Analysis of utility of UUs as offensive units

[zafyro]

not being able to hold so many cities as an reason to claim that early units are not so powerfull is not valid to me.

Organized trait plus a correct use of religion and finances and wood choped courthouses makes conquering the world with praetorians something easy plus having to low your science to 20% but winning a domination game is also a win. 20% science of 4 times the number of cities is 70-80 %

Name not the possibility of having all the conquered cities with one or two merchants [reduces the conquered city growth but compensates the economic loss] with caste system. Having this kind of conquered cities can become even at a proffit.

I'd also say that in multiplayer most valuable Special Units are the earlier ones (x-rush)

 

[Oggums]

I agree with the premise, but disagree with some of your conclusions.

For example, with respect to the "post-infrastructure" theory, Samurai come at the perfect time for war in most of my games. They are post-library/markets, but pre-university/bank era. The perfect time to afford conquering more territory. Get more land, with more health/happiness resources, then make peace and grow your cities while building some banks and universities.

I happen to have a fondness for the Samurai, and I consider them a superior UU. With the first strikes, you can build a stack of Samurai and almost never need to replace them. Although I can accomplish the exact same thing with Macemen, I have to constantly build replacements. I need less "suicide" units with Samurai, and you almost never lose your heavy hitters. I typically wind up with a small stack of 50 exp Samurai, with a commando and some high-combat raiders, but I never have that many super-macemen. Once you have your Samurai stack, you really just need to build defenders and catapults.

 

[Gherald]

conquistadors are underrated. +50% against meelee, their natural counter (pikemen) ! So their only real counter are Saladins camels.

War elephants have already been pointed out, but I want to correct your suggestion that Saladin's camels are a counter.

They are not. They are pretty much equal to conquistadors (and for that matter, knights) except:

- Camels do not require iron or horses (but strangely do require horseback riding)
- Camels can withdraw from combat like cavalry.
- Conquistadors get defensive bonuses from cities, forests, hills, etc.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

First of all, this is not an argument since Conquistadores also need not one, but two resources to be created.

Yeah, but how often do you get iron and horses and how often do you get ivory ?
The strategic ressources are pretty common, but luxury ressources are limited to smaller areas so there is often one civ to monopolize them. I seem to get iron and horses in about 75% of my games but ivory in less than a third, and the AI values ivory more than an ordinary luxury ressource and is reluctant to trade it.
Anyway, i didn't say Conquistadores are overpowered but they are effective when it comes to pillaging and I they are far too useful to label them suboptimal.

 

[jimbob27]

I find most of the UU's to be useful. I agree strongly with the razing thing you said. A lot of my early wars don't involve me capturing cities. If I want to war but don't want to overexpand, I'll attack my neighbour with the best land. Preferably somewhere blocked from other civs with my borders. I'll raze his cities, and then slowly expand over his already improved land at a steady rate. I've done this quite a few times, with several of the early UUs. Preatorians are the masters of this tactic, but it works well with jaguars, quechuas, immortals, war chariots and keshiks. You might get more barbs doing this, but thats just more experience, and theres the added advantage of not having close borders till later in the game.

 

[Wodan]

Various responses....

-- most people get Education / Liberalism / Economics first, and then go for Gunpowder. In effect, those people are choosing to get Musketeers/Musketmen late. On top of that, Chemistry is probably one of the next picks... Well, yeah, in those cases the Musket troops are "short lived". How about get Gunpowder first. Then, go for the Education tree. You might find yourself exploring a strat you weren't aware of....

-- Difficulty level is irrelevant. I assume that players will play up to their skill. On any difficulty level, your skill will determine how optimal your economics are. If you overconquer and thus cause your economy to crash, the results will thus be similar, despite difficulty level.

-- Yes, I have Immortal rushed, Quecha rushed, Praet rushed. I've explored Samurai strats quite a bit. This has nothing to do with how good those units are and whether or not they are useful. Of course they are useful. In fact, my exact point is that they can be too useful.

