want them to have a strong early game as this wouldn't fit their flavor.
Jules.It's idea is something I have thought of quite some time.
A mage guild that functions like an additional elder council certainly would not be broken and would perfectly fit the flavor.
Add a better Alchemy Lab and we have an excellent researcher civ.
Also the firebows could deal some extra firedamage that hits all units in the stack of the attacker if they get a defensive strike (I love that new mechanic).