Ancient Illyria and Ethnic Albania as Playable Civilizations!

Biki po m'duket se je Shqiptar prej Kosovet.

I didn't want to go too in-depth with the city list, because 28 cities is enough. Thanks for your suggestions though. Keep in mind that many of those cities (the important ones) are already listed. Some of the ones you mentioned are even Illyrian cities.

Regarding the Kosovar cities you added, I am very close to releasing a Kosova civilization. The only thing I'm waiting for is a civilopedia entry. The mod will feature 21 Kosovar cities :)

Regarding Leke Dukagjini, he wasn't a leader of all Albanians. Some people suggested I make Ded Gjo Luli a leader of Albania as well, because he was one of the leaders of the rebellion for Independence and raised the Albanian flag to proclaim Albanian independence in 1911, but he doesn't represent all Albanians, and neither does Leke Dukagjini. No one can compare to Gjergj Kastrioti, and he was the only one in Albanian history to completely unite all Albanians.

I'm really glad that you liked the mod. Stay tuned for my next civ :D
 
Hello to all,
I think that one of the problems faced by the countries of the Balkans in the modern era, is the continuous searching of a glorious past instead of focusing in a constructive and peaceful future. People from FYRoM claim that Alexander the Great and modern day Macedonians are related, Albanians claim that they are purely Illyrians and so on... And what if Serbs, Albanians, Macedonians, Bulgarians, e.t.c. just came to live in the Balkans after the 10th century A.D.?
Nationalism is the “Balkanians'” weakest point!

Irrelatively to that, good job as for what it concerns CIV IV development efforts.

From Wikipedia:

Albanoi
Albanoi first occurs in extant written sources in a work of Ptolemy dating back to 130 AD. "Albanopolis of the Albanoi" appears on a map of Ptolemy, a place located in what is now North central Albania.
The Albanoi were Illyrians, but whether the modern Albanians have an ethnic continuity with the Illyrian Albanoi is disputed (see Origin of Albanians), and the ethnonym may have been transferred to an unrelated people. The Albanoi are also named on a Roman-era family epitaph at Scupi, which has been identified with the Zgërdhesh hill-fort near Kruja in northern Albania.

The origin of Albanians has been for some time a matter of dispute among historians.

An argument that sustains a northern origin of Albanians is the relatively small number of words of Greek origin, although Southern Illyria was under the influence of Greek/Byzantinecivilization and language, especially after the breakdown of the Roman Empire.

The first undisputed mention of the ancestors of the modern Albanians seems to be in the form of Arbanitai of Arbanon in Anna Comnena account of the troubles in that region caused in the reign of her father Alexius I Comnenus (1081- 1118) by the Normans.

Continuity in Albania south of the Jireček Line
The Jireček Line divides the areas of the Balkans which were under Latin and Greek influence.
Many problems for the theory of Albanian continuity in Albania are recognized, and the problems are addressed in various ways as the case may be.
One problem is the lack of clear archaeological evidence for a continuous settlement of an Albanian-speaking population since Illyrian times. For example, while several scholars maintain that the Komani-Kruja burial sites support the Illyrian-Albanian continuity theory, other scholars reject this and consider that the remains indicate a population of Romanized Illyrians who spoke a Romanic language.
The lack or scarcity of definite loans from ancient Greek into Albanian is another problem (v. Hemp). As the Jireček Line shows, if Albanians were continuously settled throughout Albania since Illyrian times, they would have been, in the south, in more or less constant contact with the Greeks, and the absence or scarcity of definite loans from ancient Greek is hard to explain within the context of Albanian continuity. Even Greek loans into Illyrian are known (cf. Wilkes, et al.; including Illyrian names borrowed from Greek), so their absence in Albanian as an alleged descendant of Illlyrian as it was spoken in Albania is doubly difficult to explain.
Another problem is the ancient Illyrian and Roman toponyms (including hydronyms, etc.) in what is now Albania compared to their equivalents in the Albanian language. While a number may (most cases are contested among linguists) pose no major or definite problem in terms of linguistic evolution (v. Hemp), many others appear to have entered through one or more intermediary languages, which strongly indicates that the ancestors of Albanians were not in Albania (v. Hemp et al.). For example, Albanian Shkoder from Latin Scodra and Albanian Tomor from Latin Tomarus do not match the Albanian phonological evolution (v. Hemp).

