Animals in version 22h

Is it really that many turns? In my Marathon game it seems like baby spiders were becoming giant spiders faster.
I was oversimplifying. The chance/turn is 3%. If, say, you had 10 baby spiders (all unwounded) on the same turn, on average 5 of them should be Giant Spiders 23 turns later. On the other hand, 1 (on average) would be a Giant Spider 4 turns later.
 
Do you really think Dwarven Warriors will be able to defend against those powerful Horsemen like Buboes et al?
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So, it is not just a matter of having strong troops. They need the Courage too or the battle will not be joined usually.
I realise that. I look forward to the horsemen kicking my arse, if they can. But I still don't think it'll happen. By the time they appear, I'll have stronger troops and a very robust production level with my well-established cities and Overflowing dwarven vaults (not to mention forges and fully-utilized dwarven smithies).

I really think the culprit is the counter increasing whenever a barb city goes down. If it took, say, three barb cities razed to move the counter 1, it would be a lot better. Keep it at 1 per other cities, but either reduce the counter movement forward for razed barb cities, or slow down the rate at which they can pop up on the map.

I think this would make Marathon game more interesting and you could prepare better for a counter that moves too quickly now.
Actually, I think the problem is that every destroyed city has a base AC change of 1 + <city size>/4 (this is off memory since the Wiki is currently unavailable). The 1 should be removed, because a newly formed city (whether spawned for barbarians or just settled by a civ) gives that minimum of 1 AC change. If it was simply <city size>/4, then these new 'cities' wouldn't be much of a worry for the counter. Since most spawned barb cities are at 1 when they are razed, this would help with the problem you are experiencing.

By the way, I just wanted to celebrate publicly the AI-induced summoning of Hyborem. Yay! Unfortunately, despite much better land being freely available, he spawned in the middle of tundra so his growth will probably be slow. Boo!

AC counter = 55 at turn 700-ish (the Luichirp were just handed their arses by the Clan => good civ destroyed plus several razed cities)
 
He doesn't use food to grow, he sacrifices manes. So, tundra won't hold him back.

Go AI!! We are all cheering for you!
 
He doesn't use food to grow, he sacrifices manes. So, tundra won't hold him back.
Sweet!

Interestingly, he also spawned next to the uber barb city that houses Acheron. Since they are allied and Hyborem won't be surfacing to the top of the points ladder anytime soon, I guess they won't be confronting each other, but that would be a neat showdown :)
 
I realise that. I look forward to the horsemen kicking my arse, if they can. But I still don't think it'll happen. By the time they appear, I'll have stronger troops and a very robust production level with my well-established cities and Overflowing dwarven vaults (not to mention forges and fully-utilized dwarven smithies).

OK, I'm sure you know what you are doing, but I'm not sure you get it about your units being unable to engage the Four Horsemen at all without Courage to counteract the Fear they have. If the Horsemen try to attack your units, they will kill anything, but take damage. The problem is even then I don't believe you will be able to attack and kill the damaged Horseman without Courage.

Another problem is that one (or more) of the Horsemen goes about destroying as many improvements as possible and polluting the land. Again, you won't be able to stop him as you cannot attack.

I think if your unit is a Hero or very experienced you might be able to attack, but the problem I found is they didn't stand a chance against the Horseman. Only a very buffed Basium was able to do that in my experience. The trick is to have some cannon fodder (with Courage, of course) to whittle him down and then kill him with your hero/strong unit.

Anyway, I am anxious to hear about your experience when they show up. In the mean time, please try to get some Spirit Mana, OK?;)
 
I get plenty of Lions and Bears, plus way too many Wolves. But the others are quite scarce, except for the odd roving Spider or Elephant. Do all of the "menagerie" animals have lairs?
 
OK, I'm sure you know what you are doing, but I'm not sure you get it about your units being unable to engage the Four Horsemen at all without Courage to counteract the Fear they have. If the Horsemen try to attack your units, they will kill anything, but take damage. The problem is even then I don't believe you will be able to attack and kill the damaged Horseman without Courage.

