it-ogo
Hedgehog
- Joined
- May 23, 2007
- Messages
- 589
Wow! I am pleased.
Happy to produce some enjoy.
Amurites - a little plain? - thoughts and ideas
- Thread starter DREWid
- Start date
Happy to produce some enjoy.Adding "flavour" to the Amurites doesn't have to involve anything to do with making them more powerful. Just some custom models for their arcane units would go sooo far. And giving the Archmage a new name -- after all, if Mages upgrade to Archmages, why shouldn't Wizards upgrade to their own tier-4 unit? The Amurite adept could get it's own name too, like Apprentice or something.
Adept->Mage->Archmage becomes
Apprentice->Wizard->Warlock, and impecable style is the happy consequence.
Having a Cassawalan unique unit would be cool though.
Adept->Mage->Archmage becomes
Apprentice->Wizard->Warlock, and impecable style is the happy consequence.
Having a Cassawalan unique unit would be cool though.
okay here is my wacky-est idea so far ... hope someone likes it ...
remove culture defence bonus from the amurites and replace with (and yep this might get shot don due to coding difficulties) a mana sheild mechanic ... (and i hope this makes scence ... im tierd and its late)
every mana that the amurites own gives a 50-70% 'mana defence' which is then totalled and devided by the total amount of cites controled, to give a unifrom bonus to all amurite cities (capped at 100%)this would make the amurites very hard to early rush but would make there expansion very mana (and hense magic) focused ... you spread to much to gain other resources... you lose focus on the arcane and your empire weakens ... but if you keep after those mana nodes you stay nice and safe behind the controled walls of mana ...
examples (at 50% per mana)
4 cities 5 mana
total mana defence pool 250%
devided by 4 cities = 62%
so all 4 cities would have a 62% defence
now say you dump 2 more cities to get some iron and to block a stratigic area but with no mana about
250% devided by 6 cities = 41% defence
so by switching focus away from the arcane you have weakened all your cities by 21% defence .... time to start hunting mana!
id love to know what the team thought of this ... (yes im lonely and want a team hug!)
remove culture defence bonus from the amurites and replace with (and yep this might get shot don due to coding difficulties) a mana sheild mechanic ... (and i hope this makes scence ... im tierd and its late)
every mana that the amurites own gives a 50-70% 'mana defence' which is then totalled and devided by the total amount of cites controled, to give a unifrom bonus to all amurite cities (capped at 100%)this would make the amurites very hard to early rush but would make there expansion very mana (and hense magic) focused ... you spread to much to gain other resources... you lose focus on the arcane and your empire weakens ... but if you keep after those mana nodes you stay nice and safe behind the controled walls of mana ...
examples (at 50% per mana)
4 cities 5 mana
total mana defence pool 250%
devided by 4 cities = 62%
so all 4 cities would have a 62% defence
now say you dump 2 more cities to get some iron and to block a stratigic area but with no mana about
250% devided by 6 cities = 41% defence
so by switching focus away from the arcane you have weakened all your cities by 21% defence .... time to start hunting mana!
id love to know what the team thought of this ... (yes im lonely and want a team hug!)
This could be a bit of a problem in the late game, after the rites of Oghma have been completed, and the Amurite cities suddenly become indestructible fortresses. +100% is a lot of defensive strength for border cities and newly-conquered cities that would otherwise be relatively weak due to low culture.
I could see there being a level-3 spell that provides a powerful defensive bonus -- like Wall of Stone, but for Archmages or Summoners. There are still mana spheres without level 3 spells for all three magic types, so there's room for it. Obviously this would help every civilization (except the Khazad)... but it's a cool idea, and worth investigating.
Or maybe instead of it being a spell, it could be something that complements the Ring of Warding, but consumes mana to power it, not unlike how conventional resources are consumed by corporations in Vanilla-civ. There's definitely a lot of room to explore such ideas in FfH. It seems like the game doesn't emphasize magic nearly enough, in my opinion anyway. But I dig the whole spell system bigtime, so I'm probably biased.
As far as looking for ways to add more "flavour" to the Amurites, the focus ought to be on simpler things that don't add much in the way of power (even if exploited heavily) but influence play style.
