An idea for better magic

[ICanHasName?]

Ranged attacks would be a nice basic function for arcane units. Its annoying to have to go out of your way to make sure you adepts have combat mana and its tedious to have to keep an eye out for almost dead enemies to feed them.

I remember when I was first learning FFH having to go through the civopedia looking for what different manatypes did (and just always getting fire to be on the safe side).

 

[Neikius]

You have convinced me that you can do it.

At last someone who can make one of the most irritating aspects of FF* line of mods fun! I will be on the lookout. I am impressed to a point I'd volunteer if I were sure I had enough time to help, hehe. Good luck, hope it turns out nice.

And I will be on the lookout with new suggestions when issues arise (guess that is expected on the forums heh?).

 

[civ_king]

Can we have exponential growth for the Arcanes? so each promotion gives the standard 0.30 so it starts off slow and gets more and more powerful (they don't really grow faster, but instead more linear)

 

[Mylon]

Recommended ways of addressing the problems with arcane units: Make archmages directly buildable. Adepts require the mage school, mages require a mage college, and archmages require a mage university. This makes them operate just like any other unit out in the field.

 

[far_wanderer]

I love the Blaster promos. I think the main mod should incorporate the notion of a "ranged attack mage" for every plain adept/mage/archmage. This would solve the xp stagnation issue for the magi.

Ranged attacks would be a nice basic function for arcane units. Its annoying to have to go out of your way to make sure you adepts have combat mana and its tedious to have to keep an eye out for almost dead enemies to feed them.
I remember when I was first learning FFH having to go through the civopedia looking for what different manatypes did (and just always getting fire to be on the safe side).

That's a big part of the idea behind the Blaster and Battlemage promotions - make it easier to train arcane units. Theoretically, their magic should make them awesome at combat, but the current implementation doesn't make them good at any forms of combat that provide XP.

You have convinced me that you can do it.

At last someone who can make one of the most irritating aspects of FF* line of mods fun! I will be on the lookout. I am impressed to a point I'd volunteer if I were sure I had enough time to help, hehe. Good luck, hope it turns out nice.

And I will be on the lookout with new suggestions when issues arise (guess that is expected on the forums heh?).

I'm glad you're convinced, because I'm not right now. The DLL is proving easier than expected to figure out, but I can't actually compile a Fall Further DLL right now, so until I can do that all of my newfound knowledge doesn't do anything. There will be some new ideas I'll need help figuring out later tonight, though.

Can we have exponential growth for the Arcanes? so each promotion gives the standard 0.30 so it starts off slow and gets more and more powerful (they don't really grow faster, but instead more linear)

I'm actually thinking of a different path - removing passive XP gain entirely (maybe make the Mage Guild give some training, but that would be it) and instead creating a "Research" spell with a hefty time and gold cost to it that gives some free XP.

Recommended ways of addressing the problems with arcane units: Make archmages directly buildable. Adepts require the mage school, mages require a mage college, and archmages require a mage university. This makes them operate just like any other unit out in the field.

I have no idea what problems you're talking about, but I do like your idea as far as Mages are concerned. I'd keep Archmages the way they are, though, we already have a strong precedent for that type of elite unit with Immortals, Marksmen, and High Priests.


Progress Report: as I mentioned in my response to Neikius, I am experiencing technical difficulties and cannot actually compile a Fall Further DLL, which kind of stops everything. Until I either solve this problem or someone else is willing to do the few coding changes I need, there isn't a whole lot to be done. Once I get it working, I'll probably have a working mod ready to try out within about five days. Regardless, tonight when I have a bit more time I'll put up some more ideas I need help working on.

 

[Valkrionn]

If you attach your changed files I'd be more than happy to compile it for you. Mostly because I'm looking forward to playing with this.

 

[far_wanderer]

If you attach your changed files I'd be more than happy to compile it for you. Mostly because I'm looking forward to playing with this.

The problem is that without being able to compile the DLL to start with, I have no way to learn through trial and error. So while I will definitely take you up on your generous offer, I can only produce what I think should be the correct changes. I'll work on that tonight.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'll make sure to let you know if the compile fails... Not sure if I'll be able to fix the errors or not. All I've done with the dll so far is add a few game options.