Wodan

 

[The-Hawk]

I'm not saying you can't win the game on a high skill level, just that it is never going to be as optimum as having a good UU come into play after your infrastructure is built. Cossack etc will provide a more optimum game than Praets etc. Yes, you have a smaller territory with your core infrastructure, but you get your core infrastructure built earlier, and you get techs such as Military Tradition earlier, and you then can more than double your empire and have a successful bid to conquer the world in the middle ages. Even if you don't manage it, you are almost assured of a late game conquer win.

I more or less agree with everything in your post, except this specific paragraph. I actually find the opposite to be true. IMHO, at deity, if you haven't gone to war before your infrastructure is built, the AI will have run away from you. I am skeptical that you can win at deity by waiting for cossacks to settle the issue. By then, the AI probably is fielding tanks.

All of the issues you noted are absolutely true. It is very hard to get a fast domination win at deity because of the challenge of maintaining all of the cities with minimal infrastructure. However, by the time you build a good infrastructure, your early UU's will be obsolete. So, the answer to this paradox???? Speed! I believe the trick at deity is to hit hard and fast, then let your infrastructure catch up. This means early UU's.

If you go down a couple of levels (maybe to Monarch or Emperor??), you are not under the same suffocating time pressure as deity. Given you don't need a fast win, then I think your premise on the value of later UU's is very valid. I've certainly been frustrated in games where an early UU becomes obsolete. This is why I don't like Quechua... if its not a dual map, they become obsolete way before the outcome of the game is settled. By the way, Cossacks are one of my favorites! And, like Oggums, I also like Sami's. But, at deity, give me Praets!

Interesting thread... good post!

 

[Wodan]

Interesting thread... good post!

Thanks.

I'm not saying it's Ultimate Truth (tm), but I'll argue it over a beer. I'll even buy the beers.

Wodan

 

[The-Hawk]

I'm not saying it's Ultimate Truth (tm), but I'll argue it over a beer. I'll even buy the beers.

Wodan

Hmmmm... the "Ultimate Truth"???? Can I infer from this that you are going to buy 42 beers? Count me in!

 

[Zombie69]

If you conquer significant territory before you have the infrastructure, then you get way behind in tech and effectively lose the game.

You've never lost the game when you have twice the land of your closest rival. Any tech disadvantage is then quickly overturned into a tech advantage and a win at your own leisure.

On the other hand, at higher levels, the opposite of what you said is true. If you don't conquer significant territory before you have the infrastructure, then you get way behind in tech and effectively lose the game. Infrastructure or not, you can't compete in tech with the AI with an equivalent number of cities. And then you won't even be able to conquer anything anymore because you'll be fighting forces twice as powerful and advanced as yours.

The best thing to do is always to conquer until your tech is down to 0%, and then catch up. After you've built your infrastructure, you'll be way too powerful for anyone else to stand a chance against you.

Sure, your strategy works at lower levels, but then at those levels anything works anyway.

 

[Oggums]

-- most people get Education / Liberalism / Economics first, and then go for Gunpowder. In effect, those people are choosing to get Musketeers/Musketmen late. On top of that, Chemistry is probably one of the next picks... Well, yeah, in those cases the Musket troops are "short lived". How about get Gunpowder first. Then, go for the Education tree. You might find yourself exploring a strat you weren't aware of....

Here's what I don't get then. If the correct time to get Musket troops is before Education, then how is it you consider the Muskets to be superior due to coming after infrastructure? I would think that makes them inferior, since you will clearly be neglecting your infrastructure by building troops instead of universities.

 

[Mutineer]

Actially idea is to get Muskeets after liberalism slingshot to nationalism and draft them. It could be done very fast with GS assistance.
(Philosofy, paper, education are GS assist research.)
You can do it extrimelly early, when 90 shields take for ever to produce naturally. Nationalism drafting will give you Musketeers and you produce naturally cats.
Musketeers are universal unit, they work good agains everything medieval, may be exept knigths on the open.
But useally opponent does not have knigth yet.

