Another deity game ...

[Giaur]

Deities are more popular in BtS. I do not know why, perhaps it's easier.
It's no walkthrough. It's just demogame, but there will be many descriptions (as in my AW Charlemagne demogame). It's not a challenge, because I can win 10 percent deity games. Why? I do not know. Perhaps because I am aiming for conquest which is more difficult on deity. But ... sometimes conquest may be rescue. The annoying thing is GNP in infoscreen which absolutely tells you nothing. While in the time of war every unit counts and numbers win wars (not unlike in Vanilla, where numbers did not win wars). It's so called improved AI. It has some mistakes, but it definitely improved anyway. So let's pray for many wars.
I checked in Worldbuilder the shape of the world to ensure that we won't be boxed with only one civ or we won't be isolated. I could make more simple move - check Pangea, but Pangea is a little boring, is not it? There are two equal in size continents and the question is: Are we boxed with 2 or 3 civs? I do not know. And I do not know what option is easier: it does not matter: it's just demogame and I do not expect myself to win. I will try to show the mental path of a good player. We won't be farming too much. Mainly cottages. Simple, efficient and not-dependant on terrain. Civil Service comes too late. Specialists require many health resources and happiness resources. Specialists suck in wartime. I just doubt there is SE at all. But we will need specialists to lightbulbing, for academies etc. I did not checked the neighbours - that might be the cause of our loss. Boudica, H.Capac are backstubbers, we all know that. On deity, preconstruction wars usually end tragically.

Some words about organization. I expect myself to do writeups every day (as in previous demogame). And I will reserve the right to retire when I think game is won or lost (as in previous demogame). Everyone is invite to give a shot (as in previous demogame) and this time we won't be limited to No-tech trade, AW options. If you decide to play, submit 1AD save please.

Why deity? Generally immortal is too easy. Deity is too difficult, but that's not the point. One won deity game can give more satisfaction than many immortal ones. Another thing is that on immortal I found myself that I run out of buildings and producing units started to make sense. On deity there is always something to build . Wonder spamming became permanent on immortal.

The leader: Zara Yakob
Unit: Oromo Warrior - Musket with drill1+drill2 and immune to first strikes
Building: Stele - monument with addiotional bonus (+25% culture)
Trait1: Creative - +2 culture per city, cheaper library, thetre, colloseum
Trait2: Organized - -50% upkeep, cheaper courthouse, lighthouse, factory
Techs: I am not sure, but Hunting, Mining I think

I like financial more, but Willem was played in Uberfish thread. And cheap courthouses are always nice.

The start ...

We have scout and settler, irigated corn, many forests and hills that can be mined without bronzeworking. That's good. But there are some rivers - that's even better. No happiness resource at hand - that's not good. We do not have access to sea, so maybe some chance for blocking some land. Boring, I know.

The save ... I wish you luck, so wish me luck too.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/70897/Giaur_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[shyuhe]

Interesting setup. Oromo warriors are awesome draft units. I'll try this as well. I'm praying for better luck than our SG

I think organized is at least as strong as financial at immortal/deity. Maintenance and civic costs are very big and cutting those down with cheap courthouses + the organized bonus is nice.

BtS immortal is slightly harder than warlords emperor and definitely easier than warlords immortal. I think BtS deity is between warlords immortal and deity. The reduction in AI bonuses has made a huge difference.

 

[CellKu]

I am looking forward to reading your writeups. I am very interested to learn about your strategic ideas, e.g. why you chose to go for a certain tech etc. Do you set any "milestones", such as "until then it would be wise to reach ..." (e.g. liberalism) or something like that?
I take it, you are not aiming for building any wonders. Or do you? If so, which will you aim for?

Thanks for your efforts and good luck!
CellKu

 

[ungy]

looking forward to your game

 

[Giaur]

Played till 350AD, the moment when liberalism is probably lost. Report will be ready very soon.

btw. I rarely see such low-food maps.

 

[Giaur]

Oh, bless this topic. I do not have to use spoilers, you do

First part of writeup is concerning the session I played yesterday.
Research path: Agriculture -> Archery -> The wheel -> BW -> Pottery.

I moved settler north towards plainhills. Capital was founded and this was low commerce and low-food city. So no sense of going for the Oracle. At least there were many grasslands and rivers. First seven turns passed and no contact. I knew that I am on a big continent, so started researching archery next. I might experience some barbs attacks. 15 turns passed and still no contact. That was wierd. First thought - rapid expansion. The problem was that map revealed not many food resources.