The written historical records pose another problem. The modern Albanians were not mentioned in Byzantine chronicles until 1043, although Illyria was part of the Byzantine Empire. The Illyrians are referred to for the last time as an ethnic group in Miracula Sancti Demetri (7th century AD).
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All I had to read was your "Athens, Greece" location to know where you were going with this ;)

Anyway, how do you like the mod?
 
Hi from Athens,

I admire people who are able to construct mods, so I have no further comments on that!

This forum has opened my horizons. I love reading people's beliefs and I respect them all.
My favourite is a Turkish guy, he knows a lot about history and is very polite most of the times (Tunch Khan, I think).

I have read about 20 of your posts (mostly answers in the Serb civ mod). Some times they are very aggressive and appear to be a little "nationalistic"...

I was sad to read that you dislike Greeks because "of what they have done to your people". I do not know what you mean and I hope that one day you will change your mind.
A lot of Greeks hate modern Albanians "because of what they have done to Greek people in the present days and in the past". I think that we should never let the past or a minority of the people in the present, influence our judgement.

I try not to think of what an Ethnic Greece should be, because then, there would be no place left in South-Eastern Europe or the Near-East (Asia) for other countries!!! :)

Try to be cool and try to think "out of the box". Live and let live. There is a need for a United Europe, not for 300 small countries fighting each other!

Thanks for your reply and keep in touch!

George (Giorgos) [civ4]
 
Sideral said:
I was sad to read that you dislike Greeks because "of what they have done to your people". I do not know what you mean and I hope that one day you will change your mind.

See below

Sideral said:
A lot of Greeks hate modern Albanians "because of what they have done to Greek people in the present days and in the past". I think that we should never let the past or a minority of the people in the present, influence our judgement.

That is it, just for us, it's the oposite ;) althrough i dont know what Albanians did to Greeks :confused:.

Anyway we should learn from the past and not make the same mistakes we did.

PS.

What do you mean with you dont want a united Europe?
 
Shqype said:
Regarding the Kosovar cities you added, I am very close to releasing a Kosova civilization. The only thing I'm waiting for is a civilopedia entry. The mod will feature 21 Kosovar cities :)

Sure go ahead, but... lol gimme a break they have been quasi-independent for less than a decade, how come you consider them a seperate civilization? Kosovars are part of the Albanian Civilization and I think you should respect their feelings towards that and include their cities to your Albanian mod. :)

Regarding Serbs of Kosova; as much as I respect their historical sentiments and obsession of the area, it is simply a failed colonization attempt.

The land (Dardania) was inhabited bu Illyrians/Albanians for ages and later incorporated into Roman Empire. Serbs arrived to the Balkans around 6th and 7th Centuries and occasionally settled in Kosova which shifted between Albanians, Bulgarians and the Byzantine Empire. With the loss of Byzantine power, Serbs attempted to annex it in 13th Century to their own kingdom, only to be conquered by the Turks in 14th Century. Serbs weren't a majority before the Ottomans and even after the Ottoman loss in 1912. The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and later Yugoslavia aimed to consolidate Serbian influence in the region by open discrimination to Albanians and after 1989 under Milosevic, they revoked all Kosovan authonomy and started ethnic cleansing which resulted in NATO/Russian invasion in 1999.

All through it's history Kosova did not create a seperate identity other than Albanian. Even during the Yugoslav era (pre Milosevic), there were talks about uniting Kosova with Albania and to accept Albania as the 7th Republic within Yugoslav Federation.

Anywhere you go in Kosova today you will see Albanian flags in public buildings and Serbian flag in the small strip of land to the north hold by Serbians. The Serbian minority is strictly split from the rest of the country and Croats and Turks seem to be happy under the Albanian administration. The official presidential flag has the Albanian eagle on red background with the motto "Dardania" inscribed.
 
Tunch Khan, thanks for your facts, because you are right in what you say.

