Ancient Units for GAK

[Kurtbob]

I am no longer attached to grenadiers for my missing link. They were elite units that lobbed grenades and were used to assault fortifications, not exactly something an archer or a machine gun unit would do. Grenadiers would have to lose their ability to melee attack if they were to be in the ranged tree, so this wouldn't work. It would make more sense for them to be an elite melee unit.

Lord Olleus: I like your ideas for the two melee trees! Elite and standard. Now we just need an irregular/support tree. Skirmishers would fit quite well there.

The archers to machine gun tree is too awkward for me. Weak combat 2-hex ranged units upgrading to strong 1-hex ranged units is rather odd and really doesn't flow. It makes it even harder to find a missing link. I would like to see a unit that losses its 2-hex ranged attack but has an increase in its combat value (but no melee attack). Skirmishers could fit this role as long as they aren't given a bunch of promotions or abilities that seem out of place in the tree. Extra movement, hit and run, bonus in rough terrain, etc. Everything they logically should have they can't have if they are the missing link. I'm really scratching my head on this one.

Ghenjikhan: Gattling guns have movement 3? That dosen't seem correct...

 

[King of Prussia]

Ghenjikhan: Gattling guns have movement 3? That dosen't seem correct...

Perhaps they made it that way to compensate for it's 1 range? It is somewhat odd because it can out move a normal melee unit that has 2 moves.

 

[Kurtbob]

Perhaps they made it that way to compensate for it's 1 range? It is somewhat odd because it can out move a normal melee unit that has 2 moves.

I can't imagine it having movment 3. Move two, set-up and fire. Brutal. But then again, I haven't the slightest idea how 1-hex ranged units will work out.

 

[CivilizationRox]

Just wondering, wasn't a skirmisher unit basically a elite unit with javelins or bows?

 

[GenjiKhan]

Ghenjikhan: Gattling guns have movement 3? That dosen't seem correct...

Sorry,made a mistake . What I mean is that Skirmishes would have +1 range like Gatling guns,but it would have +3 movement instead having +2 movement of Gatling guns .

 

[Kurtbob]

Just wondering, wasn't a skirmisher unit basically a elite unit with javelins or bows?

I don't know if they are considered elite, but they did use bows, javelins, slings and other projecticle weapons to harrass and weaken the enemy. They were usually lightly armed and armored. They rarely made up the center of an army but did support it.

 

[Kurtbob]

Sorry,made a mistake . What I mean is that Skirmishes would have +1 range like Gatling guns,but it would have +3 movement instead having +2 movement of Gatling guns .

No worries. I think +1 range would be good, but I don't like the 3 movement. They are still footmen afterall.

 

[DeathFace]

To be honest, I would hate to have Grenadiers as a unit. This is mostly because to be it would stick out as a sore thumb. I have never heard of a military unit made up completely of troops who just throw grenades. I mean wouldn't they have a musket or a sword or some other weapon? The only way I could see this implemented as a promotion for infantry units unlocked after a certain tech. But if someone could convince me otherwise then I would support adding it as a unit.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Just wondering, wasn't a skirmisher unit basically a elite unit with javelins or bows?

Minus the elite, yeah (in Rome, they were the lower classes). The best representation of a skirmisher is the Slinger. Engage briefly, throw/shoot their projectiles, and retreat.

 

[GenjiKhan]

No worries. I think +1 range would be good, but I don't like the 3 movement. They are still footmen afterall.

Their main role in combat was using tactics like "hit and run",to weaken the enemy formation before the combat with other units like musketmans or cavalry,for example . Usually,they tried to take down the leaders of the enemy and they need to be light for avoiding direct combat,so the +3 movement would be justified .

 

[King of Prussia]

To be honest, I would hate to have Grenadiers as a unit. This is mostly because to be it would stick out as a sore thumb. I have never heard of a military unit made up completely of troops who just throw grenades. I mean wouldn't they have a musket or a sword or some other weapon? The only way I could see this implemented as a promotion for infantry units unlocked after a certain tech. But if someone could convince me otherwise then I would support adding it as a unit.

Well grenadies did have a musket and were made up of the biggest and strongest men. It would be silly for a whole regiment to be going around the battlefield with just grenades. I wouldn't think they would last that long if they were that way.

but I don't really see a place for them in this current Civ.

 

[Louis XXIV]

skirmisher is really just a formation which means "not in ranks", but "in a loose scattered formation". Pretty much all infantry since WW1 probably count as skirmishers.

Well, I would add that skirmishers also only engage briefly rather than a prolonged fight.

