An atheist's choice

[PoorOldSpike]

An atheist state would need to invest more cash in stress counselling and mental health care because they have no religion to fall back on. As Brit adventurer and hardman Bear Grylls said- "My Christian faith is my backbone"
And check this psychiatric study-
"People who are religious on a personal level rather than adopting an organised religion, who perceive reasons for things and their role within a wider universe, appear less likely to suffer mental ill health," she said.
"They seem to be calmer and have a sense of order and a personal perspective which makes them feel more in control instead of passing responsibility to someone or something else."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/516350.stm

 

[Atomike]

Moral conceptions are simply myths. The average person does what is right and cares about avoiding harm towards other people. The statement that morality comes from religion only is offensive to me as a human being, and should be to any other human being.

On the idea of religion and morality:
Point #1
Religion gives people consequence to their actions (at least when people act in accordance with their Religion). Even when no one is looking, there is an accountability outside oneself. Although, religious people can still do wrong, they still are given an accountability that the atheist yearns for, but can never have.

Point #2: True morality can never be successful when it comes from yourself. You all know that self-deception is too pervasive in humanity - it's just way to easy to convince yourself that you're not doing anything wrong. Also, you simply cannot as a limited human being know or understand all the consequences of your actions. You may think there's nothing wrong with pornography. But then again, most folks don't realize the kind of slavery and drug-addiction that those poor girls live in. Your actions in buying porno are literally killing young girls, but most people are okay with it unfortunately. Without religion, it's too easy to "not know". You cannot be your own measuring stick. Religion is really the only way to get that objective standard all people yearn for. On a personal note, I know I know that I would not be a good person at all without the Catholic Church. It has given me so much.

 

[Dryhad]

On the idea of religion and morality:
Point #1
Religion gives people consequence to their actions (at least when people act in accordance with their Religion). Even when no one is looking, there is an accountability outside oneself. Although, religious people can still do wrong, they still are given an accountability that the atheist yearns for, but can never have.

Yearns for? Give me a break. If you're not even going to try, don't bother. There is absolutely no evidence that atheists are any less moral than theists. Indeed, what with you lot needing an omnipresent policeman looking over your shoulder to make you be moral, the case could be made that atheists are more moral than theists.

Point #2: True morality can never be successful when it comes from yourself. You all know that self-deception is too pervasive in humanity - it's just way to easy to convince yourself that you're not doing anything wrong.

Hey, you know who was convinced they weren't doing anything wrong? Crusaders. The Spanish Inquisition. Jihadists. Shall I continue? People can convince themselves that what they're doing is right whether they're atheists or not. The difference is when theists do it they convince themselves that what they're doing is in God's name. And they also tend to convince other people, while secular justifications of atrocities are less successful.

Also, you simply cannot as a limited human being know or understand all the consequences of your actions. You may think there's nothing wrong with pornography. But then again, most folks don't realize the kind of slavery and drug-addiction that those poor girls live in. Your actions in buying porno are literally killing young girls, but most people are okay with it unfortunately. Without religion, it's too easy to "not know". You cannot be your own measuring stick. Religion is really the only way to get that objective standard all people yearn for.

Bull. Religion is no more objective than any other code of morals (even if there is a divinely inspired and undiluted religion, there's far too many to know for certain which it is).

On a personal note, I know I know that I would not be a good person at all without the Catholic Church. It has given me so much.

You're such a horrible person that you only do good things out of threats of eternal torture?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

For the LAST BLOODY TIME, let's discuss this topic IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME!!!

Sorry for shouting, but I really wish people would stay on topic. Otherwise this forum will degenerate in quality towards your typical gaming forums.

What I'm saying is this:
- Civ4 is a simulation of our historical world
- historically, almost everyone had some religious ideas, even if they are not included in the 7 categories that the game incorporated
- the non-religious are hopelessly out-numbered by the religious and partially religious

What I'm suggesting is that free religion would provide a larger science boast, but remove the hapiness bonuses from religions, or even introduce unhapiness. My suggestion was +25% beakers and remove all hapiness and cultural bonuses. Please disagree if you feel you have a better idea, or if you have reasons as to why you think my idea s**ks.

I don't care what the religious or the non-religious think: the historical reality is, when you are in religion A in a nation that has religion A as the official religion, and then suddenly your government declares free religion or even a religion-ban, people get very upset. I don't care whether you think that's rational or not, that's the historical fact, and it will continue into the future as long as humans are still humans. Civ4 should act as a simulator of our history in this regard.

 

[PoorOldSpike]

snip:... On a personal note, I know I know that I would not be a good person at all without the Catholic Church. It has given me so much.

Yes that's what atheists don't realise, Christianity WORKS..
It empowers us, gives us confidence, self-assurance, fearlessness and a feelgood factor just like it says on the box-
"For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of selfdiscipline" (2 Tim 1:7)
".. our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power.." (1 Thess 1:5)

And that power is available as an automatic free download by simply logging our mindset onto Jesus..