All through it's history Kosova did not create a seperate identity other than Albanian. Even during the Yugoslav era (pre Milosevic), there were talks about uniting Kosova with Albania and to accept Albania as the 7th Republic within Yugoslav Federation.
During WWII Kosova was actually united with Albania, but the anti-Albanian dictator of Albania "sold" it Yugoslavia shortly before the proposed plans to merge the two countries.

I was sad to read that you dislike Greeks because "of what they have done to your people". I do not know what you mean and I hope that one day you will change your mind.
This was a reference to Greeks mistreating the Albanians. Not just that, but also ancient Greeks "adopting" Illyrian Gods (now considered Greek Polytheism), and all throughout the centuries mistreatment, including the more recent ethnic cleansing of the Albanians of Cameria by the Greek government, and the forced assimilation by making Albanians "hellenize" their names and speak the language.

I once had a Greek teacher in school that told me it was a horrible how bad the Greeks treat the Albanians.

That being said, I don't "hate" Greeks. There are good and bad in all ethnicities, Albanian, Greek, Serb, Turk, etj. But I'm not fond of theft and genocide, to say the least.

Sure go ahead, but... lol gimme a break they have been quasi-independent for less than a decade, how come you consider them a seperate civilization? Kosovars are part of the Albanian Civilization and I think you should respect their feelings towards that and include their cities to your Albanian mod.
There are 4 cities in Kosova as part of the Albanian city list for my mod, because they are more important to the greater Albanian identity than some of the other cities. Kosovar cities ARE a part of Albania, and they ARE Albanian.

This civilization is "Kosova Republik" because that is the "new" name of the country, to Albanians, as Kosovars are on the verge of independence. This civilization also has Rugova as the leader of it, and it is in his honor (past drite) that I create this.
 
Hopefully negative thoughts can be put aside. Today is an important day in Albanian history: Kuvendi i Lezhes! Yes, 562 years ago on March 2, 1444 Gjergj Kastrioti united all Albanian princes, land barons, and tribal chieftains at the principality of Lezhe in open rebellion against the Ottoman overlords. This was the first time in Albanian history that the Albanians were fully unified; it was the beginning of nationalist (as opposed to regional) thought.

Beslidhja e Lezhes:
krujebeslidhja9yq.jpg
 
Shqype said:
This was a reference to Greeks mistreating the Albanians. Not just that, but also ancient Greeks "adopting" Illyrian Gods (now considered Greek Polytheism)...

I, myself being a Greek God :D :D :D , cannot imagine hating the modern Italians because the ancient Romans have adopted the Greek Pantheon!

Jokes put aside, I wish you a happy National Day and I want to stress out that people should be proud of their own achievements and need not to refer to an ancient civilization (e.g. Illyrians) to feel complete as individuals or as a nation.

P.S. Isn't there any "Historical-Geopolitical" discussion thread in this site?
P.S. (2) Check this site if you have time: http://www.ancientgreece.com/mythology/mythology.htm
 
Jokes put aside, I wish you a happy National Day and I want to stress out that people should be proud of their own achievements and need not to refer to an ancient civilization (e.g. Illyrians) to feel complete as individuals or as a nation.
This ancient civilization has survived 33 armed invasions and remains to this day situated in the same area (although much smaller) that it once thrived in.

This is true with the Greeks as well (unless you're one that believes ancient Greeks and modern Greeks are 2 different people ;) )
 
Sideral said:
I, myself being a Greek God :D :D :D , cannot imagine hating the modern Italians because the ancient Romans have adopted the Greek Pantheon!
Hehe, and don't forget the Catholics borrowing the same. ;)

- Holy Spirit (Zeus - Baal - Amon - Jupiter - Ra - Ahura Mazda - Ashur - Marduk)
- Jesus Christ (Dionysus - Apollon - Horus/Osiris - Mithra - Prometheus - Heracles)
- Virgin Mary (Hera - Cybele - Isis - Demeter - Rhea - Vesta -how many women did Zeus impregnate without showing his form?)
- Satan (Hades - Ahriman, Zoroastrian Prince of Darkness, Anubis, Pluto, Pan)
- Hell (Tartarus)
- Heaven (Olympos)
- Adam and Eve (Enki and Ninhursag - Inanna and Utu)
- Noah (Utnapishtim, same guy with different name from Gilgamesh epic)
- Mary Magdalene (Aphrodite - Athena - Ishtar - Pershephone)
- Abraham (Uranus - Chronos)
- Enoch (Hermes - Mercury)
- Moses (Sargon of Akkad - Oedipus)
- John the Babtist (Elijah - Poseidon - Enki)
- Saint Michael (Ares, Perun, Mars)
- Saint Paul (Jason)
- Saint Anthony (Adonis - Tammuz)
- The quest for the Golden Fleece (The quest for the Holy Grail)