 

[Mahatmajon]

I agree with the logic of your premise but also disagree with the conclusion. Yes, strong midgame UU's can be very powerful for conquering lands which can quickly lead to an overstretched empire, but there are many ways around this. I've had a lot of success recently with Montezuma (which can hardly be considered a strong UU, but pretorians are the same idea in this case). Instead of rapid expansion I build up my empire slowly, get Iron working quickly, then expand with the *cough* help of one or two of my neighbors. During the time of the strongest advantage with these troops (before Feudalism) the ideal case is to wipe out 1 enemy and cripple another while gaining a religion. Most cities are kept but poorly placed ones are razed & new cities built in better places during the war.

Restoring the economy is surprisingly easy with a newfound religion to spread (& a shrine to build) along with organized religion built courthouses and currency/code of laws natural techs to get to. All in all science goes from 100% before the initial war down to ~40% by the end of the war but currency takes it back up 10%, courthouses another 20%, & religion spreading can be another 20%.

I've even managed to successfully fight with Keshiks in a current game doing the same plan, but mostly I use axemen. I think I may agree with your premise for War Chariots & Immortals. These units are strong enough to take cities (unlike Quecha & Skirmishers (unless in LARGE numbers)) but it's so early in the game that your economy can't handle much expansion and is a long way from Currency/CoL to get the economy moving.

 

[Wodan]

You've never lost the game when you have twice the land of your closest rival. Any tech disadvantage is then quickly overturned into a tech advantage and a win at your own leisure.

Not sure I buy that statement. Care to offer any supporting evidence, such as a directly-experienced anecdote?

Math would help, too. e.g., 10 techs behind in XXXX AD on YYY level, Research set at AA% with BB cities resulting in CC beakers, results in how many turns before you catch up (keeping in mind the AI is progressing in tech while you do that.) Devil's advocate would have DD cities with Research at EE% resulting in FF beakers, and how many turns there, too.

On the other hand, at higher levels, the opposite of what you said is true. If you don't conquer significant territory before you have the infrastructure, then you get way behind in tech and effectively lose the game. Infrastructure or not, you can't compete in tech with the AI with an equivalent number of cities. And then you won't even be able to conquer anything anymore because you'll be fighting forces twice as powerful and advanced as yours.

Good point.

Except that you can be "way behind" in tech and still have a better military. Let's pick a random spot in the middle ages. You've rushed to Gunpowder. The AI has Gunpowder PLUS the whole Education tree. How many techs ahead? Well, he could have as many as a (let me count...) about a dozen techs and still not have any better units than your Musket troops. Plus, a human will always have better tactics, that's a given.

The best thing to do is always to conquer until your tech is down to 0%, and then catch up. After you've built your infrastructure, you'll be way too powerful for anyone else to stand a chance against you.

Based on your other comments, I think the above statement is using the assumption "at higher levels". Correct?

That's exactly the point I'm disputing. I think everybody is "used" to using this strategy. And, I'm not sure it's optimum. At higher levels and starting with 5-6 cities, you can only conquer until you have about 10-12 cities before your economy crashes. So, you then stop and build infrastructure. Keep in mind that you will probably conquer these cities quite fast and won't have the Economic techs. So, you're at 0% Research. How do you propose to "build your infrastructure"? Cottage, is the only way. You might have Marketplaces, and yes that'll help. Still, point is, the path you recommend has a direct result of putting you quite a bit behind the AIs in tech, as they will be researching at normal levels (70-80%). By the time you "catch up" most of the game will have passed. Especially at "higher levels".

I guess all I'm saying is I've done this pretty much since I got the game (October, wasn't it? Man, that's ages ago.). In the past month, I started to challenge my own assumptions. So, I played a couple of games with the strategies I propose in mind, and they have done quite well. So well that I think they were better than I would have done with my "tried and true" strategies. So... I'm sharing that.

Try it out! That's all I suggest. Then, come back and challenge the idea.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Here's what I don't get then. If the correct time to get Musket troops is before Education, then how is it you consider the Muskets to be superior due to coming after infrastructure? I would think that makes them inferior, since you will clearly be neglecting your infrastructure by building troops instead of universities.

By "infrastructure" I have been meaning economic infrastructure.