Why not something as simple as adding a weak, cheaply-produced unit that acts as a "bodyguard" for arcane units, giving them more of a buffer against assassins? It could be overcome fairly easily by using, say, TWO assassins... but it would require more thought to be given to fighting the Amurites, and require the Amurites to consider issues like how many of these bodyguards to bring along, whether they should have archmages cast escape to get back to the capital once their bodyguards are gone. It makes sense that the Amurites might invest more effort in guarding their arcane units, since they are the true muscle of the Amurite military.
Roghar
Warlord
high cultural defence can never get too broken (especially capped at 100), it only takes some siege weapons to brnig it down quick smart, or some fireballs.
It also makes pillaging amurite mana quite effective as a precursor to hitting cities, double-whammy for them.
It also makes pillaging amurite mana quite effective as a precursor to hitting cities, double-whammy for them.
yeah didnt think about the rites ... how aout we make it so cites must have over 50% amurite influnce/population to work? (ie there has to be a certain level of base line channeling)
have already suggested something akin to this, obviously i agree that a bodyguard type unit would really fit ... great minds huh? -->
but i picture these guys a little different from you ... making them chaneller units ... hense the affinity and the defence bonus for the more mages you have in the stack ... i suggest capping at 3 so if the do get killed you stack of smug, safe mages becomes oh so killable again!
yeah this was the line i was thinking along ... imho this doesnt really make them more powerful, its just a different way of gaining your culture defence... something unique ... and plus thinking about it the whole border cities and newly conquered cities would only be that high if properlly planned for ... and i call double win ... if you have planned and acheved getting that much manner ... well thats a successful war and kudos to you oh mighty one!
doing it like that is not over powered even with rite of ogma :
exemple : my game: 18 mana (counting the free one (palace-wonders) and the ones not yet improved because of newly conquered) 23 cities.
if mana is 50% defense
- 40% defense per city : big for early cities.. equal to mid cities (500cultur) very low for developed cities that have usually 60% cultural defense.
if rite of ogma doubles my nodes I would have 12more : 30 xp = 60% in all cities !!
60% is big but rite come late.
only overpowered bonus : palace has 3 and maybe 4 : so when razing all amurite you would oppose the last city with maybe 150-200 % defense : that is a lot !!
malus :
-pillage is an easy way to lower overall defense in ALL cities !!
-big cities have reduced defense
-each new city captured reduce your old cities defense
-even if you capture new cities with a mana node close by : defense is reduced due to new city, you need times for : happiness returns, culture rise AND build the node before you equilibrate the defense again
how to compensate for the overpowered bonus :
-free mana get 20% defense, mana nodes gets 60% defense.
-magical defense appears with : strength of will or elementalism or the tech that give ward ring.. (building against magical attacks)
-capped at +100%
(1st option : in capital only : 80% defense if all is cities razed, 50% if 2 cities left and 5 free mana : 2 wonders, 3palace : a bit higher for capital solo but not unheard of in late game, a lot lower from mid game for your 2 last cities.
for my game : overall civ :
w/o ogma : 12 mana nodes , 6 free: 36.5%defense for all cities instead of 40 : very low defense for the civ.
w/ ogma : 67% defense : higher for new cities, higher for normal center cities : 60% is not hard : 3 rings is easy. but it comes almost late game.)
so IMO, this option (while not easy to code) is not overpowered in anyways, and may even be underpowered for most of the game. especially as pillage is quite easy, nodes are long to replace and it is easy to kill the mage that tries to upgrade the node.
exemple : my game: 18 mana (counting the free one (palace-wonders) and the ones not yet improved because of newly conquered) 23 cities.
if mana is 50% defense
- 40% defense per city : big for early cities.. equal to mid cities (500cultur) very low for developed cities that have usually 60% cultural defense.
if rite of ogma doubles my nodes I would have 12more : 30 xp = 60% in all cities !!
60% is big but rite come late.
only overpowered bonus : palace has 3 and maybe 4 : so when razing all amurite you would oppose the last city with maybe 150-200 % defense : that is a lot !!
malus :
-pillage is an easy way to lower overall defense in ALL cities !!
-big cities have reduced defense
-each new city captured reduce your old cities defense
-even if you capture new cities with a mana node close by : defense is reduced due to new city, you need times for : happiness returns, culture rise AND build the node before you equilibrate the defense again
how to compensate for the overpowered bonus :
-free mana get 20% defense, mana nodes gets 60% defense.