The Judeo-Christian tradition and Islam didn't hesitate quite a bit to grab any shiny icon on their paths and use them to solidify their hold on people who were/are eager to worship anything for their interests (health,money,children,prosperous season,safe journey,rain,sun,wife,husband,etc.).
 
Tunch Khan, at least get it right with the Illyrian Gods:

God: Zot (Greek Zues)
Aferdita (Greek Aphrodite)
E Thana (Greek Athena)

Just to name a few :D
 
player1 fanatic said:
[...]Now, your Kalorse compared to that had +1movement (alone makes worth UU), excellent retreat chance of 35% (does that include flanking too?) and first stike, with loss of first stike immunity.
[...]
ù

with flanking I free promotion, First Strike immunity is only one promotion away... (flanking II).
 
Shqype said:
Regarding UU balance, thanks to player1 fanatic's suggestions, I have removed the Flanking 1 promotion on the Kalorse and have reduced the withdrawal probably from 35% to 25%. The 100 cost (instead of 90), is still in effect. I brought it down to 2 movement and gave it "ignores terrain movement costs" instead, since they travelled very quickly through the hilly, mountainous, foresty terrain of Albania to meet the Turkish armies. The revised stats of the Kalorse:

-10 strength, 2 movement, ignores terrain movement costs, 1 first strike, doesn't recieve defensive bonuses, 25% withdrawal chance, 100 cost

Also, the city "Manastiri" is added to Albania. The city "Manastir" is added to Illyria. Now reading up on it, I can't believe I overlooked this addition. It is fairly important in Albanian history. Thanks, Tunch Khan.

These changes are in the new, uploaded version, to be found in the second post on the first page of this thread. Upload pending acceptance at 3D Downloads, to be up soon!

I don't think that was the right way to balance the unit because of the concept you wanted of it. The problem in balance was caused by the fact that you didn't consider that hit-and-run units have generally considerably lower strength than regular units. I would have kept the 3 movements and flanking I at the cost of 2 strength points.
 
Sideral said:
I try not to think of what an Ethnic Greece should be, because then, there would be no place left in South-Eastern Europe or the Near-East (Asia) for other countries!!! :)

now now... let's make a bet: are there more latin terms in english or greek ones ?

Truth is that Ethnics change with time. Italians who consider themselves descendants of romans are simply laughable :lol:
we are two completely different civilizations... the same with illyrians and people who live in the balkans nowadays, or greeks or egyptians of the classical age and of the modern age.
 
I think that there is more consistentency of ethnicities in places that are more isolated. For instance, the Italians are going to be more mixed in areas which have a lot of turnover when they get invaded by others or are generally cosmopolitan. The same will be true in Albania, where the more isolated and rural areas in which the Ottomans or Italians or Serbs never really spent much effort trying to subdue or interbreed with the goat-herders of the hills will be closer to the Illyrian ethnicity than the people of Durres or Tirana, where they experienced much more cultural mixing.

Nothing is static, but I'm just saying its important to look at geographical isolation as a factor in cultural development.
quick aside: Did you know the most people in the world are related to genetically? This one Han chinese general I believe, comes in a close second to Chinggis Khan. Mongols are a good example, they were probably highly homogenous for a while, and then they became extremely diverse as they mixed with all the people of eurasia, practically, but now the ones who have stayed in the steppe are relatively isolated and probably ethnically close to the original mongols. Anyway, I just wanted to say that while all ethnic Albanians are not descended from the Illyrians, many are, just as there are some Egyptians descended from the aincents, although theres been Arab, Turk, Greek, French, English, Nubian and probably several other invasions and mixings in the interim.

Ok I really need to get back to work with my translations.
 