Universities don't help you hold a bigger empire. Markets do.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

BTW, I'm not advocating "don't go to war early." Far from it. I do believe an early war can help, especially on high levels. Axemen is the best time for this war.

But the goal of that war is simply a tidy little chunk of territory. 3 cities, no more.

Meanwhile, build infrastructure. Cottage spam & markets. Go for Cossacks, Musketeers, or Redcoats. Ignore the Education tree and especially don't waste your time on expensive Universities and Wonders you don't need, etc. After you get your UU, build them, and then go for Economics. You'll need those banks soon enough. But, don't wait to start your war of conquest until you have Banks... begin as soon as you have enough of your UU.

The whole point I'm trying to make is that choosing one of these Civs will be more optimal than "wasting" your UU early. You can get your early expansion just fine with Axes. Beeline for your UU. Meanwhile, it gives you the time to build your economic infrastructure, which will enable you to have a war of conquest without your economy crashing and without you getting 10+ techs behind the AIs.

Wodan

 

[Oggums]

I guess I was assuming that, if you're waiting on the banks/universites until after your second war, then it's better to go ahead and start the 2nd war sooner with macemen rather than wait on the cossacks and rifles. I usually start building loads of macemen as soon as I finish the library, market and courthouse building phase.

 

[Yva!n]

- Conquistadors get defensive bonuses from cities, forests, hills, etc.

Whoa I had completely missed that - my current game is playing Spain. I had started a war with my leading rival strictly cuz it was the window of time where my UU was useful - now I see it's even more useful.

Makes me want to start a Spanish Terra game and rush the new world with Conquistadors (instead of waiting for Cavalry) - Wow fortify a couple of Conquistators in some woods and watch the barbarian macemen hordes break on your 20 Str units. What's this the UU doing EXACTLY what their historical progenitor did?

 

[Paeanblack]

The Musketeer is not superior to many of the UUs you list as sub-optimal, because the Muskets become obsolete very quickly.

It took me a long time to really nail down a good way to use Musketeers. My problem was that I was taking the wrong path through the tech tree. Musketeers are now one of my favorite units on a shorter length game or on a bigger map.

Most of the time, I take the "North path" to the Renaissance. I hit Alphabet to pick up my religious techs, and then plow through to Paper to scout the world. I'll then grab Liberalism, etc. If you play France, this will totally waste the Musketeer.

To use the Musketeer, you need to take the "South path". Get Bronzeworking, Pottery, then click on Gunpowder and wait. The research times are going to look very daunting, but there aren't that many techs in the chain. During this time, build nothing but workers, settlers, barracks, and enough spears/axemen to keep safe. Get some granaries when you run out of things to do.

Get a hefty number of workers...about double the number you would normally use. Cottage your cities up to the happiness limit and start working them. Then start building farms everywhere else (but don't work them). Build roads to your future targets.

Pretty soon you have gunpowder, and nobody has a clue what to do about it. The real trick now is to basically trash your entire civilization. Slide your science to zero...you have nothing more to research, but you will have troops to pay for. Whip every city back to the Stone Age and start working those farms. When they grow, whip them again. Don't stop whipping until the happiness penalty will be longer than 30-40 turns. When you are between whips, use all your workers to chop for musketeers. A good target is producing 3-5 Musketeers each turn until you have absolutely no production capacity left. Seriously...kill all your cities and citizens...you don't need them anymore.

Go to war...with almost everybody. You have more combat strength than any other three civs combined, and you desperately need craploads of money to pay those troops.

From about 200AD to 800AD, the world is yours. Have fun with it.

The most important thing right now is keeping an eye on your treasury. Try to keep your war machine self-sustaining with pillages and city captures, but it won't be enough. Aim for holy cities first and then target key wonder cities. Raze the useless conquests (about half of them) and keep moving. Speed is crucial. Bring your combat engineers (workers) along building invasion roads for the stragglers. If one city is garrisoned too well, ignore it. Strip the countryside bare and blow past it.