-magical defense appears with : strength of will or elementalism or the tech that give ward ring.. (building against magical attacks)
-capped at +100%
(1st option : in capital only : 80% defense if all is cities razed, 50% if 2 cities left and 5 free mana : 2 wonders, 3palace : a bit higher for capital solo but not unheard of in late game, a lot lower from mid game for your 2 last cities.
for my game : overall civ :
w/o ogma : 12 mana nodes , 6 free: 36.5%defense for all cities instead of 40 : very low defense for the civ.
w/ ogma : 67% defense : higher for new cities, higher for normal center cities : 60% is not hard : 3 rings is easy. but it comes almost late game.)
so IMO, this option (while not easy to code) is not overpowered in anyways, and may even be underpowered for most of the game. especially as pillage is quite easy, nodes are long to replace and it is easy to kill the mage that tries to upgrade the node.
TravellingHat
Warlord
Alright, another suggestion. Perhaps my earlier ideas were too strong, so how about this...
Familiar: The familiar can be built at a mage guild, using the hawk model, but perhaps at a higher production cost. Wizards, conjurors and their upgrades gain the ability to carry a familiar, just as hunters can carry hawks. Ideally a different model would be used (e.g. owl) but frankly that's just more work! Familiars and hawks should not be interchangeable: casters cannot carry hawks and hunters cannot carry familiars. Liches lose the ability to carry familiars.
Since the familiar would be weaker than the caster, it will get hit by marksman promoted units first, protecting its caster. The familiar would perform as a hawk (recon etc), but would also start with Channelling I and one random mana sphere available at the time it is built. If this happens to be something Govannon could have taught, well tough - you can't have everything. The familiar would be consider summoned, so may get fried if flying through a ring of warding.
Ideally, I'd see the familiar as being bound to a particular caster, so could not be traded between casters, rebased or left in a city, but this would prevent casters with familiars from boarding ships, so probably more hassle than it's worth.
Thoughts?
Familiar: The familiar can be built at a mage guild, using the hawk model, but perhaps at a higher production cost. Wizards, conjurors and their upgrades gain the ability to carry a familiar, just as hunters can carry hawks. Ideally a different model would be used (e.g. owl) but frankly that's just more work! Familiars and hawks should not be interchangeable: casters cannot carry hawks and hunters cannot carry familiars. Liches lose the ability to carry familiars.
Since the familiar would be weaker than the caster, it will get hit by marksman promoted units first, protecting its caster. The familiar would perform as a hawk (recon etc), but would also start with Channelling I and one random mana sphere available at the time it is built. If this happens to be something Govannon could have taught, well tough - you can't have everything. The familiar would be consider summoned, so may get fried if flying through a ring of warding.
Ideally, I'd see the familiar as being bound to a particular caster, so could not be traded between casters, rebased or left in a city, but this would prevent casters with familiars from boarding ships, so probably more hassle than it's worth.
Thoughts?
familiars!!!?!?!?!? why oh why didnt i think of this earlier! travelling hat ... sir i salute you for the idea of familiars!
having a read through i like all the base thoughts you have (ie a small magic boost and being able to send your familiar spying), but i would suggest a different implimentation. make familiar a promotion avalible with summoning and make it only avalible to amurites
the promotion is a double edged sword (hey the familiar has to get something out of it!) so taking this promotion weakens the caster (ala unholy taint) i would suggest a straight -1str but gives him access to the floating eye spell, which he can cast without using his normal spell slot. and also gives the caster a random 'arcane type' (spell extention, magic resit, or even straight combat (for empower)) psudo-promotion (ie if it gives spell extention 1 the caster would still have to buy spell extention 1 to get 2, but he would sitll have a free level in effect)
i wouldnt have it give a spell effect as this becomes increasingly redundent on any adept. i would make it a promotion to avoid the boat issue, and plus it ties it (binds it?) to a particular caster
hope this fits with the feel you were going for hat
having a read through i like all the base thoughts you have (ie a small magic boost and being able to send your familiar spying), but i would suggest a different implimentation. make familiar a promotion avalible with summoning and make it only avalible to amurites
the promotion is a double edged sword (hey the familiar has to get something out of it!) so taking this promotion weakens the caster (ala unholy taint) i would suggest a straight -1str but gives him access to the floating eye spell, which he can cast without using his normal spell slot. and also gives the caster a random 'arcane type' (spell extention, magic resit, or even straight combat (for empower)) psudo-promotion (ie if it gives spell extention 1 the caster would still have to buy spell extention 1 to get 2, but he would sitll have a free level in effect)
i wouldnt have it give a spell effect as this becomes increasingly redundent on any adept. i would make it a promotion to avoid the boat issue, and plus it ties it (binds it?) to a particular caster
hope this fits with the feel you were going for hat
TravellingHat
Warlord
I'm glad you like the principle. It just came to me in a flash light, possibly due to the fact they've just finished the road outside my office connecting me to a mind mana node.
