An Army of One...no, Two

[Erebras]

Forgive me if I overlooked any posts on this thread's specific question (see below). It appears the workaround with movement-point-hardcoding limitations that screw up the AI's ability to fully load armies is to set the maximum number of units to 1 and give a hefty hit point bonus to compensate.

I have found that giving the Art of War the ability to make armies has allowed the AI to field armies in the Ancient era (I moved Sun Tzu to the first era). I mention this only to recognize that the AI does indeed build armies; some posts on other threads say otherwise.

But this is not the purpose of this thread.

I would like to know why the preferred workaround is a one-unit cap and hit point bonus. Why is a two-unit cap and hit point bonus not preferable or recommended? Were there attempts to do this that resulted in strange results?

 

[Pounder]

I have my game set to two-unit cap with hit point bonus.

The AI doesn't always manage to put to units into an army.

But I do see them on occasion.

Here is a pic where the Koreans have built at least two armies with two units each.

I am the Zulu in this game.

So it does happen.

 

[Pounder]

BTW, I use the Build Larger Armies Flag to enable loading the second unit, the second unit can't be loaded until the Civ builds the Pentagon in my game.

So there are a lot more units with higher movement later in the game after the Pentagon Wonder comes available, I found that helped the AI a bit. They can add to armies they built earlier in the game.

 

[Virote_Considon]

The problem is that the AI will only add units with the same current movement rate that the army has or higher.

So if they load in, say, a Swordsman with its 1 movement point (bringing the army's movement to 2), they won't add in any more units with 1 movement point, only Horsemen/Chariots with their 2 movement points.

This is a problem because the movement bonus is one of the bigger bonuses that the army confers, and since the army's movement is determined by adding 1 movement to the slowest loaded unit's movement costs (I think, or it might average them out and add 1), this fault of the AI basically completely negates that advantage.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Additional: to further highlight the above example...

An army with two Swordsmen (movement rate 1) will have a movement rate of 2 now. The strength of the army (adding and averaging each of the attk/def stats) is still 3 attk 2 def. This is a significant gain. (3/2/2 a/d/m instead of 3/2/1)

An army with two Horsemen (movement rate 2) will have a movement rate of 2 now. The strength of the army (adding and averaging each of the attk/def stats) is still 2 attk 1 def. This is a significant gain. (2/1/3 a/d/m instead of 2/1/2)

An army with a Swordsman (movement rate 1) and a Horseman (movement rate 2) will have a movement rate of 2. This is not significant because the Horseman is already at a speed of two. The strength of the unit would be something along the lines of 2.5 attack, 1.5 defense - a notable decrease from what the Swordsman normally has.

 

[Erebras]

[I know, Virote, that you meant to write "An army with two Horsemen (movement rate 2) will have a movement rate of 3 now." No need to clarify. We all get it.]

Thanks for confirming that 2-unit armies work okay, even in weird games involving Shaka Zulu saying "Gimme some sugar, baby" while directing armies of M1 Abrams tanks supported by Nazgul troopers (do they ride on the turrets dressed in black or fly overhead like wraiths on wings?).

I understand and appreciate that the A.I. doesn't utilize armies well, and it's hardly surprising that it won't stack a bunch of mobile units into it to take full advantage. But, for me, the main strength of armies has always been the collective hit points. Even, expanding on Virote's example, if a 3-unit army only had, say, two stone-age warriors (okay, have one riding in a chariot to be consistent) and the third unit was a knight or ancient cavalry, what makes the army so formidable is not the warrior and chariot's pitiful attack value, but rather, the fact that it can continue attacking or defending for a much longer period of time before it withdraws from the battle or perishes. Granted this is much more apparent when fortified on a hill or mountaintop and defending -- even attackers from more advanced tribes will pay a hefty price to dislodge such a beast, and I'm using an ancient era example.

Certainly it'd be nice if armies were used for full advantage, but I think the zone of control, extra movement point, healing in enemy territory, and RADAR are just additional perks to the main advantage I think armies have.

 

[ZergMazter]

I turned the pentagon basically into another 'Military academy', so that the AI has 2 places where they could build armies simultaneously, but I took away the xtra unit load bonus.

I also did as you increasing the bonus hit points, and the hit point bonus increases the more advanced the army is depending on the era as I'm about to discuss.

I'm still working on this set up for my armies:

1-They are auto produced every 30 turns from specific wonders.

2-Two army types available to solve the movement issue:
A: Army that only loads foot units (This is tested and works)
B: Army that only loads tactical missile unit (for mounted, and still testing)

3-Armies can be upgraded to the corresponding army of that era:
A: Upgrading from army to army works but keeps obsolete units in. (tested and it works)
B: Upgrading to a leader so that obsolete units could break off, then making a new army to be
filled with a new unit, or something along those lines. (planned, and need testing)

Also more modern foot armies in my game hav 2 movements and mobile army has 2. I still gotta test it and see if it goes up as I imagined (foot loaded=3, mobile loaded=4)

I tried giving an army bombard abilities, but oh boy that was the mistake of my life. I didnt know they can bombard endlessly.

Oh yea I'm also having issues having the AI upgrading all armies :/ Too many problems, just too many. Every time you think of something new, there is a limitation killing you.