When grenadiers are close to appearing, you need to start thinking about your exit strategy. Your economy is in the crapper, your people hate you, and you are about to run out of money fast. Trick number two: take over someone else's territory. In most cases there will be one empire you essentially conquered intact. It's on good land, you took it out without torching the country, and you like it better. Use up some of your excess troops obliterating that civilization and jump your palace to the best conquered city. Pick up all of your missing Ancient and Classical era techs when making peace. Give away your (now horrible) original cities to various other civs around the world and create some nice tensions between them.

At the end of it all, you should be approaching 1000AD, and the entire world is a giant, fragmented, patchwork mess. You, however, are holding all the best cities on the best terrain, and your opponents have little future. Once you get some economy rolling again, you can come back to wipe them out with riflemen.


The fun part of playing France is that when you fail, you fail spectacularly. If the money runs out mid-campaign, you are utterly toast. I think Civ is much more fun when you are sitting there thinking, "If I don't capture this city, this turn, 30 Musketeers will disband." It certainly makes combat more exciting.

 

[incubuspawn]

Been thinking about strategy instead of tactics lately. Here's my contention: many early and midgame UUs (e.g., Praetorian) are not suited to be used as effective offensive units and conquer significant territory.

Here's why: you need an effective infrastructure to support significant territory expanses. Such infrastructure is not possible without markets, banks, etc. These buildings need midgame tech plus time to build them.

If you conquer significant territory before you have the infrastructure, then you get way behind in tech and effectively lose the game. That's why many Roman players have a tough late game. Using those Praetorians is just too hard to resist.

Now, that's not to say you can't use an early UU to get moderate increases in territory. Say 25% (2-4 additional cities). That's actually your best move.

Also, that's not to say you can't use your UU in another role. e.g., defensive (so you can build minimum military and focus your production upon infrastructure), raiding (hamstringing your neighbors by pillaging their improvements), or gifting your UUs to prop up weak AIs who are in war against strong aggressive AIs.

Likewise... there might be other effective strategies: "think outside the box" strategies. e.g., use Praetorians to raze, not conquer. Effectively wipe clean the planet, except maybe a city with Pyramids and such. Sure, barbs will be a problem, but your Praets shouldn't have too much trouble. Ditto on Cho-Ko-Nu and most other UUs in this category.

I'm not saying you can't win the game on a high skill level, just that it is never going to be as optimum as having a good UU come into play after your infrastructure is built. Cossack etc will provide a more optimum game than Praets etc. Yes, you have a smaller territory with your core infrastructure, but you get your core infrastructure built earlier, and you get techs such as Military Tradition earlier, and you then can more than double your empire and have a successful bid to conquer the world in the middle ages. Even if you don't manage it, you are almost assured of a late game conquer win.

Finally, some UUs come too late to be effective in a bid to conquer. By that time, your success or failure is determined by what has gone before. The UU will aid you in what you are doing anyway, but you won't win because of the UU.

So, here are the UUs I think are suboptimal: Camel Archer, Cho-Ko-Nu, Conquistador, Immortal, Jaguar, Keshik, Phalanx, Quecha, Samurai, Skirmisher, War Chariot

Here are the UUs which are superior: Cossack, Musketeer, Redcoat

Non-factors to this discussion: Fast Worker, Navy SEAL, Panzer

Wodan

I disagree on the immortal. I think it is one of the best UU in the game. It works really well with Persia. Persia has expansion and Creative. This means their cities can grow larger faster than most other civs. If you have horse then you can build immortals and take out all of your neighbors rather quickly. So what you end up with is fast growing cities AND early conquest wrapped up in a neat little ball. I think that under the players control Persia has one of the strongest if not the strongest ancient era civs to play.
I am suprised you have cho-Ko-nu listed their. It is the most versatile unit in the game and is not obsolete at the blink of an eye. Wether you are playign defensivly or offensivly the cho-ku-nu really stands out.
I agree with the samurai, I was really disapointed that they replace macemen and no Knights, and I don't like the forced improvement that the agression trait gives. BUt still they do have their use.
The jaguar is also an awesome unit I am suprised you listed. It is a shame that the ai Aztec player never goes to war when it can still use it.