My thinking on using the hawk as a starting point was that it would require building, hence some production investment. However, there's no reason it *has* to be done that way, and it does bring in the boat-boarding limitation.
Another way of doing it could be joining as with a Great Commander. A familiar could be a built unit which when in a stack gives eligible units (level 2+ casters) a "join" ability. Once joined the familiar is temporarily bound to that caster, with whatever effects its decided the familiar grants. This would also negate the boat-boarding limitation.
One thing with the hawk method though is it acts as a one-shot shield against assassination, which a promo or join doesn't.
My thinking on using the hawk as a starting point was that it would require building, hence some production investment. However, there's no reason it *has* to be done that way, and it does bring in the boat-boarding limitation.
Another way of doing it could be joining as with a Great Commander. A familiar could be a built unit which when in a stack gives eligible units (level 2+ casters) a "join" ability. Once joined the familiar is temporarily bound to that caster, with whatever effects its decided the familiar grants. This would also negate the boat-boarding limitation.
One thing with the hawk method though is it acts as a one-shot shield against assassination, which a promo or join doesn't.
This seems like a really good idea. It would probably make sense to ditch the free spellstaff that Wizards get, since this mechanism would take its place as what distinguishes the Amurite's arcanists from the rest.
Since FfH has a lot of its roots in DnD, it would make a lot of sense for familiars to extend the range of their master's spells; after all, one of the main uses of familiars in DnD was that they could deliver touch spells on their master's behalf. So once you've attached a familiar to a Wizard or Archmage (a la the Great Commander mechanism), they get +1 to their spell ranges; combined with spell extension 1 and 2, they would get a truly awesome +3 to the range of their spells.
It's not overpowered, it nicely replaces the free spellstaff, and it has a unique flavour that other civs can't duplicate.
Of course, there could be different kinds of familiars; like in DnD, a toad familiar made the wizard tougher, a fox familiar made the wizard have better reflexes, etc. But that would almost certainly be going overboard unless the mechanism was provided for ALL civs.
TravellingHat
Warlord
I was thinking about the familiars as creatures (as per your D&D reference), but using FfH units. Perhaps a caster with a familiar could cast the first summon of their familiar's random mana sphere, which represents the familiar manifesting. However, if this summon is killed, the familiar is destroyed and the caster takes collateral damage from having their symbiotic link violently broken.
Since I would not allow familiars for adepts, this shouldn't make the caster much more powerful, although in the hands of a wizard/archmage it is granting them a summoning ability. However, hopefully the cost (probable loss of familiar) and risk (collateral damage) should outweigh that increase in power. I would foresee this as used for finishing off a weakened enemy, where the risk are minimal, or as a sacrifice to save the caster, where the risk is justified.
However, it could be the case that the familiar's random mana sphere does not allow summoning (e.g.mind), which I'd accept as being tough luck, much like if the familiar had a Govannon-trainable ability.
EDIT: Perhaps to provide some melee protection against assassins etc, the caster could gain affinity to the familiar's mana sphere.
EDIT 2: Damn and blast, I wish I'd thought of this in time to enter into the design a unit contest.
Since I would not allow familiars for adepts, this shouldn't make the caster much more powerful, although in the hands of a wizard/archmage it is granting them a summoning ability. However, hopefully the cost (probable loss of familiar) and risk (collateral damage) should outweigh that increase in power. I would foresee this as used for finishing off a weakened enemy, where the risk are minimal, or as a sacrifice to save the caster, where the risk is justified.
However, it could be the case that the familiar's random mana sphere does not allow summoning (e.g.mind), which I'd accept as being tough luck, much like if the familiar had a Govannon-trainable ability.