 

[nokmirt]

If grenadiers were added they should be an elite type unit. Guard grenadiers were the biggest and strongest men, but also experienced. Usually a soldier would have to go through three or more campaigns to be considered for duty in a guard regiment. These troops always had the best equipment and food. They were essentially the cream of the crop.

In CiV they could add a whole line of elite units that are specialized and can upgrade. The number of units you can recruit should be limited. The other thing they could do is add a promotion to say musketmen, if they are able to achieve so many promotions, leading to the grenadier promotion, and finally to a guard promotion, that unit could then be upgraded into a guard infantry unit. This way there does not have to be a specific tech for grenadiers or guard units. Units that excel in combat can go from grenadiers, and upgrade to guards. This should be able to occur in each era from the Renaissance up. There could also be an upgrade similar to this for mounted units. For instance, the horse grenadier guards.

The question is can a unit be upgraded if it gains a certain promotion? I suppose it is possible. This idea should be moved to ideas and suggestions. First, I would like to see if people think that this a feasible idea.

 

[King of Prussia]

If grenadiers were added they should be an elite type unit. Guard grenadiers were the biggest and strongest men, but also experienced. Usually a soldier would have to go through three or more campaigns to be considered for duty in a guard regiment. These troops always had the best equipment and food. They were essentially the cream of the crop.

In CiV they could add a whole line of elite units that are specialized and can upgrade. The number of units you can recruit should be limited. The other thing they could do is add a promotion to say musketmen, if they are able to achieve so many promotions, leading to the grenadier promotion, and finally to a guard promotion, that unit could then be upgraded into a guard infantry unit. This way there does not have to be a specific tech for grenadiers or guard units. Units that excel in combat can go from grenadiers, and upgrade to guards. This should be able to occur in each era from the Renaissance up. There could also be an upgrade similar to this for mounted units. For instance, the horse grenadier guards.

The question is can a unit be upgraded if it gains a certain promotion? I suppose it is possible. This idea should be moved to ideas and suggestions. First, I would like to see if people think that this a feasible idea.

I wouldn't mind if a unit got upgraded into a guard unit after doing well in compbat but my only worry is that the AI woudn't be able to use it correctly.

 

[Kurtbob]

Their main role in combat was using tactics like "hit and run",to weaken the enemy formation before the combat with other units like musketmans or cavalry,for example . Usually,they tried to take down the leaders of the enemy and they need to be light for avoiding direct combat,so the +3 movement would be justified .

Oh I know its justified. However, one of my posts was a long rant about finding the 'missing link' between crossbowmen and gattling guns and I explained why I thought giving skirmisher promotions/abilities takes them out of the line for me. I'm just being stubborn about the missing link factor.

Why not give the Skirmisher the ability to move after attacking instead of 3 movement? 1-hex ranged attack, move away, and/or swap hexes with a melee unit. Why would a player produce a movment three mounted unit that costs a resource with no defense bonus when you could have a movement three skirmisher?

 

[CivilizationRox]

What are more ideas for the missing link?

 

[Kurtbob]

The question is can a unit be upgraded if it gains a certain promotion? I suppose it is possible. This idea should be moved to ideas and suggestions. First, I would like to see if people think that this a feasible idea.

A cool idea. Some questions to get the ball rolling.

1. Could there potentially be an elite upgrade for every unit in the game?

2. What tier should the promotions be? Should it be a single promotion or a tier threshold?

3. Will it cost only experience to upgrade a unit? Or will require resources and /or gold?

4. After being upgraded, will a unit continue to follow the same unit tree or deviate into a new 'elite' tree from then on? If there is a new elite tree, can a player produce them or can they only be created through a promotion upgrade?

5. Could an elite army be created through experience producing improvements and wonders? In other words, can a unit be considered elite only through gaining experience through combat or any experience?

6. Aren't promotions an already useful gauge of elitism in the game and therefore an upgrade to a new elite unit/version based on promotions is unneeded?

 

[Kurtbob]

What are more ideas for the missing link?

How about a light cannon? Like the swedish Leatheren, Napoleon 12-pounder, or Griffen Gun? It would represent a two to three manned cannon for use by infantry against infantry.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Yeah, a 12 or even 8 pounder is what I'd suggest (Field Artillery or Light Artillery). I'd actually recommend changing the art for the current cannon to resemble something more capable of bombarding cities to even out.

 

[Kurtbob]

Yeah, a 12 or even 8 pounder is what I'd suggest (Field Artillery or Light Artillery). I'd actually recommend changing the art for the current cannon to resemble something more capable of bombarding cities to even out.

I agree. A mortar or demi would be a better unit graphic for the current cannon.