Food resourrces were placed to the north. Not the best position, while I wanted to block some land with my creative leader. There was sea to the north and soon Gandhi and Suleiman appeared from the south.
Few food resources - no whiping. I decided to settle to the south only to block some land. This jungle-gem city had completely no food, but 4 forests enough to chop granary and library. Other good thing was that all workable tiles were grass-nature. So at the begging more farms, few cottages. Not to run specialists, but to let grow my cities. Before settler was in, I build road towards my next city spot. Chopping is good, but roads are good to - both for land-grabbing and commerce.
Gandhi - peaceful builder who fancies in shrines and religions, does not favour expansion too much. He beelines to Alpha first, but this time he was beaten to it by some other leader. Ganghi was hindu, so I decided to build road towards his borders. Maybe it will speed up religion spread.
Suleiman - both rivals are nice to conquer, but we must trigger the machine of war first. It will be quite difficult on this low-food map. Both are philo, so many superspecialists, academies, shrines etc.
The map revealed the source of Copper - but again - no food. I should have explored the map more than I did. Many years after founding copper city I noticed the source of sugar near this city, but I lost that resource.
One archer moved south-west to find another city spot, which could block Gandhi's expansion even more. More problematic is expansion to the east - few food resources again, desert which can strike the economy (maintanance costs). I remember that I considered grabbing corn far to the east, but I resigned. Maintanance would be a killer.
I expected more troubles from barbs, but fogbusting succeeded, with help of my neighbours, who were scouting the entire continent. Two barb cities appeared, but both were taken quite early by Caesar (new face) and Suleiman. When I met Caesar I got stomachache - we must be cautious with that leader. Good thing was that soon the entire continent was hindu. All leaders were pleased with me, so I expected Gandhi to be a victim of a sneaky attack.

No save this time, I will attach 350AD save very soon ...

 

[CellKu]

Giaur, I tried your game and post my 1 AD save. It's the first time I am playing deity and I am glad I am still alive... It is also the first time that I got techs as a present from other civs (without asking!). I must be doing really badly that they are so nice to me...

Here are some thoughts about my game:

Spoiler :

I am really doing lousy tech-wise... I have no clue how to evaluate my game with regard to deity. So, I would be happy if others would comment on that (without hijacking the threat too much ). Oh and please: when you look at my city placement - I would really like to know whether I should have taken other spots) -, don't blame me too much about Derbar something or what it is called. I wanted to block Suleyman and when I got there, the barbs had already settled their city close to where I wanted to go originally (to the river, but on "my" side). Since, I had only one axeman accompanying my settler, there was no way of taking over that barb city.

1.) Building:
The first things I did were building workers and archers and three settlers to block the south and hook up the bronze. Chopped a bit, but tried not to exaggerate, since I was sure I needed some forests for a wonder later. In two of the three cities I built a worker first, then library/granary.

2.) Teching:
Tech-wise I researched in the same order in the beginning as Giaur, then went for writing, aesthetics - traded that for math (Suleyman) and for fishing, AH, masonry and some money (Caesar) - then myst-poly-literature. Now I target CoL. Perhaps I should have researched myst earlier because of the stele? I am not sure whether I will be able to be the first to lib (someone has already researched philo). Would a different tech-order have been better?

3.) Miscellaneous:
I was able to block Ghandi - at least a bit. It seems as if he can't expand anymore and is stuck with 6 cities. I learned quite a bit during this game, since I failed miserably the first few times I tried it!

a.) Religion:
I agreed to open borders with Ghandi, Suleyman and Caesar; adopted Hinduism as state religion - so we are all good friends right now. The AP has been built (by a Hindu, I suspect Suleyman) and Suleyman won the first election.

b.) Great people:
I ran two scientists in my capital, got a GS and built an academy. Lateron I switched them back to working tiles, since I wanted to finish additional settlers. ASAP I want to get them back to churn out GS. However, I want to have the NE also asap to facilitate that process.

c.) Wonder:
I am very glad that I got the Great Library just a turn or so before 1AD. I was sure I wouldn't make it as Suleyman and others had Literature way before me. But I chopped like crazy and had the marble hooked up just before I got Literature.

4.) Plans
I plan to settle a few more cities up north - the region I blocked - and perhaps in between, as there is quite some space available. Moreover, I try to rush to lib (via lightbulbing with GS), perhaps I could trade at least some of the techs I get. The next target on my way is CoL (to reduce maintenance)

Giaur, I am very interested to hear what you (and others) think I could have done better.