 

[PoorOldSpike]

snip:...Hey, you know who was convinced they weren't doing anything wrong? Crusaders. The Spanish Inquisition. Jihadists....

Relax, Jesus is onto the phonies, there's a whole truckload of bible verses trashing them, here's just one..
Jesus said- "Not all who call me "Lord,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[Dryhad]

For the LAST BLOODY TIME, let's discuss this topic IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME!!!

We can't do that until people set down their prejudices and bias. How can we talk about including atheism in the game if there are people who so drastically misunderstand what atheism is?

What I'm saying is this:
- Civ4 is a simulation of our historical world
- historically, almost everyone had some religious ideas, even if they are not included in the 7 categories that the game incorporated
- the non-religious are hopelessly out-numbered by the religious and partially religious

What I'm suggesting is that free religion would provide a larger science boast, but remove the hapiness bonuses from religions, or even introduce unhapiness. My suggestion was +25% beakers and remove all hapiness and cultural bonuses. Please disagree if you feel you have a better idea, or if you have reasons as to why you think my idea s**ks.

I don't care what the religious or the non-religious think: the historical reality is, when you are in religion A in a nation that has religion A as the official religion, and then suddenly your government declares free religion or even a religion-ban, people get very upset. I don't care whether you think that's rational or not, that's the historical fact, and it will continue into the future as long as humans are still humans. Civ4 should act as a simulator of our history in this regard.

Truth.

Relax, Jesus is onto the phonies, there's a whole truckload of bible verses trashing them, here's just one..
Jesus said- "Not all who call me "Lord,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)

Are you for real? Do you honestly not understand how this post and the one you made immediately before are in complete contradiction? It doesn't matter one jot whether or not Jesus is onto the phonies, if Christianity "worked" as you and Atomike seem to think it does they wouldn't exist in the first place! Do you get it? I am talking about the realm of mortals!

 

[PoorOldSpike]

..Are you for real? Do you honestly not understand how this post and the one you made immediately before are in complete contradiction? It doesn't matter one jot whether or not Jesus is onto the phonies, if Christianity "worked" as you and Atomike seem to think it does they wouldn't exist in the first place! Do you get it? I am talking about the realm of mortals!

Sorry, you've lost me mate. All I know for sure from life experience is that true christians (as opposed to phoney 'christians') are cool, calm, unflappable decent people who give off good vibes..

Gen Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson - "My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me.That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave"

 

[PoorOldSpike]

..How can we talk about including atheism in the game if there are people who so drastically misunderstand what atheism is?

Atheism means not believing in gods doesn't it?
On the face of it, that seems logical because our 5 senses can't detect any gods.
But the fly in the ointment of that stance is a young country-boy carpenter who said there is a God, so it's our call whether we believe him or not.
His credentials were pretty good..

 

[EweezE]

As a christian who has never been baptised, aka The Elusive Christian, here's my two cents on the matter. Free religion encompasses atheism in the game. Just pretend that the religion symbols on your cities are not there. That might be too hard thugh for a non-imaginitive atheist.

 

[PoorOldSpike]

Ha ha ha, I've never been baptised either because Jesus saves, not water..
I don't go to church either even though Jesus is my main man, and anyway he said its okay to stay home..

HEY! There are many religions and their icons in Civ4, and as a Christian I can't say I enjoy seeing the others but I put up with it and I'm sure atheist players can put up with it too..
Heck, sometimes I even hear weird holy chanting in the game as messages come up like- "Buddhism/Hinduism etc has been started in another land", ha ha ha..

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Atheists do have a choice in this game, actually. Confucianism is athiest, Taoism and Buddhism is purely atheist in theory, but with healthy doses of polytheist and pantheist beliefs mixed-in in practice.

What I am talking about is the difference between free religion with a secular law as the only limit, and state-enforced atheism. The former is how most developed Western powers are run, and it's what the free religion civic in Civ 4 does. It's powerful, and it works in our real world too. State-enforced atheism is just as cruel as a theocratic religious state, its barbaric and it doesn't work. So no, NO state-enforced atheism in the game. No way.

I'm non-religious, and I feel that to claim that "atheism" and "theism" are two opposite ends is unfair, because it frames the discussion far too favourably towards the Judeo-Christian tradition. There are many worldviews that are religious, some with gods and some without, and many non-religious worldviews too.