The same will be true in Albania, where the more isolated and rural areas in which the Ottomans or Italians or Serbs never really spent much effort trying to subdue or interbreed with the goat-herders of the hills will be closer to the Illyrian ethnicity than the people of Durres or Tirana, where they experienced much more cultural mixing.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that while all ethnic Albanians are not descended from the Illyrians, many are, just as there are some Egyptians descended from the aincents, although theres been Arab, Turk, Greek, French, English, Nubian and probably several other invasions and mixings in the interim.
jlocke, you really are enlightened!

Illyrians were split up in tribes and competed with other. This is true with the Albanians, and unity (except for the rebellion against the Turks led by Gjergj Kastrioti) didn't come until around the 20th century.

Now, Albania has mountainous terrain and lowlands. Northern Albania has a region called "Malsia e Madhe" (the Great Highlands), which was split up with half of the region given to Montenegro by Europe in 1878. These mountaineers (until very recently) still lived in their elaborate tribal systems. They were cut off, pretty much, from the rest of the world; for this reason they are culturally rich and maintained older traditions while other Albanians in the lowlands interacted with different civilizations and adopted new ways of life. The tribal differences I mentioned above have evolved into regional differences which can still plague Albanian unity today.

These mountaineers that I speak of were practically declared "enemies of the people" by the communist dictator, Enver Hoxha. They were members of the Catholic Church which the communist regime deemed as a threat, so they were executed. It was these mountaineers that provided the sole resistance to communism in Albania and it was these mountaineers that killed communists. Thus, they were not only killed, but there was discrimination against them: southerners, more influenced by Greek culture, lived in cities and not in the tribal mountains like the north. They were more "modernized" and thus considered the mountaineers to be largely uneducated and "backwards."

This is a very sensitive subject because of the disunity and centuries old tribal competition that it entails. But, on the same token, it shows that these "backwards" northerners largely maintained the traditions of their Illyrian ancestors. They were largely innacessible to conquerors and were able to slowly develop "untouched." During the Ottoman Empire's occupation some of these tribes made constant warfare on the empire's armies, running on 'seasonal calendars,' decimating Turkish soldiers by Spring and Summer, then going back into their mountains for Fall and Winter.

These mountains are what saved the Illyrian and Albanian identities throughout the 33 armed invasions that the people have endured. Lowland areas were much more accessible and of course were more likely to be mixed, assimilated, etj.

I don't think that was the right way to balance the unit because of the concept you wanted of it. The problem in balance was caused by the fact that you didn't consider that hit-and-run units have generally considerably lower strength than regular units. I would have kept the 3 movements and flanking I at the cost of 2 strength points.
First, I'de like to thank you for offering your thoughts and suggestions about the balance of the UU.

Now, that is what I thought originally, lowering the strength to allow for the aforementioned stats. However, it is misleading. Let me tell you why: historically, Albanians have been much fewer in number, but stronger warriors. [This is true in some aspects even today, but the technology needed to become a "strong warrior" on today's battlefield largely makes this untrue.]

I have the most definitive work [that I know] of Gjergj Kastrioti's battles against the Ottoman Empire. The stats for the Kalorse I got from this book. It is not that they were inferior warriors that hit-and-ran, it is that they were brave, fearless warriors that had the element of surprise that attacked-and-withdrew. They employed these tactics mostly on stationary Ottoman forces, such as those situated in an Ottoman camp outside the fortress they were attempting to besiege: Kruja. But, in other instances, a small amount of such forces were able to route much larger Ottoman armies.

Later I will look through this book and copy down some passages to show you what I mean. And, for what they did, I believe the current stats of the Kalorse are fair (they should have a much higher withdrawal chance but I have to think about balance; don't worry though, they will be optimized in the scenario I'm creating of Gjergj Kastrioti vs. the Ottoman Empire ;))
 
I'm really glad you liked it :)

Would you mind posting your experiences here with the mod? What do you like about it? What don't you like about it? How could this be made better?

Also, if you don't mind, would you mind sharing where you're from? Albania is a big place ;)
 
Why "ethnic Albanian mod"? Why not just Albanian mod?
You didnt have enough city names, so you picked it from all neighbour countries or what?
 
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