And here the 1 AD-save:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42699/Giaur_AD-0001.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Giaur]

@CellKu: Your land-grabbing is immpressive. You grabbed more land than I did. You can settle in between as you said in 2 spots at least. That means - 8 cities at least. Two cities to the east (one yours and one barb) may block Suleiman effectively. So another good city - fish and some other food resource.
I did not look closer at your city placement. This map may justify many city placements, because there is not much food. But you did well grabbing both rice&gems from Gandhi. Of course this could result in economical troubles. However you settled in place while I moved initial settler north, so you could allow yourself to expand to the south more. I would say very strong position.

When I want expand quickly, I build workers first in a new city too. And so it was on this map. I knew that I might need them to chop Great Library and improve marble.
But I did not traded for fishing, mysticism. I asked for it. Those are very cheap techs. Pleased civs will give you fishing for sure and sometimes give you mysticism (I spent 1 turn on 30-40 percent towards mysticism and then asked for it). I do not know if WFYABTA concerns those cases, but there were higher priorities - The Great Library. I built it earlier I think - 300BC perhaps, so you might have have more economical troubles, but if someone asked me, I would rather played your game than my own from 1AD .

Last thing. Even in cottage economy, farms are neccessery for growth. For example your copper city - one farm would increased growth by 50 percent. You may cottage those farms later. In my capital in 350AD I have both farms and cottages. I can choose improvement I want to work. Capital usually needs better growth. For small cities this strategy works, cause you do not have to work both farms and cottages - you may choose. Of course solid number of workers is needed.

 

[CellKu]

Giaur, thanks a lot for your comments and advice! I appreciate them very much! Also thank you for your encouragement concerning my land-grabbing. I hope it will not break me eventually...

Actually, I never dared to ask for a tech before, because I thought that such a question would necessarily have a negative result (-1). That it can be a viable way of teching is one of the many new things I learned from that game.

I am impressed that you had the Great Library around 300 BC. Am I that much later because of my overexpansion? I built Debar something (I can never remember that name, it's the one far to the east) quite late. So it should not have affected my research rate until literature... With regard to the rice/gems city: with two gems I had hoped that this city would pay for itself. Well, when I have courthouses, then the situation should definitely improve. (Especially when I can also hook up the dye.)

Thanks also for your advice with regard to the copper city. I will build a farm there asap. The same goes for the capital.

One more question: how many units did you have around 1 AD? I am still worried whether I might get backstabbed (well not by Ghandi, but perhaps by one of the others?). Oh, and do you whip? Usually I do, but this time I preferred chopping, because of the scarcity of food resources.

Thanks again!
CellKu

P.S.: I am looking forward to your next writeup. It will be highly interesting

 

[Giaur]

My game failed again. Retired in 1000AD, despite I grabbed liberalism. Sorry for that, just 1) map was difficult 2) I am little tired of Civ4 at all. But still I am very curious of your games. We can still talk and try to make sophisticated topic of this one. The worst thing is that I played previous day and next day I did not remember anything helpful to make some interesting report. Generally it would be good to answer why I failed. Simply mistakes. What mistakes - more difficult to answer. For sure mentioned farms. I built too many of them. My growing strategy was badly balanced. I should have considered how many health resources I had - but it would be some sort of genious strategy. To use that, you must be a genious. Played completely with no better concept - too few experience on deity. General concept existed - earn some money to upgrade troops and wait for rifles, infantry. I managed to win once on deity medieval war with a rival that had twice as many cities as I do, but once is too few to have at least an answer, some vision - what is strong? When to attack? And the most important - how many troops? Too many hiding and too few decisions. Peaceful building won't save you on deity. The main trouble with regular deity game is beiing very limited about wonders. AIs cities are bigger and probably have bonus to wonder production. I do not like that. Advanced start is easier, but at least won't bind your hands completely. I am not talking only about bonuses from wonders, but about culture as well. There were many succession games dedicated to culture. This is very interesting aspect of civ4. Still industrious is very strong in regular deity game, because there are national wonders.

I will be honest with you and I am leaving my save. You can do from that what you want (criticize f.e.). I won't leave this topic yet, I'd rather won't continue this game. Sorry again. And please attach your games. I do not like the attention to much, but there is no such threat under me. Recently my topics are beiing ignored completely. This one is successful
btw. I started another (advanced start) game with this leader, but as I said I need some time to rest cause of civ4.

I hope you will have more luck in your games ...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/70897/Giaur_AD-1040.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Giaur]

It's some sort of consternation. You are playing your best and are convinced you did well, but research ain't that impressive, production sucks and few troops.

 

[Giaur]

@CellKu and the others:
I need to sleep with my defeat to decide how to dig up from that hole - I mean the purpose of this thread.