I had made small wonder barracks that allowed the upgrade of armies, then realized you can only build one... I wonder if you could make a regular barracks upgrade armies without being a small wonder.

 

[Erebras]

ZergMazter, thanks for the additional info. I had compiled the work of others into a single place so I could try all the workarounds all at once in a single scenario, but it NEVER occurred to me that the bombard ability was messed up. Unfortunate, since it was how I was going to incorporate artillery usage into the mod. I was going to have an artillery piece and army flag in a single graphic, with the rationale that only an organized army would have and use howitzers and radar artillery.

The "How Armies Work" thread (whatever it is called) mentions that "2. Special Actions like Airdrop and Bombard work only if the army has them checked in the editor. This is confirmed for Airdrop, Airlift, Pillage, Bombard, Capture, and Stealth Attack (assassin army!). This applies also to Worker/Engineer Actions and Air Missions (see down below)." I failed to realize that having Bombard checked and actually giving armies Bombard attack values were not one and the same.

Also:

Spoiler :

To make it even more complicated: the Army itself may also Enslave, but only through Lethal Bombardment. If the Army has Bombard with Lethal Bombardment and Enslave checked, it will create its own unit type when your army kills off an enemy with bombardment.
The army’s ability to kill off enemies with Lethal Bombardment means that the army itself may gain Combat Experience, go Elite and ultimately create a Leader.
This Army bombardment could be better represented in the Army unit graphics. Like in other land units bombardment uses the Attack1 flic, and the epic Army units only shouts in this animation. Having Bombard Fx checked helps a little, but who will be the first to create an modern Army unit with mortars or light howitzers firing as Attack animation (representing Corps or Division artillery), or a fantasy Army unit with a Wizard casting spells on the evil enemy?

I was going to do something like that, but, ZergMazter, you are telling me the armies have unlimited bombard ability? Or that they get to fire a lot and decimate your forces before you ever get a chance to counterattack?

 

[ZergMazter]

Erebras I was trying to make an aerial army for the purpose of having very strong air units with a short range that specialized in destroying land units such as a A-10 Warthog would.

To get the AI to build it I had to make the Warthog stronger than all other air units. This means they would only build warthogs which was a bad idea, but the Army flag would help limit the amount of warthogs you could have.

After being successful in all this it was time for testing and I noticed my movement points were not consumed after I bombarded. I kept on bombarding and it was clear that it was unlimited, just like when you go pillaging with a ground army, and it will not consume movement points after pillaging.

It was a sad discovery, and it ruined my whole idea. I dont know if the AI would endlessly bombard you and get stuck at some point in an endless loop such as when they try bombarding workers for no reason when there is nothing to destroy. That would go on eternally untill you crash the game itself.

This however was aerial bombardment, maybe ground bombardment wont work the same. Im off to test it right now!!! I will post my results.

UPDATE:

Correction it works!!! An army with bombarment consumes mov points after firing if its a ground bombardment. I still dont see how the AI would use this since it will hide inside a city unless somehow it gets loaded with a unit and somehow it moves out to combat and acts weird.

 

[Erebras]

Thanks for checking on that, ZM. I don't necessarily mind if an enemy army camps out in a city, although it has been shown that it probably won't. As for the artillery bombard, it will help human players more, certainly, but at least the army will get a defensive bombard using the Attack1 animation of the army's INI file, which is currently not used. It is rather odd, since naval units owned by the AI never hesitate to bombard coastlines (I don't recall them bombarding other ships, though).

 

[r16]

ı think if they are attack values are low , they do . There's a WW1 scenario where submarines are of 1 attack and 1 defence but 8 bombardment value and they can hurt other ships pretty bad . Otherwise a subscription post of sorts for a wannabe scenario maker .

 

[Erebras]

Oh, so if a bombardment value is higher than an attack value, the A.I. will use it to bombard ships. But the A.I. still refuses to use land artillery (except those annoying flak cannon units which really don't count as artillery).

 

[ZergMazter]

Ahhhhh that explains why in my current game last night I saw the AI using ships to bombard my navies. I was confused.

In my modded game my ship's stats goes like this for example 52/35/5 Bombard 80.

The problem with the 1/1 bombard 8 example though is that I dont know how to trick the AI into building those ships since to them they are basically crap. It would be awesome to have a 1/1 100 bombard RoF 4 submarine in my games, but the AI wont build them :/

 

[r16]

oh , the AI does nothing but submarines as soon as they are available , possibly because they have the same amount of bombardment with the battleships . Cheaper , hence AI can have many more ships to fire on my hapless infantry who keep the coastal towns , or to launch torpedos on my mines up the mountains ...

 

[Erebras]

Yeah, um, nothing worse than packs of sea wolves launching torpedoes onto city streets or down mineshafts.

Wait.

What?!

 

[r16]

always ready for new units , no matter how much off the charts of logic !

and of course when this re-coding happens or something , there should be more attack flic options with subs firing torpedos at ships and firing deck guns on the shore .

 

[ZergMazter]

What re-coding?

 

[r16]

oh and uh , you know there is this grass roots movement to re-write at least parts of the game . And obviously it's not that fast a thing but am hopeful like for 2040s .