The wiki isn't up, so I'll point to the code:
Spoiler :
Code:
    if (pDefender->isHasPromotion((PromotionTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForString("PROMOTION_FEAR")))
    {
        if (isHasPromotion((PromotionTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForString("PROMOTION_COURAGE")) == false && isAlive())
        {
            int iDef = pDefender->baseCombatStr(false) * 5;
            int iAtt = baseCombatStr(true) * 5;
            int iChance = 50 - iDef + iAtt;
            if (iChance <= 20)
            {
                iChance = 20;
            }
			if (GC.getGameINLINE().getSorenRandNum(100, "Fear") <= iChance)
			{
			    setMadeAttack(true);
                szBuffer = gDLL->getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_IM_AFEARED", getNameKey());
                gDLL->getInterfaceIFace()->addMessage(((PlayerTypes)getOwner()), false, GC.getDefineINT("EVENT_MESSAGE_TIME"), szBuffer, "AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS", MESSAGE_TYPE_MAJOR_EVENT, "Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Fear.dds", (ColorTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForString("COLOR_RED"), getX_INLINE(), getY_INLINE(), true, true);
			    bFinish = true;
			}
        }
    }

The short version is that Courage (or one that isn't alive, such as an Angel, Demon, Undead, or Golem) guarantees that ability to attack a unit with fear, but other units have a 51&#37; -5% *(the unit with fear's defensive strength) + 5% * (the potentially attacking unit's offensive strength), with a minimum of 21% chance of successfully attacking.

So with 5x the number of (normally) required units, you should be able to take one out.
 
Thanks for that clarification. Isn't it true that more experienced units have a better shot at overcoming the Fear? For example, I sent a hero, I think it was Kithra Kyriel, to attack one of the Horsemen. However, with little experience, and no Courage, even Kithra could not attack.

My point in previous posts about the counter moving too quickly in Marathon games and the Horsemen showing up too quickly before you can even get Tier 3 units, is underscored by what you wrote.

Think about how many Axemen or Hunters without Courage you would need to kill a Horseman.;)
 
I get plenty of Lions and Bears, plus way too many Wolves. But the others are quite scarce, except for the odd roving Spider or Elephant. Do all of the "menagerie" animals have lairs?
No, only Lions and Bears have lairs (and wolves spawn from Wolf Packs).

Solution will probably require some sort of counter for each animal type to both ensure they don't grow out of control when counter is too high, and to force some spawns after normal barbarians have started to spawn when counter is too low.
 
Thanks for that clarification. Isn't it true that more experienced units have a better shot at overcoming the Fear? For example, I sent a hero, I think it was Kithra Kyriel, to attack one of the Horsemen. However, with little experience, and no Courage, even Kithra could not attack.
No. Levels help with resisting spells (in many cases), but not effects from promotions (like Fear). However, any offensive-strength affecting promotion would help (like Heroic Strength I).

My point in previous posts about the counter moving too quickly in Marathon games and the Horsemen showing up too quickly before you can even get Tier 3 units, is underscored by what you wrote.

Think about how many Axemen or Hunters without Courage you would need to kill a Horseman.;)
I'd tend to use Skeletons if I was worried about this - Death and Poison resistance, immunity to Fear, Summonable via Adepts with Death I, they last, and they're expendable. Note that that doesn't mean that the Armageddon counter shouldn't be scaled by game speed - it probably should. I'm merely pointing out a solution in the interim.
 
No. Levels help with resisting spells (in many cases), but not effects from promotions (like Fear). However, any offensive-strength affecting promotion would help (like Heroic Strength I).


I'd tend to use Skeletons if I was worried about this - Death and Poison resistance, immunity to Fear, Summonable via Adepts with Death I, they last, and they're expendable. Note that that doesn't mean that the Armageddon counter shouldn't be scaled by game speed - it probably should. I'm merely pointing out a solution in the interim.

Yes, adepts is about all you would have and hopefully you would get Necromancy to be able to get Death mana to summon the skeletons. But, you might as well go for Divination and get Spirit mana and Courage. My problem in some games was that I just didn't have any available mana nodes and my starting mana didn't help.

Wow, I wonder how many skeletons it would take to take down a Horseman?;)
 
Since animals and "barbarians" are being sepearted in function (and through a mod, barbs can actually hunt animals) it leads to some new interesting early and mid game fun.

I have some ideas on this. Specifically, I think it'd be awesome to see the "non-civ" units divided even more.

Barbarians (a rival non-controlled civ), Animals (as they are now), Beasts (animals that adhere to specific terrain/climate), and finally "Monsters" (Your garden variety "I dont know where this unit goes" unit.