 

[CellKu]

I am sorry you lost. I hope you won't feel driven away from civ... (your post sounds a bit like that.)

With regard to this thread/game:
Maybe, you could turn it (or a new thread) into a kind of joint game thread? One in which everybody could chime in and make his/her comments what would be the best to do next. Like Sisutil's All Leader Challenge threads. But this one would be for deity. That way everybody could learn from the others. (That might also raise the participation level of this thread.) Well, just a thought... What do you think?

And, finally: I read the comments of several people in Snaaty's strategy thread who asked for a game with less food resources etc. (overall they wanted to see the same strategy with a worse start). Well, that would be a perfect game for that. Don't you think so?

CellKu

P.S.: Actually, I tried to implement Snaaty's strategy. However, I am sure, Snaaty and others would be much better.

 

[Giaur]

@CellKu:
No problem, you can submit my game in Snaaty's thread. However I do not actually know what happens there right now.

Making this thread a thread Sisutil-thread-type is impossible, because few people can manage deity still. However I would be very glad hearing some experienced players comclusions. But it's easier to check Snaaty's thread (however little marble-dependant thread ).

Few people can manage deity with any conditions and those people are silent. I am not silent, but I usually fail deity .

There was once running great Willem game once in Uberfish thread. Many players matched deity with good contribution to this forum. But a thought this thread might be similar brings me with headache. Open game is the best thing that works, but I repeat - few players are attracted by deity. With a loss for other players who wish to learn something .

Some other reason for failing deity is attitude. People go back from work and sit at the front of the computer. They play their turns, but they are not civ freaks, despite of the name of this forum . I am a civ freak, but I do not like milestones. Thinking can be exhausting. People do not need that. They want the game to be hard enough to be attractive and easy enough to attractive too. But ... people are learning - sooner or later they will find emperor, immortal too easy. That's the curse of this and any other game. Personally I am surprized that people did not get bored till now.

A little philosophy. You have to forgive me, it's the only place I can allow it myself.

Making huge writeups as in some my previous open games can be very attracting, but someone has to do that and I am little tired of this.

So the best thing I can do is to take a sleep. Little exausting day for many reasons ...

 

[shyuhe]

I play most of my games at immortal. I can't do deity unless I get a good starting area/resource combination. Why not try running it like mutineer's version? He ran an SG where people would each take a save (any) and play it out 40 turns or so. Then post and people could choose any save and play again. It's like the trash format but it helps to take out a lot of the ridiculousness of deity (and may encourage more players to try it).

 

[Giaur]

@Shyuhe: You are right about trash system succesion game. I had that idea one day after our Deity Suicide Mission Only i never made succesion game before. It might have ended like this one demogame However I am quite sure there would be a lot of interest. I will think about it tonight and if so, I will leave link-invitation ... Ideas is my strong feature, however I still do not understand why my gunship deity open game failed

 

[CellKu]

I play most of my games at immortal. I can't do deity unless I get a good starting area/resource combination. Why not try running it like mutineer's version? He ran an SG where people would each take a save (any) and play it out 40 turns or so. Then post and people could choose any save and play again. It's like the trash format but it helps to take out a lot of the ridiculousness of deity (and may encourage more players to try it).

I like that idea, as well! That way you can see what others did and what you might do better. Moreover, you can still continue the game, even if you made some mistakes. That way you are not always stuck in the ancient age, but could play and experience modern times, as well. That would be less frustrating.

So, implementing skyuhe's suggestion, I would envision something like a "deity university" - courses with increasing difficulty: First, with a very strong leader to facilitate the beginning (and perhaps with an easier map, e.g. where you can block other civs more easily). Then a weaker leader and a not so good map etc...

Why not start with a discussion threat to see whether that has an appeal to other players and to raise interest among them. Everyone who is interested could vote for the leader (and perhaps map) that should be played and proceed with other preliminary discussions.

CellKu

 

[ungy]

I would love a thread like that.

I'm still pretty inconsistent on immortal and have not tackled deity but I think the idea of a good start and a strong leader makes sense.

 

[David_e08]

Hey guys i am very new to civ just got past warlord and i am on noble. LOL i tried to play this map but i do not have the skills to manage each city and sumtimes(most times) do not know what to build. i wouldnt mind trying shyuhe's idea so i can play the same map than compare mine to others to see what i can do better.

 

[Giaur]

Ok, here is the thread ...
I am not sure if this is what we wanted. I am not familiar with english. I need your confirmation or refuse (shyuhe, CellKu, ungy), before I recruit more players ...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=251408