EDIT: Perhaps to provide some melee protection against assassins etc, the caster could gain affinity to the familiar's mana sphere.
EDIT 2: Damn and blast, I wish I'd thought of this in time to enter into the design a unit contest.
xienwolf
Deity
Love the idea of the familiars. And on the up side, Amurite wasn't an option for the design contest anyway 
Giving summoning spells to wizards and archmages doesn't feel quite right to me. Summoning is the domain of the Sheaim and Balseraphs; the Amurites are about fireballs and lightning and whatnot. Not that I'd say no to the addition of such a thing... I'm just suggesting that it doesn't seem to fit the Amurite's theme.
Of course. In fact, if there's any one thing that makes the Amurites stand apart right now, it's the fact that they barely have to muddle around with Adepts at all. They can skate right into the Wizard and Summoner level once they've got their mana nodes prepped. Anything to do with adepts really doesn't apply to the Amurites. That's part of why I think it's so important that they get custom unit art for their higher-level arcane units. Little things like that go a long way.
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
My proposal is new arcane units, and the use of farmiliars.
Adepts would remain the same, as said above, because they have a short life span.
Wizards would get the spellstaff promo, a slot for 1 farmiliar.
Archwizards would replace archmages. You can have 4 archwizards at once (a large advantage over archmages), two farmilliar slots, to help even more with assasins. Finally, they would get 2 free promotions upon becoming an archwizard then normal archmages.
Finally, the archwizard with the highest xp could be turned into the Caswallan. Using the patriarch function, the archwizard could sacrifice 10 xp and revert to an archwizard to give all arcane units 1 xp.
Adepts would remain the same, as said above, because they have a short life span.
Wizards would get the spellstaff promo, a slot for 1 farmiliar.
Archwizards would replace archmages. You can have 4 archwizards at once (a large advantage over archmages), two farmilliar slots, to help even more with assasins. Finally, they would get 2 free promotions upon becoming an archwizard then normal archmages.
Finally, the archwizard with the highest xp could be turned into the Caswallan. Using the patriarch function, the archwizard could sacrifice 10 xp and revert to an archwizard to give all arcane units 1 xp.
TravellingHat
Warlord
OK, perhaps the summoning feature is drifting off target. To summarise then, familiars should:
Be associated with a single random mana sphere.
Improve spell range.
Improve visibility range (recon, sentry etc).
Improve spell-casting (new spells, increase damage, reduce resistance etc).
Provide protection of some sort (take a first hit, affinity, resistance etc).
Damage the caster when lost (how can they be lost?).
If possible not use the hawk mechanism, to avoid the boat-boarding issue.
The mechanics we can argue over, but does the above meet with general agreement? My comments in brackets are just suggestions.
Be associated with a single random mana sphere.
Improve spell range.
Improve visibility range (recon, sentry etc).
Improve spell-casting (new spells, increase damage, reduce resistance etc).
Provide protection of some sort (take a first hit, affinity, resistance etc).
Damage the caster when lost (how can they be lost?).
If possible not use the hawk mechanism, to avoid the boat-boarding issue.
The mechanics we can argue over, but does the above meet with general agreement? My comments in brackets are just suggestions.
genrally yes ... but not all at the same time! perhapes make a couple of familiar 'types' ? and i know im biased cause i suggested it ... but as a pomotion seems right to me .... it saves all the mess of mounting units but still can meet all the given requirements above.
on the point of beoing lost ... easy way round that we damage the castor on at the begining and make them twined, if one dies the other does (so if its a promotion it obviously goes with the castor) ... i do find myself being against it being a sperate unit... makes it feel like a fancy summon to me! (but hey if this gets into the game ... we might be able to twist sez's arm into making a mage model with a familiar sitting on its shoulder for any unit that gains the promo...)
hmmm on a side note i think im going to tie alot of these ideas into a amurite manifesto (or drewids wish list of amurite stuff!!!) and if we can get into a form that the main contributors to this thread llike ... well we can throw it at the team and see if anything sticks!
just remember guys were going for uniqueness not power ... if we suggest a ramp up somewhere, well its gotta be down somewhere else (not nessicerally the same thing)
TravellingHat
Warlord
I'm certainly not proposing ALL the stuff in brackets 
That would amount to an I WIN button.
That would amount to an I WIN button.