 

[frekk]

An atheist state would need to invest more cash in stress counselling and mental health care because they have no religion to fall back on. As Brit adventurer and hardman Bear Grylls said- "My Christian faith is my backbone"
And check this psychiatric study-
"People who are religious on a personal level rather than adopting an organised religion, who perceive reasons for things and their role within a wider universe, appear less likely to suffer mental ill health," she said.
"They seem to be calmer and have a sense of order and a personal perspective which makes them feel more in control instead of passing responsibility to someone or something else."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/516350.stm

And on the other hand, patients at mental hospitals, especially those suffering psychoses, have a much higher incidence of religiousness than the general population ... and very, very often their illness manifests with religious elements. In fact, religion had to be specifically excluded from definitions of psychosis in the DSM-IV because there is no clinical way to technically distinguish one from the other; both rest on what's called "magical thinking" and involve things like hearing voices or believing oneself to be in communication with an unseen entity.

There are studies going either way on this one. Compared to the atheist population, the religious population has a higher incidence of criminal conviction, domestic violence, poverty, lower education, shorter lifespan, and higher incidence of disease.

 

[PoorOldSpike]

..And on the other hand, patients at mental hospitals, especially those suffering psychoses, have a much higher incidence of religiousness than the general population..

Hmm I haven't seen the figures but I'd certainly agree some of the biggest wackos around think they're holier than the rest of us poor slobs..
Again, we can relax because they can't get past Jesus..
Jesus said - "Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it,but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."(Matt 7:13)

 

[frekk]

Atheism, etymologically, means NO religion; however, in today's culture, Atheism means no belief in god(s).

There hasn't been any such change. Atheism has always meant "no god".

In early Ancient Greek, the adjective atheos (ἄθεος, from the privative ἀ- + θεός "god") meant "godless". The word began to indicate more-intentional, active godlessness in the 5th century BCE, acquiring definitions of "severing relations with the gods" or "denying the gods, ungodly" instead of the earlier meaning of ἀσεβής (asebēs) or "impious". Modern translations of classical texts sometimes render atheos as "atheistic". As an abstract noun, there was also ἀθεότης (atheotēs), "atheism". Cicero transliterated the Greek word into the Latin atheos. The term found frequent use in the debate between early Christians and Hellenists, with each side attributing it, in the pejorative sense, to the other.[11]

In English, the term atheism was derived from the French athéisme in about 1587.[13] The term atheist (from Fr. athée), in the sense of "one who denies or disbelieves the existence of God",[14] predates atheism in English, being first attested in about 1571.[15] Atheist as a label of practical godlessness was used at least as early as 1577.[16] Related words emerged later: deist in 1621,[17] theist in 1662;[18] theism in 1678;[19] and deism in 1682.[20] Deism and theism changed meanings slightly around 1700, due to the influence of atheism; deism was originally used as a synonym for today's theism, but came to denote a separate philosophical doctrine.[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist

The word isn't an English construct, and "theos" does not mean "religion" in the original Greek form of the word, it means god or gods. "Theism" is a derivative of atheism, rather than the other way around!

 

[Ammar]

Sorry, you've lost me mate. All I know for sure from life experience is that true christians (as opposed to phoney 'christians') are cool, calm, unflappable decent people who give off good vibes..

Nice to see the good old "no true scotsman" fallacy in action.

 

[PoorOldSpike]

Nice to see the good old "no true scotsman" fallacy in action.

Ah the Scots, a fine hospitable race..
An englishman buys a cottage in the remote Scottish Highlands and the first evening there's a knock at the door, he opens it and there's a big hairy Jock standing there in kilt, tam-o'shanter, sporran, bagpies under the arm, the lot..
"Och aye laddie" he says to the englishman "I'd like tae invite ye tae a party tonight at my farmhoose doon the glen, there'll be lots of singing, dancing, drinking and wild wild sex!"
"I say, thanks very much old chap" replies the englishman with a beaming smile, "and how many people'll be there?"
"Och laddie" answers the Scotsman, "just the two of us"

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Ah the Scots, a fine hospitable race..
An englishman buys a cottage in the remote Scottish Highlands and the first evening there's a knock at the door, he opens it and there's a big hairy Jock standing there in kilt, tam-o'shanter, sporran, bagpies under the arm, the lot..
"Och aye laddie" he says to the englishman "I'd like tae invite ye tae a party tonight at my farmhoose doon the glen, there'll be lots of singing, dancing, drinking and wild wild sex!"
"I say, thanks very much old chap" replies the englishman with a beaming smile, "and how many people'll be there?"
"Och laddie" answers the Scotsman, "just the two of us"

Why must you English and Scots make fun of each other?

 

[PoorOldSpike]

Why must you English and Scots make fun of each other?

Yes we shouldn't really, after all the Scotch indirectly pay the English a big compliment simply by coming to live here because it must mean they think the English and England are terrific..
No kidding there isn't a street corner in England that doesn't have a drunken jock puking his guts up after pub throwing out time gone midnight..
I suppose we can't blame them for fleeing their bleak windswept country where the cold north wind up their kilts can't be very pleasant..
Emperor Hadrian had the right idea building that wall along the border to keep 'em out..

 

[warpus]

Point #2: True morality can never be successful when it comes from yourself.

Hey, just because you have a weak will, doesn't mean the rest of us do too.