I'll be gone most of the day tomorrow though, so hopefully I'll be able to get to it tonight.

 

[far_wanderer]

I'll make sure to let you know if the compile fails... Not sure if I'll be able to fix the errors or not. All I've done with the dll so far is add a few game options.

I'll be gone most of the day tomorrow though, so hopefully I'll be able to get to it tonight.

It definitely won't be tonight. My prior optimism has proven unfounded - I just spent five hours trying to set up the PromotionPrereqOr field and still only have it about halfway figured out. Without the ability to do trial and error, I can't figure out what things do well enough to actually make progress. Tracking down example code and figuring out what it actually does has proven to be exponentially more difficult than I expected.

 

[Valkrionn]

Mostly why I've avoided the DLL.... With Python, there's usually an existing function you can scavenge. Good luck, hope you get it working.

 

[far_wanderer]

So, while I'm having trouble working with the DLL, it's time to take a break and go back to XML. I'm looking for things other than arcane units that use spell sphere promotions, so I make sure I change all of them correctly. Here's what I have so far, let me know if I missed anything.

Units with unchanged functionality (the mod will not change how they function in any way, they will simply have different promotions that allow them to cast the same spells as they do currently)

• Arthendain – Banishment
• Bambur – Enchant Blade, Repair
• Donal Lugh – Hope
• Egrass – Spring, Scorch
• Loki – Dance of Blades, Inspire
• Meshabber of Dis – Fireball
• Mithril Golem – Summon Earth Elemental
• Arcane Barge – Fair Winds, Maelstrom, Fireball, Arcane Eye, Repair
• Bedouin – Scorch
• Chanter – Escape
• Devout – Sanctify
• Gnoslings – Arcane Eye, Dispel Magic
• Lizardman Shaper – Scorch, Spring
• Priest of Omorr – Dispel Magic, Spirit Guide, Arcane Eye
• Professor – Inspire, Hope
• Psion – Inspire, Charm Person, Dominate
• Radiant Guard – Blinding Light
• Ratha – Blinding Light
• Royal Guard – Hope
• Spirit Healer – Courage, Hope
• Succubus – Charm Person

Units with tweaked functionality (the mod will change how they behave a little bit)

• Mouth of the Divine – Courage, Hope, Trust (I consider Trust a minor addition, all having it from the start means is you will save a single promotion on one unit.)
• Vampire, Bruhah, Losha Valas – No spellcasting ability, start with March, Vampire promotion gives +1 movement (pretty much the same as they were before, but now spells are not involved)
• Vampire Lord – Same as above, can cast Charm Person
• Death Knight – Summon Spectre
• Corlindale – Scholar 2
• Kahd – Scholar 3

Non-arcane casters – Disciples will gain spell slots automatically just like arcane units, but they will not gain the promotions that represent what mana you have access to (those promotions are back in again, by the way, I remembered that this idea was why I came up with them). Instead, they will have a promotion that provides access to certain spells directly, regardless of what mana you have available. For the units below that are not Disciples, their special promotion will manually provide a few spell slots. Except for Mokka and the removal of Lich from Redactors, this list should be what they can cast now, so tell me if I got something wrong.

• Priest of Agruonn – Haste, Regeneration, Blur, Shadowwalk
• Shadow Priest of Agruonn – Haste, Regeneration, Blur, Shadowwalk
• Haruspex – Treetop Defense, Poison Blade, Vitalize
• Dwarven Druid – Wall of Stone, Stoneskin, Summon Earth Elemental
• Druid – Treetop Defense, Poison Blade, Vitalize
• Miquiztli – Haste, Regeneration, Blur, Shadowwalk
• Chalid – Loyalty, Host of the Einherjar, Valor, Scorch, Blinding Light, Summon Aurealis
• Mardero – Rust, Pit Beast, Wither
• Sphener – Loyalty, Host of the Einherjar, Valor
• Redactor – Raise Skeleton, Summon Spectre, Summon Wraith (*Lich not available)
• Yvain – Sanctify, Banishment, Resurrection, Treetop Defense, Poison Blade, Vitalize
• Seraph – Smoke, Fireball, Summon Fire Elemental.
• Woodfather – Treetop Defense, Poison Blade, Vitalize
• Priest of Winter – Slow, Summon Ice Elemental, Summon Frostling, Stasis Curse
• High Priest of Winter – Slow, Summon Ice Elemental, Frozen Lands, Snowfall, Summon Frostling, Stasis Curse
• Titan – Fair Winds, Maelstrom, Summon Air Elemental, Scorch, Blinding Light, Summon Aurealis, Courage, Hope, Trust.
• Mokka – Slow, Stasis Curse, Summon Ice Elemental, Raise Skeleton (Mokka will also start with these spells automatically)