Barbarians would function as they do now. Getting free units, building cities, constantly razing/capturing your cities and ravaging your country side. As per normal wonderful barbarian behaviors.

Animals
would function as they do now. Spawning, harassing your explorers and expansion plans. Also capturable to fit in with the FFH world.

Beasts.
These buggers you could arrange to have ONLY travel in certain areas. This could be Giant spiders among others.

The giant spider may only be allowed in Jungle, Forests, and similar features. Perhaps they'd be given the potential of getting access to new terrains by promotion. "Pit spider" evolution/promotion would allow them to travel on deserts, and plains. "Crag spider" may allow them to traverse hills and mountains (a definate advantage). Each "beast" would be limited to certain terrain - but would be very deadly in those terrains, and whatever "den" is created would be even more deadly. The "good side" is that perhaps some sort of reward is given for eliminating beasts. Perhaps "gold from hides" would be a good boon. Or den's might become very rare and very potent luxury resource tiles when destroyed. This allowes for myriad beasts of D&D lore - AND if myriad beasts were encoded into the game, it might be rare to see any one kind of them. An "Ice Wyrm" found only in glaciar spots, might never appear for 20 games, if there were other compeditors for spawning and terrain type. So seeing one, and slaying it would be all the more fun.


Finally, Monsters. I see monsters as being the "catch" all for fun, unique, and special units that the team will most likely develop into questing and other fun things for scenario's later.

Skeletons and many summons would be "monsters". Each individual monster would obey its own unique rules. Skeletons would have many animal, and potentially "bestial" and "barbarian" traits. They can spawn anywhere, they're not animals, but they can have "spawn point/dens".

Monster may also be a nice catagory for Dragons. Unless they get their own.


Just my thoughts.
-Qes

ADD: Potential Ideas for "beasts"
Spoiler :


Offspring are assumed to be "minor" or "baby" versions of each and are expected to "mature" after a given amount of time (depending on balance)

All units and dens are assumed to give "gold" as reward for their destruction (depending on balance) unless otherwise stated.


Giant Spider
- Forests/Jungle
- is invisable
- can upgrade to access to desert/plains and mountain/hills and tundra/ice
- Can produce offspring (spawn)

Ice Wyrm
- Ice
- can upgrade to access tundra
- gains xp slowly over time
- Den produces a luxury resource if destroyed

Crag Hag - Mountains/Hills
- can "capture" units (making your units into barbarians)
- can make "fake" dens/spawnpoints
- Actual Den has combat ability and poison damage.
- Actual Den produces a free settler or worker (freed people from the crag hag) if destroyed.

Sand Tyrant - Desert
- is invisible if fortified
- has "devour" ability (insta kill weakest unit in stack)
- Den is invisable

Gorzilla - Jungle
- Gains bonus experiance per victory
- can produce offspring
- Baby gorzilla has a movement of 0 and gives all other units in stack a movement total of 0 (family care-taking)

Man of War
- Coastal/Sea
- has Poison damage
- produces offspring
- can pillage
- movement = 0 on resources tiles (fish/whale, clam)

Yeti - Tundra/Mountain
- can "mate" with Sasquatch (if in ending its turn in the same tile as a sasquatch, it will have a high chance of producing a hybrid - which would have terrain access to all 4 terrain types.)
- Produces offspring
- Can enter cultural boundries

Sasquatch - Jungle/Forest
- can "mate" with Yeti (if in ending its turn in the same tile as a Yeti, it will have a high chance of producing a hybrid - which would have terrain access to all 4 terrain types.)
- Produces offspring
- Can enter cultural boundries

Razor Back - Grasslands/Plains
- Will attack anything (barbarian/animal/beast)
- If it destroys another den - it replaces it with one of its own.
- If den is destroyed, a metal resource will appear in the tile.

Formians - Hills/Plains
- Can upgrade to access any terrain
- Den's are "Hives" and are hidden/invisable.
- Hives spawn Formians anywhere within 5 spaces of the Hive (and still in appropriate terrain)
- Hives spawn more frequently than Dens
- Hives can be captured (and produce friendly formians) by scouts with the appropriate ability.


Just some ideas.
 
Some interesting ideas there, QES. I really like your categorizations of the bad guys in FFH and they leave the door open to all type of possible units.

I just have one request: please, no Great People or Wonders in barbarian cities, OK?

One additional note: I know each game is different and game starting variables can determine a lot. In my current game, I have seen very few animals after the real barbs arrived. I have been pounded for nearly 200 turns with virtually no let up. Of course, meanwhile, the AI civs are expanding. I already have 4 Warriors maxed out with 100 XP and several more with plenty of XP too. I have not been able to think about building a second city yet. So, for me, in this game anyway, there is no animal issue.
 
Some interesting ideas there, QES. I really like your categorizations of the bad guys in FFH and they leave the door open to all type of possible units.

I just have one request: please, no Great People or Wonders in barbarian cities, OK?

One additional note: I know each game is different and game starting variables can determine a lot. In my current game, I have seen very few animals after the real barbs arrived. I have been pounded for nearly 200 turns with virtually no let up. Of course, meanwhile, the AI civs are expanding. I already have 4 Warriors maxed out with 100 XP and several more with plenty of XP too. I have not been able to think about building a second city yet. So, for me, in this game anyway, there is no animal issue.

What if the "Great people" that barbarians produced didnt have any special abilities - but instead were just 6 different types of "uber monster" that could roam the country side? It'd be using the great people production mechanic - but not the great people mechanics themselves.

-Qes
 
What if the "Great people" that barbarians produced didnt have any special abilities - but instead were just 6 different types of "uber monster" that could roam the country side? It'd be using the great people production mechanic - but not the great people mechanics themselves.

-Qes

Oh look they've brought a cave troll...
 
However, if the barbs target them, their civs will be destroyed in short order. One Warrior defender per city just won't cut it.

One more thing that I have found is when you have a lot of open spaces like that, barb cities pop up like weeds with connecting roads. If you try to go and take them out, the counter moves up and more pop up. I find managing the barb city explosion about as challenging as the 'raging' barbs themselves. The AI civs, by the way, make the counter move along quickly as they always go out to raze barb cities and the new ones that take their place.
I noticed several times that a strong civ such as Elohim was wiped out very fast by the barbs. And playing agaist barbs is mostly not so diffucult resp. interesting as against other, stronger civs.[/QUOTE]In a Marathon game, IMO, the counter moves too quickly for this reason.[/QUOTE]Not only in a marathon game, my friend! Also at normal speed, just by these many barb cities. They should not influence the AC so much, more in a positive way. Raging a barb city should reduce the AC.

And the sanctifying spell I usually do not have so early.
 
- can "mate" with Sasquatch
Would this be a Sasqueti or a Yuatch?

Crag Hag - Mountains/Hills
- can "capture" units (making your units into barbarians)
will barbarians be hostile to beasts?

Man of War - Coastal/Sea
- produces offspring
- movement = 0 on resources tiles (fish/whale, clam)
that's just mean =p

nice entries btw
 
What if the "Great people" that barbarians produced didnt have any special abilities - but instead were just 6 different types of "uber monster" that could roam the country side? It'd be using the great people production mechanic - but not the great people mechanics themselves.

-Qes

I love this idea! Instead of giving them Captain Ostanes every $#@! game, give them another Orthus-like bad guy. I mean, what ever happens to Captain Ostanes? Ever see a barb with a Great Commander attached?:p

I know it has been mentioned before, but after Orthus is killed, it can be a long wait until the Four Horsemen appear. Fill the interim with a Great Barb Bad Guy!
 
I noticed several times that a strong civ such as Elohim was wiped out very fast by the barbs. And playing agaist barbs is mostly not so diffucult resp. interesting as against other, stronger civs.
In a Marathon game, IMO, the counter moves too quickly for this reason.[/QUOTE]Not only in a marathon game, my friend! Also at normal speed, just by these many barb cities. They should not influence the AC so much, more in a positive way. Raging a barb city should reduce the AC.

And the sanctifying spell I usually do not have so early.[/QUOTE]

I have found the barb city issue manageable in Epic games. However, in Marathon games it has become almost funny. Two things should be done to better manage the counter in marathon games. Both pertain to the barb cities, which, IMO, really are the main cause of the counter advancing:

1. Don't increase the counter one for each barb city razed. Make it .33 or .25. I think Sanctify has this same non-one-for-one deal.

2. Slow down the rate at which new barb cities are settled. Sometimes it is just ridiculous. I have taken out a barb city on my border (but just out of sight), only to have a new one appear a few turns later. Barb cities are a real nuisance and if you don't have the gold to capture them, you must raze, and there goes the counter increasing again.
 
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