Other things that use spell spheres

• Blasting Workshop - will simply provide a different promotion, unchanged functionality.
• The dungeon result that provides a mana node (Still need to figure out how to change this, although I expect it will be fairly simple) - will need to provide different promotions, unchanged functionality.
• Govannon - changed considerably, as detailed previously.
• Repair – Requires 1 Enchantment mana AND Dwarven

EDIT - Also Thades and Mobius Witches. I'm not sure how to handle them yet.

 

[xienwolf]

Yeah, sorry it sucks right now for trying to compile. I would wrap up what I have available again and try to figure out a package that works for you, but my current code is very buggy as I am in the middle of plans for the next big release Probably not till the weekend after this one that we have it out, if then.

 

[Valkrionn]

One minor thing..... Assuming Vehem didn't change it, the Bedouin scorch is actually a separate spell, as it has a delay on it.

Going to upload my version of the dll, on the off chance that it will compile for you. If it does, the only things I've changed are 3 lines each in CvEnums and CvEnumsInterface.... Just search for the 'WildMana' line, and delete it and the two below it.

Had to 7zip it to get it to fit.

 

[far_wanderer]

An idea just came to me of a possible way to avoid the DLL entirely. A while ago Xienwolf mentioned cargo as an example of something similar to spell slots, and that's got me thinking: why not just use cargo? The ability to limit it to carrying a specific class of unit already exists, I could just limit it to a non-existent class. The pro is really obvious (the mod would exist entirely within XML, which I think also means it could be a module), but there are several cons:

1. Any spell available through other means than the spell promotion would have to be duplicated (due to lack of other DLL work)
2. Spells would be unable to require more than one of each type of mana (again, due to lack of other DLL work)
3. Units with a cargo capacity would be unable to use spells (I'd already planned to make birds a spell anyway, so it's not a huge issue now, but it limits future potential - no spellcasting transport ships)
4. There is more potential for unforeseen conflicts (does anyone foresee any already?)
5. In general, the mod would be significantly more limiting to future development.
6. It will take me about twice as long to code (XML only, that's not figuring in the potentially unlimited amount of time it could take me to learn the DLL)

So, thoughts? Opinions? Advice? Huge glaring problems I overlooked? I'd still like to eventually get the DLL worked out, so this a more an idea for a temporary fix to allow playtesting than a permanent solution, but temporary things have a way of sticking around.

Yeah, sorry it sucks right now for trying to compile. I would wrap up what I have available again and try to figure out a package that works for you, but my current code is very buggy as I am in the middle of plans for the next big release Probably not till the weekend after this one that we have it out, if then.

I appreciate your effort anyway. In reality, while my inability to compile is a huge future roadblock, it's my inability to comprehend the DLL that's the problem right now. The ability to do trial and error would help a bit, but probably not enough.

One minor thing..... Assuming Vehem didn't change it, the Bedouin scorch is actually a separate spell, as it has a delay on it.

Going to upload my version of the dll, on the off chance that it will compile for you. If it does, the only things I've changed are 3 lines each in CvEnums and CvEnumsInterface.... Just search for the 'WildMana' line, and delete it and the two below it.

Had to 7zip it to get it to fit.

I think Vehem changed it, because I don't remember a delay. I will look into it though.

Thank you VERY much for your DLL. I'm out of patience for tonight, but I will try it first thing tomorrow evening. EDIT: And it works! Thank you again, hopefully with the ability to test things, I'll be able to figure out DLL work after all, and I won't have to go with my cobbled-together plan B